# Medved Claims Bush Hate greater than Clinton Hate **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 29, 2003, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medved-claims-bush-hate-greater-than-clinton-hate/204571 "2003-09-29T22:58:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2003, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medved-claims-bush-hate-greater-than-clinton-hate/204571/41 "2003-09-30T17:42:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by capacitor \* > \*\*I got a pay cut, and I work for the government! Way to go, Bush! \*\* Welcome to the real world. I didn’t realize that a govt. job was supposed to be immune from pay-cuts. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2003, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medved-claims-bush-hate-greater-than-clinton-hate/204571/42 "2003-09-30T17:47:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by margin \* > So is Bush is just as hated or more so than Clinton? Where’s the impeachment then? Richard Melon-Scafe and the Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy™ may be crazy, but even they don’t turn on their own. Yet. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2003, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medved-claims-bush-hate-greater-than-clinton-hate/204571/43 "2003-09-30T17:50:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fang \* > \*\* I was trying to say that your letter did not actually counter the argument that Medved was making. Medved’s argument was “The level of irrational hatred for Bush is higher than the level of irrational hatred for Clinton was.” If you were trying to refute Medved’s argument, \*\* Two things… You used the word “irrational”, not me. Medved might have, but I don’t recall it at all. So remove that from the argument. I wasn’t trying to \* refute \* him, which is why I said in the first paragraph that I \* accepted \* the basic premise as a fact, even though I think it’s difficult to measure. What I was arguing, and of course not everyone would agree with me, was that if the premise is true, there is a very good reason for it to be true. Recall that \* my \* point was values…You hate Joe, I hate Jane. You hate Joe because you think he’s slimy and slick and he beat your guy and he sleeps around on his wife and he might have done a whole bunch of other stuff, maybe, even though you can’t prove it to save your life. I hate Jane because she’s shamed my nation and caused what I believe to be wholly unnecessary deaths of my fellow Americans, (along with many other destructive things). I don’t consider these things equivalent. That would be MY point. ---
**Author:** ![Fang](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/96bed5/32.png) [@Fang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fang)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2003, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medved-claims-bush-hate-greater-than-clinton-hate/204571/44 "2003-09-30T17:55:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Stoid \* > \*\*What I was arguing, and of course not everyone would agree with me, was that if the premise is true, there is a very good reason for it to be true. \*\* So basically the mention of Medved is irrelevant, and all you want to argue is why Bush is a worse president than Clinton was? ---
**Author:** ![Sofa\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/58956e/32.png) [@Sofa\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sofa_King)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2003, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medved-claims-bush-hate-greater-than-clinton-hate/204571/45 "2003-09-30T18:11:25Z")
Why isn’t this simply called “justifiable exasperation”? As at least one participant in this thread has pointed out, one can loathe a previous president without having to support the present one. I would point out that since the current President is enjoying an _especially_ free ride due to the “war climate” (upon which I personally think his Administration is attempting to foment and capitalize) and the expiration of the special prosecutor laws. If there _were_ an extant and effective special prosecutor law, that prosecutor would have been appointed in 2002–perhaps earlier–to [investigate](http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A45718-2002Oct4) the suspiciously mining-friendly actions of Deputy Secretary of the Interior [J. Stephen Griles](http://www.foe.org/new/releases/0603griles.html). And, had the last pattern of investigation been repeated, the President himself would now be examined for at least two impeachable offenses, [lying to Congress](http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/06/06/findlaw.analysis.dean.wmd/) and [manipulating an intelligence agency](http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/special/iraq/2000162). There is already testimony on the Senate record to support that second one. And then of course there is this week’s [scandal](http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/09/30/wilson.cia/index.html), which already points in the direction of outright treason–and _l’eminance grise_ of the Bush Adminitration, Karl Rove, has been named. Some non-partisan people have to be saying to themselves, “why does this guy get a pass when we came _this close_ to nailing the Executive Branch down to a new standard of honesty just four years ago?” I would suggest that it isn’t _only_ pro-Clinton/anti-Bush people who are creating the simmer of dissent. I suspect that the “hatred” for Bush comes from all sectors of the populace which place honesty, honor, and accountability above partisan politics. And with that in mind, Medved may actually be correct, because there is more to be indignant about, with much larger ramifications, and less being done about it since the days of the Teapot Dome. And unlike Clinton’s transgressions, which managed to damage a dress, Bush’s actions are affecting families in every state in the nation. Why shouldn’t those people be pissed? ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2003, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medved-claims-bush-hate-greater-than-clinton-hate/204571/46 "2003-09-30T18:29:13Z")
