# Medved Claims Bush Hate greater than Clinton Hate **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 29, 2003, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medved-claims-bush-hate-greater-than-clinton-hate/204571 "2003-09-29T22:58:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Fang](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/96bed5/32.png) [@Fang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fang)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2003, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medved-claims-bush-hate-greater-than-clinton-hate/204571/21 "2003-09-30T05:38:14Z")
Medved is wrong, IMHO, the levels of irrational hatred were about equal for both (and I am especially talking about this for Bush before the Iraq war). However, your letter doesn’t prove it. You might as well have titled this thread “Here’s a list of shit that Bush did that I didn’t like.” Your letter’s relevance to Medved’s argument is tangential at best. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2003, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medved-claims-bush-hate-greater-than-clinton-hate/204571/22 "2003-09-30T06:20:02Z")
Well, Fang, care to give me the letter for Clinton that balances my letter for Bush? Or is any list equal to any other list, and the fact that yours will have to spend a whole lot of time talking about blowjobs be beside the point? Medved didn’t really make much of an argument. He simply asserted that hatred for Bush was worse, period. Then he invited Bush haters to call up and spew, which he then held up as proof. It wasn’t very complex. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2003, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medved-claims-bush-hate-greater-than-clinton-hate/204571/23 "2003-09-30T06:34:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by bri1600bv \* > **Let’s see. The stock market lost something like 6 trillion in wealth BEFORE Bush took office.** Cite please? ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2003, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medved-claims-bush-hate-greater-than-clinton-hate/204571/24 "2003-09-30T07:52:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DMC \* > \*\*Cite please? \*\* Here are the Russell 3000 numbers, which aren’t a perfect measure of total market capitalization, but can give you a pretty good idea. ```auto Date Index Cap (trillion US$) 2000.01 761.73 15.5 2000.02 767.72 15.6 2000.03 826.03 16.8 2000.04 797.06 16.2 2000.05 773.99 15.7 2000.06 796.44 16.2 2000.07 781.09 15.9 2000.08 838.61 17.0 2000.09 799.68 16.2 2000.10 788.02 16.0 2000.11 714.47 14.5 2000.12 725.75 14.7 2001.01 749.98 15.2 2001.02 680.52 13.8 2001.03 635.67 12.9 2001.04 686.12 13.9 2001.05 690.63 14.0 2001.06 678.2 13.8 2001.07 665.49 13.5 2001.08 625.26 12.7 2001.09 569.53 11.6 2001.10 582.22 11.8 2001.11 626.15 12.7 2001.12 634.16 12.9 2002.01 625.6 12.7 2002.02 611.89 12.4 2002.03 638.15 13.0 2002.04 608.62 12.4 2002.05 596.29 12.1 2002.06 552.65 11.2 2002.07 508.12 10.3 2002.08 509.55 10.3 2002.09 455.41 9.2 2002.10 490.95 10.0 2002.11 519.75 10.6 2002.12 489.49 9.9 2003.01 476.91 9.7 2003.02 468.15 9.5 2003.03 472.39 9.6 2003.04 510.33 10.4 2003.05 540.22 11.0 2003.06 546.74 11.1 2003.07 558.52 11.3 2003.08 570.02 11.6 ``` Capitalization peaks at $17.0T in August 2000. By January 2001, it’s down to $15.2T, a drop of $1.8T. February 2003 marked the low point of $9.5T, a drop from the peak of $7.5T. Since then, it’s recovered to $11.6T. So it looks like, from the peak to now, $1.8T drop pre-Bush, $3.6T post-Bush. ---
**Author:** ![Zenster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/cdc98d/32.png) [@Zenster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zenster)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2003, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medved-claims-bush-hate-greater-than-clinton-hate/204571/25 "2003-09-30T08:10:10Z")
Uh … **Stoid** , even if we did agree. I can’t see what there is to _factually_ debate. ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2003, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medved-claims-bush-hate-greater-than-clinton-hate/204571/26 "2003-09-30T11:13:04Z")
