Look, what some of you partisan guys don’t understand is that some people don’t think the Dems are better in any appreciable way. It’s nice to blather philosophical about voting for the guy who’ll give you some of what you want, don’t be a baby. But some people think the parties just peddle different bullshit, not different action. In many areas, they’re not wrong.
Some people want to vote against the system. They don’t believe you that the Dems are the “good part of the system”. There’s always going to be some people like that. So quit crying like toddlers that people don’t understand how obviously right you are.
I absolutely understand that. I think it’s bullshit and argue against that bullshit. Those people who think that are wrong and can’t back up their position.
They have to be right in all areas to be right. It’s an enormous, sweeping claim.
I’m not saying Democrats are the good part of the system.
Your “quit crying like toddlers” is just stupid. Can you do better?
No, if they think there is no discernible difference between the Republicans and the Democrats, they are wrong. They are the political equivalent of anti-vaxxers or flat earthers.
You know the Dems arent a whole lot better than the old GOP party. A little sure, but not massively.
So when you have the choice of say a Bush senior vs a Carter, well, that is a interesting choice. Maybe they are both the wrong choice. It’s “eh” vs “meh” sometimes.
But you see, that’s not the choice in 2020. It’s trump and all your freedoms that are on the line. trump is evil. period. full stop.
And, top it all off, it’s gonna be more like 80% of things, not 2%. The thing about people running in the same political party is that they mostly tend to agree. The party has an official position.
With the Democratic candidates, almost everything that makes anyone different is just a matter of degrees. It’s more that they may not push as hard for the thing you want.
The only exception I’ve ever seen was with Trump. But that was specifically his promise–that he was different from the usual Republican. He ran on how awful he was as a person, and people voted for that.
When I see people say that there is one Democrat they’d vote for but none of the rest, it just demonstrates they don’t think rationally, and that Trump and the Republicans succeeded. They may not be able to get you to vote for them, but they can sow this “all or none” ideology.
You’re the one being philosophical. We’re being practical. Your guy can’t win, so your vote, no matter how much you want it to, cannot and will not accomplish anything. Your “voting against the system” won’t stop the system.
It is true that we reject the idea that the Republicans and Democrats are the same. But that, again, is about us being practical. Trump got a Republican on the Supreme Court and may have lost us the right to abortion. Trump has been targeting Muslims, immigrants (including children put in cages) and trans people. Trump started several trade wars, ruined peace in Iran, attacked our allies, cozied up with our enemies, cut off the press, and so much more.
There just are too many differences to argue that the Democrats are the same. Believing they are the same is EXACTLY WHAT TRUMP WANTS. He can’t get you to vote for him, but he can get you to think the Dems are just as bad, when they aren’t.
And, well, if third party voters who leaned left had all voted Clinton in 2016, Trump would have lost. Your impracticality and idealism caused really damage in the world.
We’re not crying like babies. We actually have a reason to want to stop third party voters from screwing us over again.
It’s not a meme, it’s simple documented fact. Biden chose to use his vote as a senator to enable the Iraq war instead of voting against it. That vote alone means that he supported and enabled the Iraq war. But further, he chose to speak out in favor of the war. The fact that ‘just about everyone’ at the time supported the war isn’t a justification of anything. Biden claims that there was some personal assurance from Bush that Bush backed out of, Bush denies that claim, and they’re both professional politicians who routinely lie, so I don’t buy that at all. If he was fooled, he failed in his job as a Senator to use the powers available to him to make a good choice.
And you think he changed his tune after because he was fooled, I think he changed his tune because the war became hugely unpopular and it was convenient to become ‘antiwar all along’ after the fact.
Then it’s incumbent on “the voters” to choose a good candidate and not to rely on some weird “I will vote for who I want, but you’re obligated to vote for who I want instead of following any principles you might have”.
I thought you just said that this was a terrible emergency and that people should compromise their principles to prevent it? “Suck it up” doesn’t offer an explanation of why only people who have to “suck it up” are the other guys and not you. And it’s the kind of argument that encourages people to vote against whatever it is that you want out of spite.
Biden went along with the conventional wisdom and made the politically easy choice to support the Iraq war. That’s a mark against him, just as it was for Hillary Clinton. Obama, and Bernie, to their credit, both opposed the war. That demonstrates both better judgment and superior political courage, at least on this issue.
Doesn’t mean Biden is evil, just that Bernie did better on this very important decision than he did.
And what would have happened if simultaneously all right-leaning voters who voted third-party voted for Trump? Who wins when all third-party votes are pushed one way or the other? (I honestly haven’t seen this analysis and want to know what the answer is.)