\*\*bri1600bv \*\* > [@](#): > > I bet you’re a fat ugly bitch! There, no how’s that for drive by insults? [Moderator Hat ON] bri1600bv, you can critique a poster’s arguments, logic or posts, but you cannot personally insult them in this forum. [Moderator Hat OFF] ---
**Author:** ![Sofa\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/58956e/32.png) [@Sofa\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sofa_King)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2003, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medved-claims-bush-hate-greater-than-clinton-hate/204571/47 "2003-09-30T19:44:20Z")
Just to underscore what I’m saying, I give you the two most recent editorials by the founder of Capitol Hill Blue, Doug Thompson, who decidedly _is_ a Clinton-burner and in my experience is generally right-leaning: [Screwing the Pooch](http://www.capitolhillblue.com/artman/publish/article_3159.shtml) [Fools and Their Freedoms are Soon Parted](http://www.capitolhillblue.com/artman/publish/article_3104.shtml) > [@](#): > > The Washington Post followed up over the weekend, the Democrats smelled blood and a new, full-bore Washington scandal surfaced. Now the Dems want a special prosecutor and the White House, as expected, says it knows the Justice Department can handle any investigation. > > That’s right. The Justice Department. The same Justice Department that sat on its hands for weeks after the CIA first complained – the same Justice Department run by a wannabe despot who thinks due process is a waste of time and individual rights an outdated concept. > > Congressional Republicans, who demanded a special prosecutor every time Bill Clinton farted, stand firm with their President, saying an independent investigation is a waste of time and money. > > And Dubya’s ever-present Greek Chorus circled the wagons, claiming – as they always do – that is all part of some grand liberal Democratic scheme to embarrass the White House and take back the Presidency in 2004. > > As usual, they have it wrong… ---
**Author:** ![RTA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b4bc9f/32.png) [@RTA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTA)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2003, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medved-claims-bush-hate-greater-than-clinton-hate/204571/48 "2003-09-30T22:34:54Z")
While I agree with **Stoid** , it’s really not worth the effort to attempt to refresh his memory on the savagery of the vast right wing conspiracy. It’s going to be in one ear and out the other with that guy. Such efforts are better directed towards the voting public at large. Medved is like Ned Flanders. That is, if Ned Flanders had the same job as _The Critic_, and tried to present himself as having the wisdom and nobility of Kermit the Frog, but in reality blending the busybody morality of Peggy Hill with the yes-man bootlicking of a Dr. Zoidberg. What of this notion? Clinton haters were mobilized and motivated **from above** by daily “talking points” that oozed via Imus, Limbaugh etc.; Bush haters are mobilizing and motivating **themselves** because they are finally getting it in their heads that the so-called “culture war” is actually a fight to the death and the opposition is better organized. ---
**Author:** ![Fang](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/96bed5/32.png) [@Fang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fang)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2003, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medved-claims-bush-hate-greater-than-clinton-hate/204571/49 "2003-09-30T23:23:35Z")
Interestingly enough, _New York Times_ columnist David Brooks almost this very subject in his [column today](http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/30/opinion/30BROO.html) (free registration required). ---
**Author:** ![aramis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e68b1a/32.png) [@aramis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aramis)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2003, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medved-claims-bush-hate-greater-than-clinton-hate/204571/50 "2003-09-30T23:55:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Desmostylus \* > … > So it looks like, from the peak to now, $1.8T drop pre-Bush, $3.6T post-Bush. \*\* I took the liberty of graphing the numbers you posted and it appears that the pre-Bush decline of which you speak so triumphantly took place for the most part in the period between the election and the inauguration on Jan 2001. In fact, Nov 2000 has the single largest drop of any other single period. Based solely on these numbers, I’d conclude that it wasn’t Clinton’s failings but the looming spectre of Bush that caused the decline. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2003, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medved-claims-bush-hate-greater-than-clinton-hate/204571/51 "2003-10-01T00:38:05Z")
Gosh, the hatred you people have for your Presidents is just… well, I’m tempted to say “awe-inspiring” but that doesn’t quite fit the bill. Be like us, in favour of “Law and good government” instead of “Law and _good God my government is eeeevil!_” ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2003, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medved-claims-bush-hate-greater-than-clinton-hate/204571/52 "2003-10-01T06:30:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bryan Ekers \* > Be like us, in favour of “Law and good government” instead of “Law and _good God my government is eeeevil!_” You can get away with that only because your country doesn’t have a sizable voting bloc that corresponds to our “Religious Right.” 😉 These are the folks who turned a milquetoast semi-conservative moderate like Bill Clinton into a fire-breathing daemon, which gave them eight years of “my government is eeeevil!” chest-beating. Then they rally behind George W. Bush, who ends up scaring even the moderate conservatives with his policies – and we’re _all_ screaming “my government is eeeevil!” as a result. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2003, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medved-claims-bush-hate-greater-than-clinton-hate/204571/53 "2003-10-01T08:06:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by aramis \* > I took the liberty of graphing the numbers you posted and it appears that the pre-Bush decline **of which you speak so triumphantly** took place for the most part in the period between the election and the inauguration on Jan 2001. In fact, Nov 2000 has the single largest drop of any other single period. > > Based solely on these numbers, I’d conclude that it wasn’t Clinton’s failings but the looming spectre of Bush that caused the decline. Look, sport, I posted a table of numbers and pointed out the maximum, the minimum, and the values on two particular dates. Any “triumph” you read into what I posted is entirely in your head. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2003, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medved-claims-bush-hate-greater-than-clinton-hate/204571/54 "2003-10-01T12:45:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bryan Ekers \* > \*\*Be like us, in favour of “Law and good government”… \*\* And secession. At least we got over secession 138 years ago. Well, _most_ of us got over it. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2003, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medved-claims-bush-hate-greater-than-clinton-hate/204571/55 "2003-10-01T18:13:37Z")
[NY Times](http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/01/opinion/L01BROO.html) readers rebut Brooks, pointing out that hatred of the Bush administration is over his policies, not his person. **rjung** : > [@](#): > > Richard Melon-Scafe and the Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy™ may be crazy, but even they don’t turn on their own. Yet. May I introduce you to the newly-remodeled [Drudge](http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2003/10/01/drudge/index.html) > [@](#): > > Just look at a sample of Drudge’s headlines, from one week early in September: > > “FORCES STRAINING IN IRAQ MISSIONS, CONGRESS IS TOLD … Army troops, Budget Stretched to the Limit.” > > “COUNTRIES WARY IN REACTING TO BUSH’S SPEECH ON IRAQ …” > > “ZOGBY POLL: Bush Numbers Hit New Low; Dean Tops List of Dem Presidential Contenders …” > > “Report Finds Size of Government Up Sharply Under Bush …” > > "Secret Pentagon Report Faults War Planning for Iraq … " > > “U.S. Lacks Manpower to Keep Current Occupation Force in Iraq Past March.” Whore or convert? You make the call. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2003, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medved-claims-bush-hate-greater-than-clinton-hate/204571/56 "2003-10-01T18:22:10Z")
Maybe he’s like me and just anti-incumbent? ---
**Author:** ![Fang](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/96bed5/32.png) [@Fang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fang)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2003, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medved-claims-bush-hate-greater-than-clinton-hate/204571/57 "2003-10-01T20:48:13Z")
Instead of there not being a conspiracy, there is a conspiracy but it doesn’t stand up for the people on whose behalf it conspires. Occum is rolling in his grave. ---
**Author:** ![duality72](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duality72/32/3910_2.png) [@duality72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duality72)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2003, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medved-claims-bush-hate-greater-than-clinton-hate/204571/58 "2003-10-01T21:15:38Z")
Brooks’ column also [willfully ignores](http://www.dailyhowler.com/dh100103.shtml) much of Chait’s TNR piece to hold it up as just more irrational hatred on the left. ---
**Author:** ![NDP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ndp/32/55_2.png) [@NDP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NDP)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2003, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medved-claims-bush-hate-greater-than-clinton-hate/204571/59 "2003-10-01T22:47:31Z")
Regarding the OP, I wouldn’t get too worked up about what Medved says. He’s just parroting the line recently put forth by a number of conservative commentators like the aforementioned Brooks and Charles Krauthhamer and other right-wing radio ranters that George W. Bush is such a great and beloved figure that any opposition to his policies must be entirely based on blind, irrational, and personal hatred for the man. Thus, there’s no need to address any criticism of, say, Bush’s rationale for invading Iraq because it is likely just the spiteful opinion of some chronic malcontents on the left. As for me, I don’t personally hate Bush. However, I certainly do have a distaste for his policies and the excessive devotion of his supporters. ---
**Author:** ![NDP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ndp/32/55_2.png) [@NDP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NDP)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2003, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medved-claims-bush-hate-greater-than-clinton-hate/204571/60 "2003-10-01T22:47:31Z")
Regarding the OP, I wouldn’t get too worked up about what Medved says. He’s just parroting the line recently put forth by a number of conservative commentators like the aforementioned Brooks and Charles Krauthhamer and other right-wing radio ranters that George W. Bush is such a great and beloved figure that any opposition to his policies must be entirely based on blind, irrational, and personal hatred for the man. Thus, there’s no need to address any criticism of, say, Bush’s rationale for invading Iraq because it is likely just the spiteful opinion of some chronic malcontents on the left. As for me, I don’t personally hate Bush. However, I certainly do have a distaste for his policies and the excessive devotion of his supporters. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medved-claims-bush-hate-greater-than-clinton-hate/204571.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/medved-claims-bush-hate-greater-than-clinton-hate/204571.md?page=4)