Mediocre Products With Undeserved Reputations: Why?

Great Debates
61

Ain’t that the truth. A couple of years ago I decided to surprise my wife with a designer handbag. She had mentioned lusting after one a while back, so I went to an upscale store and asked to look at them. It was shocking! Just a little leather handbag, with no pouches or any real features, was almost $1000. Sure, it was constructed well out of nice leather, but there was no way it was worth more than $1000 on material and quality alone. There were handbags going up into the multi-thousand dollar range. I got lucky and found her a discontinued Prada bag for $295, which I still thought was a nutty price to pay, but my wife loves it and it’s good as new after a couple of years, so it’s not a wildly unreasonable purchase, I guess.

It’s funny - while I was waiting for the bag to be wrapped, I was looking at the cosmetics. Next to me was a sales lady giving her pitch to what looked like a 16 year old girl. The pitch was total BS (“This cream is the newest thing - it contains extract from iberian monkey weed, which penetrates the skin and re-hydrates it from underneath!” or something like that). Anyway, this girl wound up collecting a few jars of stuff (all of which fit in her hand it was so small), and the bill was over $1500. She used Mom’s credit card, but it maxxed out at $1000, so she said, “Oh well, I’ll use my emergency card for the rest. Dad’ll kill me. Ha ha.”

I would have been happy to do it for Dad. Can’t stand spoiled rich kids.

62

I was talking to a friend about this the other day. Manolo Blahniks and Jimmy Choos were fairly obscure before Sex and the City made them household names. They were still considered elite brands by those in the know (apparently because their heels are sky-high but you can still walk comfortably in them - I’ve never tried them, so I can’t tell), but they weren’t instantly recognisable to laypeople like Gucci or Prada are.

Anyway, one particular style of Manolos retailed for around $400. Then they appeared on Sex and the City, so Manolo Blahnik re-issued and re-priced them for over $500 - and they completely sold out. You can find people selling them for over $600 on eBay. Same shoe, same designer - the only difference is perception.

The ultimate status handbag to own is a Hermes Birkin or Kelly. This is the bag that women who own $2000 bags envy. They start at $5000 or so, and depending on the material used, and any other attachments, they could easily approach the $50,000+ mark. I wouldn’t be surprised if some went over $100,000. The bag could be made from the skin of an endangered animal that ate another endangered animal and it wouldn’t cost that much to make. You could probably buy the finest crocodile hide and hire the finest craftsman to make it and it wouldn’t cost that much. The cachet comes partly from the cost, but mostly from the fact that there is a long waiting list. In fact, some stores need to temporarily close their waiting lists because demand is so great. By artificially limiting the supply, the perception is that you need to be someone in order to have a Birkin or a Kelly. Any schlub can walk into Louis Vuitton and buy a bag, but in order to get this one you need to be on a special list and wait, and then pay thousands. I love fashion, but sometimes it makes me shake my head (although I would be hard-pressed to say no to a cherry red croc Birkin).

63

“German Engineering”

Maybe it was true, oh, 50 years ago, but it ain’t now. I have owned, since 1994, one Honda Accord LX. It has 178,000 miles on it. I have not had one major repair done on it. Not one. Just the usual stuff (muffler, brakes, timing belt, stuff that wears out on all cars). I’m pathetic with regular checkups. I barely get the oil changed at 1/2 the frequency I should. I’m an almost criminally unconscientious owner, and I cannot kill the thing. It just runs and runs.

My buddy got a BMW 5-series in 1997. Since then he’s dropped about six grand on it for stuff not included in the regular maintainance schedule, which he follows religiously. I’ve driven his Bimmer. I’ll admit, it’s a better performing car than mine on the road, but it’s not three times as good; it’s not even twice as good. I’d demand at least twice of something to justify the price differential. Well, the leather seats are nice, and the stereo kicks ass, but, you know, I could put an entire leather interior in my car and have the most kick-ass stereo known to mankind, and I’d still be nowhere near what he paid for his car. And when you factor in what he’s had to pay in maintainance, his krautmobile is way, way more pricey than my rice-rocket.

