Medieval II: Total War Released!

How many of you have played Rome: Total War as well as M2:TW? I finally got around to buying Rome last month. I enjoy the game, but it seems to just go on and on. I made the mistake of starting a long campaign first. I think I quit after I had control of about 30 regions.

Since then I’ve played three short campaigns. I won the first playing the Julii. I lost the second as Carthage due to being attacked by 5 other factions and having the Egyptians win around the time I was gaining the upper hand. I’m still playing the third (again as Carthage). I have to say that it was fun to see Rome fall.

Anyway, I guess I’m wondering if M2 is worth playing back to back with Rome? Is it the same kind of massive timesink that makes Civ 4 look like a short game?

Crap, but I just bought Age of Empires III! Should I forget about that and get this one? Is it that good? Anyone want to buy a slightly used copy of AOE: III???

Oh, definitely. I have a long running thread on it in this forum in fact…as well as a thread concerning the Total Realism mod which I highly recommend. If you just started playing Rome, I suggest you get the TR (gold) mod asap…it really improves an already great game immensely.

Its a HUGE timesink. As for playing them back to back…well, its essentially the same game set in different eras. If you just started Rome TW, I’d stick to that for now and play through the various factions. As I said above, I’d also get the Total Realism mod and restart. Its definitely worth it.

Medieval 2 is going to be out for a LONG ass time…and I’ll probably be playing it well into 2007, if not 2008. :slight_smile: Hell, I was playing Rome TW until last month, and thats been out since 2004.
Feel free to ask any questions about Rome here, or revive that old thread if you want. I can endlessly talk about this stuff. :stuck_out_tongue:

-XT

Completely different games…but yeah, IMHO its THAT good. :stuck_out_tongue: For my part, I was playing Company of Hero’s (and WoW of course) when this thing game out…and have set them both aside for now to play it. In another month or so I’ll probably come up for air and start playing a bit of WoW again anyway…and maybe say hi to my family if I think of it…

:stuck_out_tongue:

-XT

xtisme, can you give your thoughts on the battle AI? My single biggest complaint with Rome was how atrocious the battle AI was - just completely incapable of holding its troops in anything resembling a coherent formation especially when attacking. I don’t recall it doing anything to counter a flanking maneuver whatsoever. Has this improved at all?

I can. The cavalry AI has been upped, it seems; in every battle i’ve fought, the opposing army has kept one or two horse units in reserve which countered any attempted flanking maneuver. And I don’t mean they just charged and kept attacking; if you withdrew, they withdrew and got back into position.

As another example, during a siege the enemy kept bombarding my ballista towers with siege weapons until they had a clear run and the walls until they had about four or five different possible entrances. In Rome they’d just make one entrance and pile up the entire army behind it to bottleneck in.

Go get the expansion and I’ll play you.

I’ll look for it this weekend.

BTW, Medieval is a totally different game? Could you kinda explain what it’s like, then? It looks similar on tv, anyway.

I found a gaping big hole in the AI. I had an army with four units of longbowmen in it, as well as assorted infantry and cavalry, and took on a force of two spearmen and an enmey noble. I closed within arrow range, and the AI just sat there while my archers slaughtered his troops to a man. They didn’t try to charge (because, I assume, the computer knew my infantry would gut him) but they didn’t try to run, either. At the end, there was just the general left, surrounded by the corpses of his “army,” and his morale was still “ready.” I’ve been able to do this consistently anytime I’ve taken the field against an inferior force. Apparently, the computer doesn’t register being shot by arrows as a threat. Kind of disappointing. Hope there’s a patch, soon.

Bear_Nenno, the Total War games are different from most other real-time strategies in that the RTS part is combat only. The game’s broken up into a tactical and a strategic component. The tactical game is turn-based. Your armies have a certain number of movement points per turn, which they use to maneuver on the map and attack other armies and enemy cities. You also do all your building in this phase, instead of trying to manage construction while fighting at the same time. There’s also no resource collection, like most other RTSs. Your cities generate a certain amount of gold every turn (dictated by the size of the city, where it’s located on the map, and what structures you’ve built there) which you use to maintain your armies and buy new units and buildings. When you attack another army, it goes to a real time strategic game, where you control the various units that make up your army. Combat is much more realistic than in other RTS, and tends to be on a larger scale. You also don’t control individual units, but rather, whole companies, usually of fifty to a hundred men. Things like unit facing and flanking play a bigger role than in most other RTSs I’ve played.

Well, I just got it and have only started playing around with it a little this morning. I’m playing a short campaign on N/H with France to unlock the factions and acclimatize myself. Probably I’ll set at H/VH for full campaigns ( the strategic AI’s frequent hyper-aggressiveness when set to VH just seems ridiculous and takes me out of the role-playing aspect ). Supposedly instead of higher battle difficulties just affecting morale, fatigue, etc., it still effects those things, but effects both the player and AI equally, with the AI scaling up in ability. Haven’t tested that, but it’ll be a big improvement if true.