**Airman Doors** , while it’s obvious that **Stoid** (and others) hate Bush, he _is_ in office now. Whether you like him or not (and I voted for him), you have to accept that the current President will get some blame for the current condition of the country (and the world). People who hate Clinton have had _three years_ to ‘let it go’. And, **Stoid** , here’s another interesting item: regarding Medved’s claim that it was only people out of power who were criticizing Clinton: baloney. Tom Delay publicly accused Clinton of bombing Kosovo to distract from his impeachment: [http://slate.msn.com/id/2079324](http://slate.msn.com/id/2079324) And we needn’t get into how Rush Limbaugh spent hours every day blaming Clinton for everything back to the Civil War. It amazes me how people like Medved can remember so selectively in trying to martyr themselves. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Airman Doors, USAF \* > \*\*Wow. I’m impressed. :rolleyes: > > And you tell ME that I can’t let it go? \*\* ---
**Author:** ![Fiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e274bd/32.png) [@Fiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiver)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2003, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medved-claims-bush-hate-greater-than-clinton-hate/204571/27 "2003-09-30T11:31:32Z")
**Hentor the Barbarian** : > [@](#): > > I seem to remember that someone in the military in South Carolina once suggested that Clinton better wear a bulletproof vest when he came to visit. Are you perhaps thinking of the time a military officer at a base in the South stated, “If Clinton comes here, he’s dead?” It was during the time Clinton was trying to allow gays into the military, and was widely reported at the time, although I could only google [this cite](http://www.davidclemens.com/gaymilitary/spy93.htm) today. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2003, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medved-claims-bush-hate-greater-than-clinton-hate/204571/28 "2003-09-30T11:42:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Desmostylus \* > **February 2003 marked the low point of $9.5T, a drop from the peak of $7.5T.** Sigh. Try again: _September 2002_ marked the low point of $9._2_T, a drop from the peak of $7._8_T. ---
**Author:** ![margin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/65b543/32.png) [@margin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/margin)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2003, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medved-claims-bush-hate-greater-than-clinton-hate/204571/29 "2003-09-30T12:17:52Z")
So is Bush is just as hated or more so than Clinton? Where’s the impeachment then? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2003, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medved-claims-bush-hate-greater-than-clinton-hate/204571/30 "2003-09-30T12:21:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fiver \* > \*\ ***Hentor the Barbarian** : > > Are you perhaps thinking of the time a military officer at a base in the South stated, “If Clinton comes here, he’s dead?” It was during the time Clinton was trying to allow gays into the military, and was widely reported at the time, although I could only google [this cite](http://www.davidclemens.com/gaymilitary/spy93.htm) today. \*\* Seems like I might have been combining the two. So, have there been similar public statements implying threats of death for Bush? Is a threat of death a good indicator of hatred? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2003, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medved-claims-bush-hate-greater-than-clinton-hate/204571/31 "2003-09-30T12:39:53Z")
**Stoid** is at least consistent. She gives credit to Clinton for a strong economy that began before he was elected, and blames Bush for an economic downturn that began before _he_ was elected. You characterize Clinton’s years as those of “peace and prosperity”. By “peace”, I assume you mean bombing Iraq, Somalia, and Kosovo. By “prosperity”, I assume you mean “none of Clinton’s economic policies (increasing the deficit, preventing welfare reform, a federal takeover of health care) were implemented”. I would mention the dominant characteristic of the Clinton administration, not as peace or prosperity, but lies. You mentioned the lies about adultery (after denying for years that oral sex is sex), but did not mention the lies about Craig Livingstone, sexual harassment, campaign fund-raising, subpoenaed documents, Iraq, Filegate, Travelgate, etc., etc. At least on the SDMB, irrational Bush-haters must outnumber irrational Clinton-haters by dozens to one. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2003, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medved-claims-bush-hate-greater-than-clinton-hate/204571/32 "2003-09-30T13:20:34Z")
**Shodan** ’s partial list, though much of it is the sort of shenanigans common to virtually any Administration, is a good reminder that the disgust towards/opposition to Clinton stemmed from far more than his lying under oath about a White House peccadillo. The “forgetfulness” of his defenders is coming to match that of the Nixon apologists who still refer to the Watergate scandal as though it was nothing more than covering up an office break-in. _“At least on the SDMB, irrational Bush-haters must outnumber irrational Clinton-haters by dozens to one.”