# Medusa's snakes. **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 21, 2010, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medusas-snakes/550989 "2010-08-21T19:33:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medusas-snakes/550989/61 "2010-08-24T14:33:44Z")
> [@](#): > > I’m not arguing the point really, but I’ve no idea how long an image can endure in our collective conciousness. It would certainly be possible to me that a chimerical demon or guardian spirit image might well endure, changing in meaning as it goes. If it is something that has arisen time and again in disparate cultures then the image must trigger something deep in our shared humanity. It’s a long way to get from an accurate depiction of a lion, to the monstrous human image we are discussing. In Africa, for example, lion masks can be extremely abstract and someone from outside the culture would never guess at the correct meaning if we weren’t told by the natives. I agree – all excellent points. And the question is how likely are we, as humans, to produce the same abstract form for something? That’s another reason I have trouble with the octopus interpretation – you can argue that the protruding gorgon tongue is really the octopus’ siphon, but would you really expect all cultures to abstract the siphon in that same way? It’s even less likely that everyone would derives the gorgon face from “stormclouds” or “nightmares” (both of which have been suggested as the origin for the gorgon’s face) ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medusas-snakes/550989/62 "2010-08-24T15:10:30Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > I agree – all excellent points. And the question is how likely are we, as humans, to produce the same abstract form for something? That’s another reason I have trouble with the octopus interpretation – you can argue that the protruding gorgon tongue is really the octopus’ siphon, but would you really expect all cultures to abstract the siphon in that same way? It’s even less likely that everyone would derives the gorgon face from “stormclouds” or “nightmares” (both of which have been suggested as the origin for the gorgon’s face) Agreed. It could also have been abstracted from a corpse’s face though. That certainly would be common to all cultures. Bulging eyes, protruding tongue, teeth bared in a rictus. The fangs could be an abstracted spirit, fume, or blood flow. Considering that nearly all cultures have tales of evil spirits that consume the living, adding the teeth, or having transmuted from something earlier wouldn’t be too much of a stretch. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medusas-snakes/550989/63 "2010-08-24T15:27:35Z")
> [@](#): > > Agreed. It could also have been abstracted from a corpse’s face though. That certainly would be common to all cultures. Bulging eyes, protruding tongue, teeth bared in a rictus. The fangs could be an abstracted spirit, fume, or blood flow. Considering that nearly all cultures have tales of evil spirits that consume the living, adding the teeth, or having transmuted from something earlier wouldn’t be too much of a stretch. Awwww… ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medusas-snakes/550989/64 "2010-08-24T15:30:07Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Agreed. It could also have been abstracted from a corpse’s face though. That certainly would be common to all cultures. Bulging eyes, protruding tongue, teeth bared in a rictus. The fangs could be an abstracted spirit, fume, or blood flow. Considering that nearly all cultures have tales of evil spirits that consume the living, adding the teeth, or having transmuted from something earlier wouldn’t be too much of a stretch. > > Awwww… Well I’ve either fallen into a common logic trap and disappointed you, or I’ve ruined my reading. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medusas-snakes/550989/65 "2010-08-24T16:51:41Z")
> [@shantih](#): > > And no to the snakes turning to stone if they see Medusa head-on. They are part and parcel of her curse and as such are immune to the effects of it. But Medusa isn’t immune to her own curse - so, while the snakes could be immune, that’s not a good argument for it. Perhaps there are little snake-icles - and when a snake dies for whatever reason, a new one grows in. Joe ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medusas-snakes/550989/66 "2010-08-24T17:16:12Z")
> [@Folacin](#): > > But Medusa isn’t immune to her own curse Since when? Perseus used his mirrored shield so he could see where he was striking without being turned to stone himself, not to turn the Medusa to stone with her own gaze. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medusas-snakes/550989/67 "2010-08-24T17:49:15Z")
> [@](#): > > Since when? Perseus used his mirrored shield so he could see where he was striking without being turned to stone himself, not to turn the Medusa to stone with her own gaze. There’s no canonical answer to this. Recently, several interpretations have Medusa being turned to stone by seeing her own reflection (see the movie _Metamorphoses_, AKA _Winds of Change_, for an example. And also how liberal my definition of “recently” is). > **[Wind of Change](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winds_of_Change_%28film%29)** > > Wind(s) of Change may refer to: OTOH, the oldest representations don’t show or hint at a mirror or a shield at all. Perseus is simply loking away as he cuts off Medusa’s head: > **[Sculptures - Perseus beheads Medusa](http://www.goddess-athena.org/Museum/Sculptures/Group/Athena_Perseus_Medusa_Selinus_x.htm)** > > This page has a picture of a limestone metope from Selinus with Athena, Perseus and Medusa. > **[Perseus, Medusa & Pegasus - Ancient Greco-Roman Relief](https://www.theoi.com/Gallery/R47.1.html)** > **[Perseus Medusa Louvre CA795](http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/Mythology/PerseusMedusaLouvreCA795.html)** ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medusas-snakes/550989/68 "2010-08-24T18:19:59Z")