So far I’ve fought very few open field engagements, none against an equal opponent ( all were bandit mop-ups ) and no assaults. In general it’s not part of my game plan to assault unless really pressed for time ( i.e. have to take a town and dig in before a much larger column arrives to drive me off ), which I find tedious. So almost all my battlefield experience with the game has been on the tail end of sieges when the starving garrisons have sortied ( at Rennes, Bourdeaux, Metz, Dijon and Antwerp ), which isn’t a terribly fair test of the AI. I’ve only just started my first war with an actual faction ( those feelthy Norman dogs of course :smiley: ) and those tea-drinking wusses have withdrawn their full stack to Caen, rather than meet my full stack in the open. I’m not sure whether to siege to get this initial game over with ( gotta unlock ) or try to draw them out. But anyway…

It sure is pretty. And I’m not even at the absolute highest setting. I particularly like the new high-arcing archery animation.

The tactical AI is, so far, no worse than BI-level RTW ( which would indeed try to flank with calvary ) and possibly a cut better. But it will take more testing to suss out, especially in the open and on VH. Command units do still tend to recklessly charge at times, albeit it in a reasonably cohesive faction and often to flank or at least at a gap. But that bother me a little less in a medieval game, when such foolishness was the norm. Also that may be a function of being frequently outnumbered. I’ll occasionally roleplay a little recklessness myself, depending on the character.

The toughest fight so far was Antwerp, which I stole with a scratch force after the large rebel garrison repelled in succession two German and one Danish assault. In that one I was slightly outnumbered ( and they didn’t wait to get starved, they properly sortied immediately on the first turnwhile they still held that advantage ), they had more and better heavy infantry and more heavy calvary, while I had a unit of light calvary they lacked and a small advantage in missle troops ( but it was pouring rain ). I lost every single man in my single spear unit and suffered heavy casualties to my calvary, but won by repeatedly sandwhiching individual units between my light calvary and heavy body guards and then retreating before I could get swarmed. Also I had a good commander who managed to survive, while theirs went down early.

A known issue, which apparently CA owned up to pretty much simultaneously with the games release. It’s a “passive AI” bug that sneaked in when the game was going gold. It’s apparently #1 on the list of items to be addressed with the first CA patch which is due in about two weeks.

This is no longer 100% true ( though it largely is ) with the implementation of the new merchant/resource system. Which frankly I’m not crazy about. It seems bugged or else just plain unbalanced - stealing resources from other merchants ( which means losing a 550 florin unit every time ) seems to happen wayyyy too frequently. It’s clumsy in implementation if you ask me and with the current imbalance, pricey and a micromanagement pain in the ass to boot. It needs to addressed IMHO.

There is also a seeming issue with calvary orders. Not a problem with a little more micromanagement, but they don’t always charge properly with a double-click, instead often sauntering up at a canter to engage in hand-to-hand ( the AI doesn’t have this issue far as I can tell ). For those who don’t like to pause ( I’m not one of them ) it might be pretty frustrating.

  • Tamerlane

Oh yes and I agree with xtisme ( I think ) that the base speed on the battle map seems faster. Probably a good thing, but I was caught by surprise the first time or two by how quickly I was engaged while I was still fiddling around with my lines. Also lines seem to ( realistically ) get more tangled and slower to form if you don’t have good unit seperation or they mingle while marching to their position.

But then again both of the above may be illusionary on my part.

  • Tamerlane

Thirdly ( :stuck_out_tongue: ), the inquisitors are definitely unbalanced. They’re far worse than they should be, IMHO.

  • Tamerlane

Cool, glad to hear that.

As near as I can tell, the resources don’t really do anything for you other than generate extra income, right? It’s not like you need to have a merchant working on a timber resource to get wood for your buildings. I wouldn’t really call that resource gathering, not in the sense normally used in RTS.

I do agree that the system is broken, though. I’m playing England, and being out on the island helps a lot, but it’s still a pain. Might work better if there were a capital cost for trying to force out a merchant. If you had to drop 500 gold to tryto buy him out, the AI wouldn’t be so cavalier about whacking your guys. I’d also like to see some sort of monopoly bonus. Scale up the buy out difficulty for every merchant you have on that type of resource. Lastly, I wish the merchant would turn into a little shop or something when he’s working a resource. Having all those merchants standing around on the map gets cluttered and confusing.

Speaking of which, I’ve also noticed that once archers start targeting a unit, they won’t take any other orders until that unit is wiped out. It’s a real pain watching your archers spend all their arrows on those last five guys who just won’t take the hint and run away.

I just bought this today and I’m having a little bit of, what I think is, a technical problem. I started playing as the English but I can hardly do anything before the game freezes up, goes to a load screen with a quote under, and puts me back to the very beginning.

Anyone know what could be up?