_ More like 2 or 3 to 1. But remember who’s in office now (and who has supplied plenty of fuel for hatred). The point of all this should be that irrational hate-spewing is largely ineffective and just leads to more of the same from semi-loonies on the other side. Medved probably had in mind the sort of endless yammering about Bush’s supposed stupidity, Nazi behavior etc. that you can find coming from the same sort of people that years before were speculating about Clinton’s drug and financial deals, murders in Arkansas and so on. Give it a rest. If you can’t make hay out of Bush’s policies, you’re just not trying hard enough. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2003, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medved-claims-bush-hate-greater-than-clinton-hate/204571/33 "2003-09-30T14:05:33Z")
**bri:** > [@](#): > > As for partisanship, the liberals are filibustering a Hispanic Appeals court nominee that even Clinton administration lawyers call fair-minded and impartial. They are holding him to ridiculous standards. In one hearing they wanted him to list some Supreme Court cases he disagreed with and why he did and how he would have ruled. It’s a whole new level of partisanship. This is a guy who was given an “extemely well qualified” by the ABA, but Leahy insists that Bush won’t send him “qualified candidates”. They’ve effectively created a 60 vote majority needed to confirm. You didn’t come back to the Estrada thread to defend your silly statements, and now you’re taking 'em here? C’mon. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2003, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medved-claims-bush-hate-greater-than-clinton-hate/204571/34 "2003-09-30T15:56:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by F. U. Shakespeare \* > > * * * > > And, **Stoid** , here’s another interesting item: regarding Medved’s claim that it was only people out of power who were criticizing Clinton: baloney. > > Tom Delay publicly accused Clinton of bombing Kosovo to distract from his impeachment: > \*\* Excellent point. [QUOTE] \*Originally posted by Shodan \* > [@](#): > > \*\* She gives credit to Clinton for a strong economy that began before he was elected, and blames Bush for an economic downturn that began before _he_ was elected. \*\* Not exactly. I give credit to Clinton for smart fiscal policy that helped grow and maintain the economic boom, and I blame Bush for insane fiscal policy that grows and maintains the economic downturn. Presidents don’t have everything to do with it, but they certainly don’t have NOTHING to do with it. > [@](#): > > \*\* You characterize Clinton’s years as those of “peace and prosperity”. By “peace”, I assume you mean bombing Iraq, Somalia, and Kosovo. \*\* You and I both know the distinctions between these incidents and Iraq, and I’m not going to let you drag me into that. I do not consider any and all uses of American force to be war, unacceptable or equivalent, and I doubt you do either. > [@](#): > > \*\* Craig Livingstone, sexual harassment, campaign fund-raising, subpoenaed documents, Iraq, Filegate, Travelgate, etc., etc. \*\* That’s because none of these things strikes me as anything particularly significant. Certainly not anything like the lies told by GW&Co. Please keep in mind when you make your weak little lists of inflated and unproved accusations, that despit being under the most powerful and hate-motivated microscope that any president has ever had to endure, for almost the entirety of both his terms, pretty much nothing of any weight was ever unearthed against Clinton or his administration. Certainly nothing like Iran Contra, legacy of the most beloved Republican president of the last century. ---
**Author:** ![bri1600bv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9fc29f/32.png) [@bri1600bv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bri1600bv)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2003, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medved-claims-bush-hate-greater-than-clinton-hate/204571/35 "2003-09-30T16:36:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Gadarene \* > \*\ ***bri:** > > You didn’t come back to the Estrada thread to defend your silly statements, and now you’re taking 'em here? C’mon. \*\* My statements weren’t silly. You’d have to be a little more specific than a drive by insult, but maybe that’s too much for you? The other day a judge, (no I don’t know where or who…a state judge though, I think I read it on WSJ online) said that “when choosing between the law and his conscience, he’d go with his conscience.” That in a nutshell is judicial activism. You then when on and spouted some nonsense about how at the turn of the last century (100 years ago) there was CONSERVATIVE activism. Um…so what? You never said what your point was. Besides, what in my above writing, did you disagree with? Was Estrada not claimed to be “highly qualified” by the left leaning ABA? Is that a silly statement even though it’s true? Who appointed you arbiter of “silly (but true) statements”. I bet you’re a fat ugly bitch! There, no how’s that for drive by insults? ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2003, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medved-claims-bush-hate-greater-than-clinton-hate/204571/36 "2003-09-30T16:54:58Z")
Come on back to the Estrada thread, stop hijacking this one, and answer my questions over there. ---