Yes, he was fooled. The CIA said there were WMDs. The UN said (originally) there were WMDs. The National Security Advisor said there were WMDs. The president said there were WMDs. Israeli Intelligence said there were WMDs. Saddam had used WMD vs his own people. And Saddam himself openly bragged he had WMDs. So yeah- “he was fooled” But it’s pretty hard to disbelieve everyone.
And Bidens vote made no difference. If he had voted No, the outcome would have been the same. Bush bears full and total responsibility for Iraq, *he lied to the People of the USA, he lied to the Senate and he lied to Biden. * Sure he denies he said that, but since he lied to the Senate, to the House and to the People of the USA- including YOU- why do you believe Bush?
So, if you are gonna base your desire to let yet another open liar (who wants to start a war vs Iran ) have another four years in office to wipe his ass with the Constitution, and allow him to pack the court with conservatives Justices who will overrule Roe, who will get rid of the ACA, who will build a wall, etc- over the fact that Biden- along with everyone else) was fooled by Bushes lies 18 fucking years ago- then go ahead.
This reminds me of the time back when Ralph Nader was running and during a discussion a woman got up and screamed at him “because of YOU we will now be in a right wing police state (under Bush)”.
Frankly I think the major parties feed their supporters this BS and hysteria to yell at their friends who dare to vote 3rd party. I had it thrown at me back in 1992 when I voted for Perot and thus, allowed Clinton. Word to the wise - people usually dont respond well to insults and wild accusations.
Treasury Department Hands Over Hunter Biden Info After Withholding Trump’s Tax Records
The impeachment trial is over, but Senate Republicans are pressing forward with an investigation into the Bidens.
This is why it is important to votes the bastards out.
I was heavily involved in protesting the war at the time, and I remember the evidence presented was deeply flawed and full of holes you could drive a truck through. It’s actually pretty easy to disbelieve everyone if everything they’re telling you is obvious bullshit. And to say Bush bears 100% of the responsibility is absurd. He couldn’t have gone to war without the votes of people like Clinton and Biden.
I also remember when, for that very reason, voting for Iraq instantly disqualified any Democratic candidate from consideration for the Presidency. Whatever happened to that?
That’s all very nice now with 20/20 hindsight. And oddly Biden agrees, it was a bad vote. But it may have been BS to you :dubious: but since the worlds Intelligence Agencies all agreed, it was hardly " evidence presented was deeply flawed and full of holes you could drive a truck through."
and that never was a meme. It’s only something Berniebros thought of.:rolleyes:
No. Really. The “evidence” was weak-assed garbage, and it was obvious at the time. Here’s a few of those holes I mentioned:
1). In 2002, Hans Blix’s UN inspection team concluded Iraq wasn’t pursuing nuclear weapons.
2). In 2003, Bush said “The British Government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa”. This claim was taken from documents which the CIA at the time considered extremely unreliable, and which were later proven to be forged.
3). In 2002, Dick Cheney went on TV to say that Saddam’s own son-in-law, Hussein Kamal, had told the US that Saddam has restarted his nuclear weapons program. The problem was that Kamal had never said any such thing. In fact, he’d said the opposite thing and the CIA and the IAEA had the documents to prove it.
So those are some of the holes, and they truly are gargantuan. Your claim the evidence wasn’t fatally flawed is false. And your claim that “The world’s intelligence agencies all agreed” is absolutely, flat out 100% untrue. Every piece of evidence supplied by the Bush administration was cherry-picked. They simply ignored the evidence that they didn’t like. And when people from the CIA, the UN, and the IAEA raised questions about the evidence Bush did pick, he just ignored those questions too.
Bush and his cronies carried out these deceptions extremely artlessly, and by 2003 these flaws (and many others) were all common knowledge. Bottom line: If I knew about them, then Joe Biden did too. The fact he voted for war regardless can only mean one of two things: either he bought what Bush was selling, in which case he’s dumb as a fucking brick and shouldn’t be President. Or he didn’t buy what Bush was selling but he voted for war anyway because he didn’t want to look like a pussy, in which case death’s too good for him.
For whatever you want to say about the Democrats and Republicans, they both built and sustain their parties from the bottom up. By that I mean they go out and work for candidate for mayor, state senator, governor, et al, up to the House, Senate, and President.
As did, for that matter, the Progressive movements of the late 19th and early 20th Centuries, even if they failed getting to the top.
I don’t see Greens, and rarely see Libertarians, trying to work from the base up. Instead they pop up once every four years and call on True Believers to walk away from the parties whose policies and actions affect our lives every day.
Screw ideological purity. You want my vote? Show me you have some sense of how government operates, and that you’re invested in local and state politics.
I just realized that this discussion basically ignores the impact of the Electoral College. If you’re a Democrat in TX and are dissatisfied with the Democratic nominee, vote for Nader or Stein or Bugs Bunny. If you’re one in MI, WI or PA and you do that, you are part of the problem.