So which came first, the use of the design as an emblem on shields, or the myth of Perseus using his shield as a mirror? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medusas-snakes/550989/69 "2010-08-24T18:25:30Z")
> [@yanceylebeef](#): > > The real question here, is where ELSE did Medusa have snakes? [Saturday Morning Breakfast Cereal](http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=1154#comic) is waaaay ahead of you… ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2010, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medusas-snakes/550989/70 "2010-08-24T18:55:31Z")
> [@](#): > > So which came first, the use of the design as an emblem on shields, or the myth of Perseus using his shield as a mirror? My opinion – the use of the design in various places – most notably on shields and antefixes. Faces extremely similar to the Gorgon have been used elsewhere in the world – most strikingly among the Classical Maya and by the Iatmul who live along the Sepik River in New Guinea. I don’t know of any myths associated with those images, but they may well have existed. The Mayan shields, in particular, look so much like Greek shields with gorgoneia that it’s scary. I suspect that the features of the myth developed to explain _why_ the Gorgon face is on the shield. In Apollodorus, it’s explicitly stated that Perseus gave Athena the Gorgon head to put on her shield or her _aegis_. (And, interestingly, the gorgon head is so inextricably part of her shield and/or aegis that I have seen artworks in which Athena is shown _with the Gorgon head on her shield_ as perseus is running from the freshly-decapitated Medusa, holding her head. There’s a black-figure pot here in the Boston Museum of Fine Arts that shows that. On the other hand, I have a suspicion that there is another, more "mystical? explanation for the Gorgon’s head being on the shield that has been captured in the myth alongside this more literal, straightforward one. I think that the idea of Perseus cutting of the Gorgon’s head while looking at it in the mirror might be the magical action that traps it in the shield – Perseus looks at it in the shield, then separates it from the body while still looking at it in the shield, so it’s “pinned” there, m the way Peter Pan’s shadow gets captured by Wendy Darling. in any event, it seems much more likely to me that the myth grew up to explain why the gorgon head was painted on the shield than that there was a myth about a gorgon head that impelled people to paint it on their shields. As for what the head was doing on those shields, and why the practice was so widespread, see my book. ---
**Author:** ![Mollie\_Magill](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mollie_magill/32/20882_2.png) [@Mollie\_Magill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mollie_Magill)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medusas-snakes/550989/71 "2010-08-25T15:31:01Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Agreed. It could also have been abstracted from a corpse’s face though. That certainly would be common to all cultures. Bulging eyes, protruding tongue, teeth bared in a rictus. The fangs could be an abstracted spirit, fume, or blood flow. Considering that nearly all cultures have tales of evil spirits that consume the living, adding the teeth, or having transmuted from something earlier wouldn’t be too much of a stretch. > > Awwww… Which answers my question as to where I had heard this suggestion. Great book - Highly recommended. ---
**Author:** ![Corner\_Case](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/corner_case/32/234_2.png) [@Corner\_Case](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corner_Case)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2010, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medusas-snakes/550989/72 "2010-08-25T18:01:39Z")
Refer to [“Body Bags” 1993 Part 6 (YouTube)](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuvsOQUaSHE) to see how a vain attempt at hair regrowth can go horribly wrong if the _hair_ is not what you expect. ---
**Author:** ![SwanSword](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@SwanSword](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SwanSword)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medusas-snakes/550989/73 "2010-08-27T14:39:14Z")
As a fictional entity, nothing regarding Medusa is true. She’s make believe, and as such their is nothing correct or incorrect about her. Your daughter is on a search for Truth about herself and about her creator. She is on a quest to find the true beauty and perfection of God Almighty. She asks questions because she believes you know Truth. But there is no Truth in the darkness of random, mindless diversion. Feeding young probing minds irrelevant, amoral garbage produces pagan savages who adopt the minimum legal requirement as the ideal standard of human conduct. Train young minds with the beauty of classic art, roman catholic mass, gregorian chant, ancient roman poetry, gothic cathedrals, and the virtues of charity, kindness, obedience, self discipline, manners, civilized conduct, proper morals, faith, hope, thrift, prayer, devotion, chastity and love for God, and they will not deviate from Truth during their teen years. They will be happy. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medusas-snakes/550989/74 "2010-08-27T14:44:23Z")