Bimmer, shmimmer. Seems like half his miles are driving the thing to the shop. German engineering? F**k that! I’ll take my mid-range Japanese sedan any freaking day of the year twice over a German “luxury” car. You can bet, if I feel like wasting the cash on a high-end sedan, it’s gonna be a Lexus. No way is BMW, Audi, Mercedes, any of them going to get my money. And Volkswagon is an effing joke. My sister has a Jetta, and what a complete piece of shite. Stuff literally falls off of that car, and it’s been nothing but a chronic headache for her. Nope, Japan all the way. More bang for your buck than any car from anywhere else. Yet the best Japanese cars still don’t get the respect of even the crappiest BMW 3 series. It’s beyond irrational.

64

Hey, they gotta pay for civil war in Angola somehow!

I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to insult you. I use whichever products work for me, and I’m not interested in bothering to bargain shop in case there’s something cheaper on the market. All I meant to say is that there’s nothing objectively better about high-priced products; they’re not made from better ingredients or exclusive formulas. Your skin and hair are still going to respond idiosyncratically, and if you find something effective that costs a few bucks more, it’s not a bad deal.

It’s just that I’ve heard more than once from people who oughta know better that salon hair products or department store skin creams are inherently higher quality or better for you. They’re not. There’s nothing about spending more money that guarantees a better result. That doesn’t mean that a $20 shampoo is bad, just that it’s not necessarily good. Whatever works, works, and when you find something that works for you, and it’s not sending you into bankruptcy, it’s worth it - even if there’s something slightly cheaper out there, it’s in no way worth trying the three hundred crappy products you’ll run into before you find it.

For what it’s worth, I indulge myself when it comes to shampoo, but not conditioner or styling products. I’ve found what I like, and I’m satisfied. (Oh, and the super-cheap brands are generally quite bad. I guess when a bottle of VO-5 costs a buck fifty, they have to cut every corner they can.)

65

Marketing, and the fact that many people absolutely will not shop around. One of my favorite examples of this is CompUSA.

They airdrop one of their enormous freakin’ stores into an area and then blanket the countryside with fliers promising the best prices, best service, etc. Never mind the fact that their prices are almost always the HIGHEST to be found and generally the service is the worst - they just keep telling everyone that they are cheap and good and people don’t bother to check. When my friends and coworkers find out that I avoid the place and go to the little independent shops they’re amazed - “But CompUSA is the cheapest! All of their ads say so. Um, no, I’ve never actually checked, I just kinda trusted them…”

66

Well… that is a pretty hard thing to argue based on anecdotal evidence, because the picture of who owns what in the automobile world is hideously complex, and much has to do with corporate survival rather than dedication to quality. I think you might find a decline in German car quality (if there has indeed been one) starting roughly with the consolidation of the automobile world. BMW, for example, now owns BMW, Mini, and Rolls Royce. Fiat cars are generally poorly regarded and I don’t think the phrase “Italian engineering” has ever been used in marketing, but Fiat also owns the premium brands Ferrari, Maserati, Lancia, and Alfa Romeo. Jaguar and Aston martin are the epitome of British cool, but are owned by… Ford. GM owns a chunk of Fiat, and owns Saab, Opel, and Daewoo too. Volkswagen owns the stylish Bugatti and Lamborghini among several others. It’s a complete mess and individual countries are less associated with car brands than they were a few years ago.

If we’re talking anecdotal evidence, I know two people with old german cars that have outperformed for the last two decades and travelled many hundreds of thousands of miles: one is an 1983 Audi 100 CD that STILL hits 200 km/h, and the other is a Jetta from around 1985 with so much mileage I would probably need a slide rule to write it down. But anecdotes being what they are…

By the way, here is an article on why people buy Jettas:
http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/ly/03jettagli.htm

In general, I guess design is just as important as manufacture and engineering quality (mind you, I do not know that Jettas are poor quality – anecdotally, everyone I know who owns one is quite happy with it).

