# Medicare Negotiating Lower Drug Prices = Stealth Socialized Medicine! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 15, 2006, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medicare-negotiating-lower-drug-prices-stealth-socialized-medicine/380506 "2006-11-15T10:47:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2006, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medicare-negotiating-lower-drug-prices-stealth-socialized-medicine/380506/41 "2006-11-21T18:31:48Z")
[QUOTE=Jonathan Chance] 1. As opposed to what, Dave? Health care taking 20%+ of gross domestic product? [Cite.](http://www.nchc.org/facts/cost.shtml) 2. I’m speaking politically. Voters will demand it upon pain of firing congressmen and such. At that point it’s provide or die they’ll provide and damned to the cost. 3. I’m pretty doubtful about your numbers. Again, by my cite above the average cost in 2004 was over $6200 per person. Even a transfer of 50% of that figure in NHS taxation (which I’m not willing to concede) would allow for $930,000,000,000 And I concede your knowledge of insurance, Dave, you know that. But simply saying ‘nothing will work’ isn’t finding a solution for a system that’s pretty clearly unsustainable. It’s broken and we need a fix. The issue becomes what sort of fixing and what sort of rationing we want. [/QUOTE] JC, I don’t think the system is all that broken. There are things that need to be fixed, absolutely. I think government funded health care for poor people is definitely needed, that alone would put a huge bite in the number of uninsured in this country. Tort reform is needed to bring down costs, as it a reduction in the crushing paperwork which is choking the system right now. Many mandated coverage laws need to be abolished. The government needs to stop preventing people from crossing state lines to get better priced coverage, and people need the ability to group together to share costs. Every state should do what Maryland has done with their MHIP plan, to make coverage available to people with health issues. Out of pocket medical expenses should be tax deductible across the board, not just if they exceed 71/2% of your income. That’s just off the top of my head. Your own link agrees: > [@](#): > > Experts agree that our health care system is riddled with inefficiencies, excessive administrative expenses, inflated prices, poor management, and inappropriate care, waste and fraud. These problems significantly increase the cost of medical care and health insurance for employers and workers and affect the security of families. THESE are the problems that need to be addressed, and by and large, these problems were caused by inefficient, cumbersome and illogical government regulations and mandates. THAT’S what needs to be reduced and eliminated. Saying “Well, the solution to problems caused by government waste and cost is more government” is just plain crazy. You should know this, you’ve worked with the feds before. In you experience, has government ever done anything more efficiently and at a lower cost than the private sector? Ever? ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2006, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medicare-negotiating-lower-drug-prices-stealth-socialized-medicine/380506/42 "2006-11-21T19:34:28Z")
[QUOTE=ralph124c] Well, as i say, you might well wish to use a different chemotherapy drug-say a new drug developed in , say France. the Medicare people only approve the offered drug-so, you are SOL. it is YOUR life, don’t forget-some faceless bureaucrat doesn’t give hoot in heel whether you survive or not! :eek: [/QUOTE] As opposed to now where it’s some corporate drone of the insurance company who decides what medicine they’ll cover. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2006, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medicare-negotiating-lower-drug-prices-stealth-socialized-medicine/380506/43 "2006-11-21T21:04:29Z")
[QUOTE=Tuckerfan] As opposed to now where it’s some corporate drone of the insurance company who decides what medicine they’ll cover. [/QUOTE] TOTALLY different. Totally. And I’m sure someone will be in shortly to explain why one is Free Enterprise (and therefore good) and the other would be Gummint, and therefore bad. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2006, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medicare-negotiating-lower-drug-prices-stealth-socialized-medicine/380506/44 "2006-11-21T21:07:41Z")
[QUOTE=Weirddave] In you experience, has government ever done anything more efficiently and at a lower cost than the private sector? Ever? [/QUOTE] Check out the VA hospitals. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2006, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medicare-negotiating-lower-drug-prices-stealth-socialized-medicine/380506/45 "2006-11-21T21:15:34Z")
[QUOTE=jsgoddess] Check out the VA hospitals. [/QUOTE] I have. _shudder_. Wanna know who some of my biggest clients are? People covered by the VA who still want to pay for health insurance on top of their VA benefits so they can get the medical treatment they need. I get a couple of these a month. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2006, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medicare-negotiating-lower-drug-prices-stealth-socialized-medicine/380506/46 "2006-11-21T21:26:05Z")