I WANT IT!
But can I still build my fort? That’s my favorite part of AOE…

BTW, will my computer handle the game?

1 222-4759 XPS M1210, Intel Core 2 Duo Processor T7400 (2.16GHz/667MHz/4MB)
1 320-4787 12 inch Wide-screen WXGA Display with TrueLife, Camera,WW Ant, Ear Buds, for XPS M1210
1 311-5989 2GB, DDR2, 667MHz 2 Dimm for XPS M1210
1 320-4790 256MB NVIDIA GeForce Go 7400 TurboCache, for XPS M1210
1 341-3553 80GB 5400RPM SATA Hard Drive, for XPS M1210
1 420-4775 Microsoft Windows XP Professional Service Pack 2 English
1 420-4928 Windows Media Player 10

According to the offical site, the minimum specs are:

English version of Microsoft® Windows® 2000/XP.
Celeron 1.8GHz Pentium 4® (1500MHz) or equivalent AMD® processor.
512MB RAM.
8x Speed DVD-ROM drive (1200KB/sec sustained transfer rate) and latest drivers.
11.0 Gigs of uncompressed free hard disk space.
100% DirectX® 9.0c compatible 16-bit sound card and latest drivers.
100% Windows® 2000/XP compatible mouse, keyboard and latest drivers.
DirectX® 9.0c.
128MB Hardware Accelerated video card with Shader 1 support and the latest drivers.
Must be 100% DirectX® 9.0c compatible.
Monitor must be able to display 1024x768 resolution or above.

I got the DVD drive, but I’m not sure if it can sustain 1200kb/s. Anyone know?
1 313-4222 8X DVD+/-RW Drive, for XPS M1210

Does my video card have Shader 1 support?

Certainly…though, bad luck for me, I’ve been working pretty much solidly since friday on a major network outage. Just got home in fact…urk!

To answer the question…I am not sure to be honest. I can’t say I’ve noticed a huge difference in the AI in the battles I’ve fought so far. You can still lure the enemy into doing pretty stupid things (leaving they ranged units exposed, moving indecisively back and forth under a barrage of artillary as you move your own units from side to said, stuff like that). They still don’t seem capable of hitting you with multiple ‘regiments’ in a true line of battle…so if you have your battle lines drawn up well (with the right unit mix) you can still steamroll them with your heavy infantry just like in Rome.

I will say that the AI shows some good sparks sometimes though…I actually had them attemp a multi-vector attack with flanking in one battle. It didn’t work out too well for them, but I have to say that my casualties so far have been heavier than they usually were in Rome…but that could be how they are rolling deaths too for all I know.

I think, AI wise, we probably aren’t going to see any great advances any time soon based on what a lot of my programming friends have to say (the cost in computing power isn’t worth the return…yet).

Definitely…they seem to hit me more with battles that start off without me being able to set my lines…and I think my regiments don’t respond anywhere near as fast as they did in Rome (even with those slow ass phalanx formations). You can’t run regiments through each other either like you could in the past…they get all tangled up and are VERY vulnerable to attack for quite some time afterward. I think they have also optimized their code wrt the tactical game, and it seems to work really well…and is too cool to watch (I often get distracted zooming in to watch the fighting and thus lose control of the larger battle :)).

Still, if I DO get my battle lines set, the AI doesn’t seem to me to be able to throw a coherent battle at me…but instead seems to still send parts of its army at me piecemeal (or with parts working together, but not working together as a whole if you know what I mean). A lot of times I can see how the AI SHOULD beat me…but it just doesn’t seem to be able to put together the big picture. Not really surprising…and for all that, this is a hell of a game IMHO. :slight_smile:

They are definitely ‘unbalanced’…frigging psychopathic killers that just wandering around wacking units. And gods…I still haven’t been able to kill one yet. I now flee whenever I see one coming and don’t peek out until after they are gone. My tactic is to actually detail a spy to follow them around once they come into my territory so I always know where they are, despite the fog of war in territories I don’t control. That way the sneaking bastards can’t get the drop on my merchants and wack them.

:stuck_out_tongue:

-XT

I’ve been playing the demo and there are some really annoying graphical issues. I am a stickler for graphics so I have trouble enjoying great gameplay (which this game definitely has) if there are stupid graphical gaffes.

One example: zoom in to the mounted cavalrymen and you will see that the standards are just floating there in the air, they’re not being actually held by anyone.

AI issues:

A unit of my pikemen advances towards an enemy group of crossbowmen. I zoom in to watch the action up close. The crossbowmen stand there, dumbly, as the pikemen get closer and closer, not reacting at all to their imminent death. In real life, they would either be running away, or, if they were extraordinarily brave, trying to fight the pikemen. In the game, they just stand there, not even turning to look at the guys who are about to kill them.

Shit like this just annoys me to death. I really hope the full version has these kinks ironed out. Because the gameplay is pretty fun otherwise.