I still say women’s handbags are a more blatant rip-off. Anyone considering buying one of those insanely expensive bags should consider the cost of a holiday in Hong Kong, a stay in a luxury hotel, a great time, and a day trip to Shenzen for a bit of shopping. That entire package will cost less than the price tag on some of the original handbags out there.

67

The most incredible car I ever drove was a 2003 BMW M3 with SMG transmission, paddle shifting, and the whole lot. I think if you chose right, BMW still makes an incredible car. But, you have to take the good with the bad – this car had a shoddily appointed interior in which the door trim was beginning to fall off. The good things you get – the transmission, engine, and suspension are not easily beat – come with the well-known bad points. I don’t know if I’d pay the $20,000 extra for the M3 versus a similarly performing Subaru WRX-Sti, but it was certainly an experience and fun to be driving a car that turned heads.

The Lexus/Toyota (and Acura/Honda) dichotomy are a little more confusing than what has been put out in this thread. The low end of Acura and Lexus overlap in price with Honda and Toyota (my Acura RSX-S cost less than my friend’s similarly appointed Accord Coupe EX V-6). I don’t know exactly why they do this, but it is a fact. And if you look at the J.D. Power reports, Lexus (and to a lesser extent Acura) clean up on dependability and reported problems with Toyota and Honda still good but not as great. The difference in price is not that great until you start getting to the very loaded models. A loaded Toyota 4Runner is only slightly cheaper (around $3000 MSRP - $34k versus $37k) than a base model AWD Lexus RX-330 which comes with most of the same options.

Since it seems to be the electronic doodads that break on these cars and cause the most problems, it seems that if you are not interested in them, it may very well be worth the $3000 to get the extra perks (dependability and fewer problems, dealer services like free loaners and a little more personal attention). Judging from the experience I have had buying and servicing Hondas versus Acuras (and my mother reporting the same on her new Lexus versus her old Chrysler), I think it may be money well spent.

Again, you have to pick your battles, but don’t automatically discount everyone in a luxury car as a tool or a sucker.

68

Just to add one point, my dad drives a Jaguar X-Type. For the $35k or so that he spent, I think it is a colossal waste. The thing has a nice interior and a nice engine and a nice drivetrain, but it is still pretty close to the Ford Contour that it is based on. That, and every single option, like a CD player, cost thousands of extra dollars which he was not prepared to spend. So he basically drives a bottom-of-the-line Ford Contour (with nice leather and AWD) for $35k.

69

Stop balking. You know more about this than 99.99999% of the people out there. Shit-oh-dear, I do it for a living and I’m scrambling to keep up with what you are saying because I lack your physics background; I went into work one day to find that I was a theater designer, much like how I suddenly learned I was expected to be an interior designer. Knowing Autocad made me neither, but try telling my bosses that–I sure as Hell won’t! I grabbed some quick rules of thumb, adopted an authoritarian air, and found some sources that help when I realize I’m in too deep while I do independent study to fill the gaps in my knowledge. Sometimes it pays off; that problem theater I discussed earlier had its problems removed this morning when the owner’s rep sent an email to all concerned:

It’s like a license to kill! There’s a feature I don’t like? Not anymore! But the architect just loves it? Too bad! :smiley:

70

Well, whether it’s a waste or not all depends on whether he pronounces it “jag-wahr” or “jag-you-ar”; if he pronounces it the first way, it’s obviously a waste, because he’s clearly not classy enough to appreciate such a fine vehicle! :smiley:

Idlewild, I’m with you on the necessity of leave-in conditioner, but Pantene Pro-V and Aussie both make very reasonably priced leave-in conditioners that you can undoubtedly find at your local Wall-world type store, or even your local supermarket (I know I can find them, and I live in by-Og Cumberland, MD for heaven’s sake! :wink: ).