[QUOTE=Weirddave] I have. _shudder_. Wanna know who some of my biggest clients are? People covered by the VA who still want to pay for health insurance on top of their VA benefits so they can get the medical treatment they need. I get a couple of these a month. [/QUOTE] > [@](#): > > The VA runs the largest integrated health-care system in the country, with more than 1,400 hospitals, clinics and nursing homes employing 14,800 doctors and 61,000 nurses. And by a number of measures, this government-managed health-care program–socialized medicine on a small scale–is beating the marketplace. For the sixth year in a row, VA hospitals last year scored higher than private facilities on the University of Michigan’s American Customer Satisfaction Index, based on patient surveys on the quality of care received. The VA scored 83 out of 100; private institutions, 71. And it’s way cheaper, too. You were saying? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2006, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medicare-negotiating-lower-drug-prices-stealth-socialized-medicine/380506/47 "2006-11-21T21:31:25Z")
Forgot the [link](http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1376238-1,00.html). ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2006, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medicare-negotiating-lower-drug-prices-stealth-socialized-medicine/380506/48 "2006-11-21T21:32:21Z")
[QUOTE=jsgoddess] And it’s way cheaper, too. You were saying? [/QUOTE] I’m saying that I’ve been to VA hospitals and wouldn’t care to repeat the experience. I’m saying that I get a fair number of clients who want to buy private insurance because they are not getting the care they desire using the VA system. What are you saying with your unattributed quote? ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2006, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medicare-negotiating-lower-drug-prices-stealth-socialized-medicine/380506/49 "2006-11-21T21:32:59Z")
[QUOTE=jsgoddess] You were saying? [/QUOTE] Isn’t this the part where someone gets to whip out on **dave** a “The plural of anecdote is not data”? -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2006, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medicare-negotiating-lower-drug-prices-stealth-socialized-medicine/380506/50 "2006-11-21T21:36:08Z")
[QUOTE=Merijeek] Isn’t this the part where someone gets to whip out on **dave** a “The plural of anecdote is not data”? -Joe [/QUOTE] That would be a valid point-if I was doing anything other than relating my own experiences. Or are you going to pull a Miller and start putting words in my mouth? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2006, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medicare-negotiating-lower-drug-prices-stealth-socialized-medicine/380506/51 "2006-11-21T21:36:26Z")
Here’s another point: > [@](#): > > According to a Rand Corp. study, the VA system provides two-thirds of the care recommended by such standards bodies as the Agency for Healthcare Research & Quality. Far from perfect, granted – but the nation’s private-sector hospitals provide only 50%. And while studies show that 3% to 8% of the nation’s prescriptions are filled erroneously, the VA’s prescription accuracy rate is greater than 99.997%, a level most hospitals only dream about. That’s largely because the VA has by far the most advanced computerized medical-records system in the U.S. And for the past six years the VA has outranked private-sector hospitals on patient satisfaction in an annual consumer survey conducted by the National Quality Research Center at the University of Michigan. This keeps happening despite the fact that the VA spends an average of $5,000 per patient, vs. the national average of $6,300. From [here](http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/06_29/b3993061.htm) Of course, Business Week might be a commie rag for all I know. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2006, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medicare-negotiating-lower-drug-prices-stealth-socialized-medicine/380506/52 "2006-11-21T21:39:40Z")
[QUOTE=Weirddave] That would be a valid point-if I was doing anything other than relating my own experiences. Or are you going to pull a Miller and start putting words in my mouth? [/QUOTE] So your opinion isn’t formed by your anecdotes? You’re not arguing your opinion…you’re arguing facts with hard cites? Because it sure looks like only one person is posting cites lately. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2006, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medicare-negotiating-lower-drug-prices-stealth-socialized-medicine/380506/53 "2006-11-21T21:40:43Z")
[QUOTE=Weirddave] What are you saying with your unattributed quote? [/QUOTE] I think my quotes speak for themselves. You wanted an example. I gave you one. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2006, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medicare-negotiating-lower-drug-prices-stealth-socialized-medicine/380506/54 "2006-11-21T21:46:55Z")
Ahh, a link. That wasn’t there when I went to reply. Read the article again, and then look back up the page to read what I posted earlier, post #41 . It seems that some of the very things that that article points to as reasons for the turnaround at the VA are the exact same things that I said need to be fixed in the health care system in this country. That being said, 6-8 month waits for care(as mentioned in the article) are not, in my mind, acceptable. You may not mind them, on that we must differ. I suspect that is why I am still getting people who are covered by the VA as clients. In any event, if the VA is improving, that’s very good news, our vets deserve top care. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2006, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medicare-negotiating-lower-drug-prices-stealth-socialized-medicine/380506/55 "2006-11-21T22:05:53Z")