> [@SwanSword](#): > > As a fictional entity, nothing regarding Medusa is true. She’s make believe, and as such their is nothing correct or incorrect about her. Your daughter is on a search for Truth about herself and about her creator. She is on a quest to find the true beauty and perfection of God Almighty. She asks questions because she believes you know Truth. > > But there is no Truth in the darkness of random, mindless diversion. > > Feeding young probing minds irrelevant, amoral garbage produces pagan savages who adopt the minimum legal requirement as the ideal standard of human conduct. > > Train young minds with the beauty of classic art, roman catholic mass, gregorian chant, ancient roman poetry, gothic cathedrals, and the virtues of charity, kindness, obedience, self discipline, manners, civilized conduct, proper morals, faith, hope, thrift, prayer, devotion, chastity and love for God, and they will not deviate from Truth during their teen years. > > They will be happy. I’m kind of hoping this is a whoosh. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medusas-snakes/550989/75 "2010-08-27T14:47:44Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > I’m kind of hoping this is a whoosh. He only signed up today, so that’s unlikely. I’ve already reported it. Although, I am amused by the idea that **Baboon** ’s daughter “is on a quest to find… true beauty” and that lead her to _Medusa_. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medusas-snakes/550989/76 "2010-08-27T14:48:12Z")
> [@](#): > > But there is no Truth in the darkness of random, mindless diversion. Random, mindless diversion is pretty much our stock-in-trade here at the SDMB. You never can tell when it’ll come in handy. And Medusa’s in a lot of Classical Art. ---
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medusas-snakes/550989/77 "2010-08-27T14:53:34Z")
Welcome to the SDMB, **SwanSword**. We ask that you do any witnessing you want to do in Great Debates; this post is off-topic in the current thread. Please take the time to review our [forum descriptions](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/forumdisplay.php?f=15) and look over the rules and guidelines for posting here, which can be found in About This Message Board (ATMB). **twickster** , Cafe Society moderator ---
**Author:** ![descamisado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@descamisado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/descamisado)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medusas-snakes/550989/78 "2010-08-27T16:33:34Z")
Chuch! Preach it, **twickster**. I mean . . . ooops. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medusas-snakes/550989/79 "2010-08-27T23:06:43Z")
So how did an optics physics guy come to be an expert on one particular slice of ancient mythology, anyway? ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2010, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medusas-snakes/550989/80 "2010-08-27T23:52:08Z")
> [@](#): > > So how did an optics physics guy come to be an expert on one particular slice of ancient mythology, anyway? Years of dedication. Seriously. After I read Jerome Lettvin’s article _The Gorgon’s Eye_ in _Technology review_ back in 1978 I started seeking out and collecting literature on the subject. Eventually I amassed a library of binders collected from journals and books. There wasn’t a decent index for journals like the American Journal of Archaeology, so I sat in a library with the collected volumes and went through them one by one. Every time I found a good reference, I followed up all its references, then looked at the references from _those_ references. I haunted the Andover Theological Library at Harvard, and visited Medical libraries around Boston. I used the library at the American Association of Variable Stars. I’ve done the same thing with some other myths that I’m writing up now. As i sit here typing this, I have a bookcase full of 3-ring binders filled with photocopied articles that has spilled over onto the floor. Not to mention many books. I have a bookcase devoted to mythology in the basement that’s also overflowing. very time I come across a fact that might be relevant, I docket it. I contact experts in various fields and correspond with them. In a way, I’ve come to be what I have previously said i despise – an armchair expert. I don’t do fieldwork. But, boy, it’s an active armchair. I build up theories and look for evidence to buttress or disprobe my ideas. I go to meetings of the Classical Asociation of New England, the Organization of Independent Scholars, the Arunah Hill Conference, and the American Association of Variable Stars and bounce these ideas off people. That isn’t easy – finding experts to listen to you is a pain in the neck. It’s an imposition, and they have their own problems. But I keep on doing it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medusas-snakes/550989.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medusas-snakes/550989.md?page=5)