**Author:** ![Fang](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/96bed5/32.png) [@Fang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fang)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2003, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medved-claims-bush-hate-greater-than-clinton-hate/204571/37 "2003-09-30T17:10:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Stoid \* > \*\*Well, Fang, care to give me the letter for Clinton that balances my letter for Bush? Or is any list equal to any other list, and the fact that yours will have to spend a whole lot of time talking about blowjobs be beside the point? \*\* Nice try. First of all, I happened to like Clinton better than I like Bush. So I’m afraid I wouldn’t be the best person to give you a list on that. But second, you missed the point. I was trying to say that your letter did not actually counter the argument that Medved was making. Medved’s argument was “The level of irrational hatred for Bush is higher than the level of irrational hatred for Clinton was.” If you were trying to refute Medved’s argument, you could have argued “This is how I would measure the level of irrational hatred for Clinton, this is how I would apply the same measure to Bush, and thus you can see that Clinton’s is greater than/equal to Bush’s.” That would have been an argument, not a rant. \*\* > [@](#): > > Medved didn’t really make much of an argument. He simply asserted that hatred for Bush was worse, period. Then he invited Bush haters to call up and spew, which he then held up as proof. It wasn’t very complex. \*\* Looks like you took the bait. ---
**Author:** ![CyberPundit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/76d3ee/32.png) [@CyberPundit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CyberPundit)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2003, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medved-claims-bush-hate-greater-than-clinton-hate/204571/38 "2003-09-30T17:16:28Z")
"By “prosperity”, I assume you mean “none of Clinton’s economic policies (increasing the deficit, preventing welfare reform, a federal takeover of health care) were implemented”. " This is false. Clinton increased taxes in1993 and restrained military spending and both had a major impact on the reduced deficits during his administration. This in turn led to lower interest rates which increased investment and growth. It’s also important to note that the economy really took off in terms of productivity growth only in the mid-90’s. Clinton also took political risks for free trade (especially NAFTA) something which Bush has conspicuously failed to do. His team also helped prevent total disaster during the financial crises in Mexico and East Asia. There were also a number of smaller initiatives like the expansion of EITC which cumulatively have had a fairly significant impact. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2003, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medved-claims-bush-hate-greater-than-clinton-hate/204571/39 "2003-09-30T17:21:30Z")
I don’t know what the argument here is. Everyone knows that “Your partisan hacks hate my favorite president more than my partisan hacks hate your favorite president”. It’s self evident. ---
**Author:** ![Stephe96](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Stephe96](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stephe96)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2003, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medved-claims-bush-hate-greater-than-clinton-hate/204571/40 "2003-09-30T17:37:25Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by Stoid \* \*\*And I respond… He also told one caller that they were “imagining” things when they said that this administration tries to characterize dissent as America-hating or unpatriotic. Do you happen to have a cite for this claim? Who in this administration has called anyone “unpatriotic?” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medved-claims-bush-hate-greater-than-clinton-hate/204571.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medved-claims-bush-hate-greater-than-clinton-hate/204571.md?page=3)