71

Excellent! Turn his room into an anechoic chamber! Let’s see the architect make something of that…

As for me doing theater design… I guess I’d better wait and see how mine turns out, first! The stuff I’m really weak on is things like HVAC design. Theaters have some pretty special needs (they have the heating/cooling requirements similar to a kitchen, because there are so many heat sources in the room), but coming up with enough ventilation to keep the room and equipment cool while still maintaining soundproofing is a very tricky business. I had to hire an HVAC pro to do mine, and I don’t think he got it right. Looking at other theaters, I don’t think mine has enough airflow. And the cold air return in the theater ties into the main cold air duct which has a register directly above. So I expect a fair bit of sound leakage. I hope not, though.

The other thing I’m lousy at is estimating time/cost/effort. I would have no way of knowing if I was staying in someone’s budget or not. I work in software development, where it’s expected that your estimates will suck (-:.

72

I don’t want to stop at just a mediocre product…I’m going to give you an entire company!
Sharper. Fucking. Image.

They can blow me. Anyone who’s purchased from them knows the disappointment you get when you open the waaaay cool item and find it to be either chintzy, broken, or misrepresented. I hate them and the horse they rode in on.

73

I used to work in a century-plus old theater, whose seating area had these small, dome-covered holes all over the floor, against which patrons were forever banging toes.

In the days before AC, the chamber below the holes was filled with ice to keep the place cool during performances.

74

Alienware motherfucking computers.

I paid a premium for one of those a couple years ago. My reason was simple - I spend all day fixing computers, networks, and generally dealing with fixing anything related to computers, networks, and anything else that has to do with IP. The last thing I want to do is come home and fuck with a computer.

I’ve never had a PC give me so many problems. I’ve never dealt with such incompetent tech support (except for Kaltech…). Rarely have I gotten to the point of shouting at people over the phone and hurling abuse at them that would make a pimp blush (again, except for Kaltech…).

And yet every time I open a PC magazine, there’s editors and reviewers brown-tonguing Alienware.

-Joe, not bitter, not at all

75

scotandrsn: Cool inre the theatre. I used to work at The Midland in Kansas City, which has an honest-to-goodness lake underneath it. Back in the day, they’d draw air in from outside, run it over the lake (which allegedly cooled it), then pump it back into the house. Now, of course, it’s dry and filled with detritus.

Dome covered holes, though. That’s old school.

76

I can live with his French whorehouse design. If nothing else the frou-frou on the walls scatters some of the sound waves making the room sound more natural, and cloth walls don’t look so out of place in a whorehouse.

Not at all–move them into a ventilated, soundproof closet. Some IR bugs in the room so you can control stuff and you’re in business.

Software development? Then you’re fucked . :wink:

77

Hey, if I could design theaters and get away with software-style estimating, I’d be all for it! But then if I did, 40% of the theater projects would end before being completed, and the other half would come in twice over the budget, take an extra year to build, and then after that when you turn on the lights the dishwasher upstairs will start.

Anyway… HVAC design for the theater looks tricky. I’m not just talking about the audio gear - a lot of that stuff doesn’t throw all that much heat. But humans are a big heat source, and the projector can easily throw 500 watts of heat, depending on what type it is. Plus, a theater has airtight walls and doors - you’d be surprised how much air can escape a room that has a 2" gap under the door, holes through the walls where electrical boxes are, gaps under the baseboards, etc. Theaters, if they are soundproofed well, are airtight. And, they often contain far more people than average. How many other 300 square foot rooms in a house are totally enclosed and have eight people in them? Put four or five people in your bedroom and wait an hour, and it might get pretty warm and stuffy.

So, you need to move air through the room through the HVAC system. That means tying into the house’s supply and cold air returns. But that opens holes into common spaces in the house. Some way is needed to soundproof the HVAC system. Common techniques are to use flexible ducting design for noise reduction - they have a cloth lining instead of bare steel or plastic. Then, instead of just cutting a hole in the wall into the open space of the house for a cold air return, or just cutting a hole into the ceiling and using a joist for the cold air return, which are common techniques for other rooms, you need to create some sort of sound-reducing system. Using flexible duct and making sure it has at least one full ‘S’ bend will help. Some people build baffle boxes lined with fiberglass board that the air/sound has to go through before it can escape into the house.