Here’s part of what I’m talking about. That same Business Week article notes that the VA system takes care of roughly 5 million vets at a yearly cost of 35 billion dollars. That’s pretty much right on the national average for per patient cost, using the figures that Jonathan Chance linked to earlier(so I’m not really sure where the huge savings that the articles are talking about is coming from). If you extrapolate that to 300 million citizens of the US, your universal health coverage costs over 2 trillion dollars a year. The entire federal budget is only 3.5 trillion dollars, and you want to increase it by 2 TRILLION dollars a year? That’s insane. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2006, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medicare-negotiating-lower-drug-prices-stealth-socialized-medicine/380506/56 "2006-11-21T22:26:32Z")
> [@](#): > > In 2004 (the latest year data are available), total national health expenditures rose 7.9 percent – over three times the rate of inflation (1). Total spending was $1.9 TRILLION in 2004, or $6,280 per person (1). Total health care spending represented 16 percent of the gross domestic product (GDP). > > U.S. health care spending is expected to increase at similar levels for the next decade reaching $4 TRILLION in 2015, or 20 percent of GDP (2). From [here](http://www.nchc.org/facts/cost.shtml). And this is _with_ the care being not so hot, _with_ a ton of people uninsured, and _with_ extant rationing in some places (come here and look for a cardiologist. It ain’t pretty). ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2006, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medicare-negotiating-lower-drug-prices-stealth-socialized-medicine/380506/57 "2006-11-21T22:39:41Z")
[QUOTE=Weirddave] Here’s part of what I’m talking about. That same Business Week article notes that the VA system takes care of roughly 5 million vets at a yearly cost of 35 billion dollars. That’s pretty much right on the national average for per patient cost, using the figures that Jonathan Chance linked to earlier(so I’m not really sure where the huge savings that the articles are talking about is coming from). If you extrapolate that to 300 million citizens of the US, your universal health coverage costs over 2 trillion dollars a year. The entire federal budget is only 3.5 trillion dollars, and you want to increase it by 2 TRILLION dollars a year? That’s insane. [/QUOTE] So, since the number between private and public match on a per-patient basis are you willing to give up your fanatically-held “If the government does it a private business could do it for much less” stance? -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2006, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medicare-negotiating-lower-drug-prices-stealth-socialized-medicine/380506/58 "2006-11-21T22:53:00Z")
[QUOTE=Merijeek] So, since the number between private and public match on a per-patient basis are you willing to give up your fanatically-held “If the government does it a private business could do it for much less” stance? -Joe [/QUOTE] No, I am not. I pointed out some things earlier in the thread that IMO needed to be done to help bring health care costs under control in this country. The VA has instituted a lot of these, and as a consequence it’s costs have fallen to the point where they are on par with private health coverage. That’s a fantastic achievement for a government agency. Instituting these changes in the private sector would dramatically cut costs there as well, bringing private sector costs down to a level much lower than the $6200 per capita it is now. See? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2006, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medicare-negotiating-lower-drug-prices-stealth-socialized-medicine/380506/59 "2006-11-21T22:59:27Z")
To repeat: > [@](#): > > This keeps happening despite the fact that the VA spends an average of $5,000 per patient, vs. the national average of $6,300. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2006, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medicare-negotiating-lower-drug-prices-stealth-socialized-medicine/380506/60 "2006-11-21T23:11:31Z")
The VA also does less ill-advised medicating of the elderly (warning, [pdf](http://www.amcp.org/data/jmcp/research_362-370.pdf)). And, it [appears](http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2005_01/005508.php) the the VA outperforms the best of the best when it comes to hospitals > [@](#): > > Pushed by large employers who are eager to know what they are buying when they purchase health care for their employees, an outfit called the National Committee for Quality Assurance today ranks health-care plans on 17 different performance measures. These include how well the plans manage high blood pressure or how precisely they adhere to standard protocols of evidence-based medicine such as prescribing beta blockers for patients recovering from a heart attack. Winning NCQA’s seal of approval is the gold standard in the health-care industry. And who do you suppose this year’s winner is: Johns Hopkins? Mayo Clinic? Massachusetts General? Nope. In every single category, the VHA system outperforms the highest rated non-VHA hospitals. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medicare-negotiating-lower-drug-prices-stealth-socialized-medicine/380506.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medicare-negotiating-lower-drug-prices-stealth-socialized-medicine/380506.md?page=4)