Then there’s the noise of the HVAC. Furnace noise can be quite loud when you’re listening to a quiet passage. The solution is to use flexible duct on the supply, and also to not use much restriction in the diffuser.

That’s where I start to lose it. If you make the diffuser big, that allows more air to leave the main supply. How does that affect the other rooms in the house? And how do you make sure the air coming into the room passes through the seating area? And how big should the return be? From what I understand, problems can arise if the return is too small for the supply, because then the room will pressurize and kill air flow. If the return is too big, the air velocity drops and causes problems. Bleh.

78

seems to me to be an over-hyped car brand. My brother has one (it is an S-class diesel, 4 door sedan). The car rides nice, but it has (to me) and extremely rough-shifting 4-speed automatic. In six years, the following components have been replced:
-engine (block cracked at 55,000 miles-dealer fixed under warranty)
-injection pump (failed at 76,000 miles-cost $3200.00 to fix)
-power door locks: relay failed inside rear door-labor and parts to fix was $900.00
Plus, the car eats brake pads for lunch-each set costs about $500.00 to replace.
Numerous electrical problems…sometimes the radio will not function…dealer says that the radio has a encoded chip inside that makes it impossible to play if removed from the vehicle-ocassionally this chip loses its memory, and has to be re-programmed
All, in all, he probably takes the car in for repar every two months.
I wouldnever buy a car like that…my cheap Chevy has gone 10,000 miles between service calls, and no major component has ever failedin my car. Infact, the car has now over 180,000 miles.
I’d take my Chevy ANY day over the M-B!

79

According to the J.D. Power Nameplate Ranking, only one German auto maker ranks in the top 10 for dependability: Porsche. BMW ranks only slightly higher than average for dependability, Mercedes-Benz well below average, and Volkswagon is quite near the very bottom (industry average = 269 problems/100 vehicles…VW had 386 problems/100 vehicles, beating out only Isuzu, Daewoo, Kia, and Land Rover, the worst of the lot).

Top ranking make: Lexus. Honda, Toyota, Acura, Infiniti, all are in the top ten. Surprisingly to me, they share the top ten with Buick, Lincoln, Caddy, and Mercury. Maybe I should look at American more (though there’s no beating a Japanese car for resale value).

So, to isolate the “Luxury” classs (in problems/100):

#1 Lexus: 162
#3 Infiniti: 189
#7 Acura: 212
#10 Porsche: 240
#13 BMW: 264
Industry Average: 269
#23 Audi: 295
#29 Mercedes-Benz: 327

Anyone who would purchase a Bimmer or especially a Benz over a Lexus because it’s got that fabled “German Engineering” should have known better by now. It’s B.S., and if folks still buy into it, I suppose they deserve to have their money stolen.

80

To continue the home theatre hijack…

You’ve set yourself a rather difficult task - building an uncompromised theatre within a house without spending a fortune. I’m no expert - I’m newcome to the sound industry, and just a flunky at that, but I’m picking up the general principles pretty quick and know enough about construction to understand where a lot of the conflicts arise. My own suggestion would have been to compromise on the airtightness of the room, and make sure the way the theatre is situated in the basement prevents the sound from travelling to the upstairs. But that may not be a compromise you would have wanted to make, I guess.

Pity you’re in Edmonton, or I’d be able to set you up with an analyzer. My boss has one, and his services aren’t all that expensive (or at least, not when you aren’t asking him to drive to the next province). That’s the sort of job he loves doing anyways. In fact, just the other day he said something like, “If I had $200k to burn on this company, I’d like to get into home theatre design and making acoustical absorption that looks like artwork rather than just panels.” Or words to that effect. Of course, he’d also like to go to pure acoustical consulting, and any number of other things. As it is, I’m sure we’ll continue doing a whole hodge-podge of stuff, which suits me fine.