# Meenie7's invisible friend **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 22, 2008, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meenie7s-invisible-friend/457409 "2008-07-22T19:38:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2008, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meenie7s-invisible-friend/457409/201 "2008-07-24T00:30:00Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] Wrong, in multiple ways. The laws of physics DO speak on the subject of ghosts; there’s no room for them. There’s no way within the known laws of physics they could exist. And yes, they would study one if one came along; but none ever has, so your point is moot. [/QUOTE] There’s no room for anything in physics - until something comes along and proves that it exists. That’s why when that happens they have to _change the rules_. Matter cannot be created or destroyed - whoops, quarks and the like do it all the time! Well, dammit, gotta change the rules again! Physics isn’t going to get into an argument with reality over what’s real. If the astonishing and wildly implausible happened and Marcus turned out to have objectively verifiable reality then physics would dump you and your dogmatic assertions against like the bad habit they are. [QUOTE=Der Trihs] And, my approach **wouldn’t** have me reject “everything from einsteinian physics on forward”. Einstein’s theories explained observed phenomenon that didn’t have conventional explanations, and made predictions that could and were tested. And, neither his theories nor his predictions cared if you were sceptical or not. As he pointed out when some physicists who didn’t like his theories published a pamphlet called “100 Physicists Against Einstein”, “If I was wrong it would take only one.” Rather the opposite of the claims in favor of things like ghosts and gods, where the first defense of the claim is not to provide evidence, but to forbid criticism or skepticism. [/QUOTE] Maybe this particular ghost can be tested too - as in “of course it can”. Reasonable tests have already been proposed. _Be_ critical. _Be_ a skeptic. But when you switch from saying “I’m not convinced,” and “show me some decent proof first or I ain’t gonna buy it,” to “I already know!!” and “screw a test, I _know_ you’re delusional or lying!!!”, you have crossed to the other side of the fence and become one of the hundred. ---
**Author:** ![meenie7](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7993a0/32.png) [@meenie7](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/meenie7)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2008, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meenie7s-invisible-friend/457409/202 "2008-07-24T00:30:55Z")
[QUOTE=Fear Itself] Marcus should have told you. [/QUOTE] You have a point there. Since I don’t remember posting it, I obviously don’t remember if he happened to be in the room with me when I posted it. Of course, he could have forgotten too, even if he was here. It’s just one post four years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2008, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meenie7s-invisible-friend/457409/203 "2008-07-24T00:49:24Z")
[QUOTE=Qwisp] I must of missed that. Is there a link to a thread dismissing his stories as fiction? [/QUOTE] Not sure if it still exists. IIRC, a Doper found similar stories on another site and started a thread to ask about them. **MWC** noticed the thread and posted that, except for a couple of his stories, they were all fiction. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2008, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meenie7s-invisible-friend/457409/204 "2008-07-24T00:55:33Z")
[QUOTE=cmyk] Posting that you’re hanging out with and kissing ghosts at the Dope, is like sticking a weed-whacker in a toilet full of turds. [/QUOTE] She averages about one seventh of a post per day; if she is a troll, she ain’t much of one. ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2008, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meenie7s-invisible-friend/457409/205 "2008-07-24T00:56:52Z")
[QUOTE=Lute Skywatcher] She averages about one seventh of a post per day; if she is a troll, she ain’t much of one. [/QUOTE] Ok, so she’s a week troll. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2008, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meenie7s-invisible-friend/457409/206 "2008-07-24T02:37:22Z")
[QUOTE=Q.E.D.] Ok, so she’s a week troll. [/QUOTE] Or a seventh-day antagonist. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2008, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meenie7s-invisible-friend/457409/207 "2008-07-24T03:02:30Z")
[QUOTE=begbert2] There’s no room for anything in physics - until something comes along and proves that it exists. That’s why when that happens they have to _change the rules_. Matter cannot be created or destroyed - whoops, quarks and the like do it all the time! Well, dammit, gotta change the rules again! Physics isn’t going to get into an argument with reality over what’s real. If the astonishing and wildly implausible happened and Marcus turned out to have objectively verifiable reality then physics would dump you and your dogmatic assertions against like the bad habit they are. Maybe this particular ghost can be tested too - as in “of course it can”. Reasonable tests have already been proposed. _Be_ critical. _Be_ a skeptic. But when you switch from saying “I’m not convinced,” and “show me some decent proof first or I ain’t gonna buy it,” to “I already know!!” and “screw a test, I _know_ you’re delusional or lying!!!”, you have crossed to the other side of the fence and become one of the hundred. [/QUOTE] There are only two explanations for **meenie’s** claims which conform to the known laws of physics: deception or delusion. The simple assumption that physically impossible hypotheses are physically impossible is not something that has to be proven. It is the rational default. If you can’t assume the impossible is impossible then you can’t do science. You can never prove anything wasn’t magic. As for testing, what reasonable test has been proposed? How are we even defining the word “ghost?” what test would distinguish a “ghost,” from say, an invisible goblin who’s lying and saying he’s a ghost? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2008, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meenie7s-invisible-friend/457409/208 "2008-07-24T03:10:27Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] As for testing, what reasonable test has been proposed? How are we even defining the word “ghost?” what test would distinguish a “ghost,” from say, an invisible goblin who’s lying and saying he’s a ghost? [/QUOTE] That’s funny, I thought you _started_ this thread out of dismay that such tests were being discussed, and I quote: > [@](#): > > Either way, HE IS COMPLETELY FULL OF SHIT and I wish people would quit humoring him. If he’s a liar, you’re just feeding a troll, if he’s not a liar, you’re encouraging a mentally ill person in his delusions when you should be urging him to get help. Are you getting soft in your dotage? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2008, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meenie7s-invisible-friend/457409/209 "2008-07-24T03:12:40Z")
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] That’s funny, I thought you _started_ this thread out of dismay that such tests were being discussed, and I quote: Are you getting soft in your dotage? [/QUOTE] I don’t understand your point here. Both of those quotes are disparaging the idea that her claims can be tested – at least not on a message board. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2008, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meenie7s-invisible-friend/457409/210 "2008-07-24T03:18:11Z")
[QUOTE=begbert2] There are NO claims that are so absurd that science can just assert that it knows they’re false without testing them. [/QUOTE] Wrong. There are those that are logically inconsistent, or those that the claim makers refuse to produce any evidence to make such tests, or to permit reliable tests to be made. Scientists declare absurd, baseless claims to be impossible on a regular basis, or simply ignore them as not worth bothering with. [QUOTE=begbert2] There’s no room for anything in physics - until something comes along and proves that it exists. That’s why when that happens they have to _change the rules_. Matter cannot be created or destroyed - whoops, quarks and the like do it all the time! Well, dammit, gotta change the rules again! [/quote] There’s room for an immense amount of things; such as everything we know to exist, and much that’s only theoretically possible. And the alterations or extensions of the rules require **evidence**. [QUOTE=begbert2] Physics isn’t going to get into an argument with reality over what’s real. If the astonishing and wildly implausible happened and Marcus turned out to have objectively verifiable reality then physics would dump you and your dogmatic assertions against like the bad habit they are. [/quote] Ah, yes, I’m “dogmatic” for dismissing the wild claims of people who deny known physics with no evidence to support their claims. I’m not flatly denying such nonsense as ghosts because I’m dogmatic; I’m doing so because the known laws say it can’t happen, and the people who claim otherwise **can’t or won’t produce any evidence**. There isn’t going to be “argument between reality and physics” over this sort of thing, because it isn’t real. Just as with religion, the believers have had thousands of years to produce evidence, and failed utterly. Why ? Because they are fools, lunatics, and liars. [QUOTE=begbert2] _Be_ critical. _Be_ a skeptic. But when you switch from saying “I’m not convinced,” and “show me some decent proof first or I ain’t gonna buy it,” to “I already know!!” and “screw a test, I _know_ you’re delusional or lying!!!”, you have crossed to the other side of the fence and become one of the hundred. [/QUOTE] A silly statement. I don’t need to test every insane, evidence free claim that I come across to know that they are garbage. Not only do I have plenty of evidence that the world works in a way that forbids such phenomenon, but the people making those claims never provide the evidence for me to make a judgement on anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2008, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meenie7s-invisible-friend/457409/211 "2008-07-24T03:18:48Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] I don’t understand your point here. Both of those quotes are disparaging the idea that her claims can be tested – at least not on a message board. [/QUOTE] My point is that by your own standard, the very act of even _discussing_ a test of “Marcus” means you’ve fallen victim to whatever it was you were railing about in your OP - you’ve started to either feed meenie (if she’s a troll) or humour her (if she’s delusional). ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2008, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meenie7s-invisible-friend/457409/212 "2008-07-24T03:30:18Z")
Hey **meenie7** I just read the 4 year old post. Why didn’t you tell Marcus he was full of shit when he told you there were no other ghosts around, everyone else just disappeared after death? Why didn’t you tell him that he was just one of many? ---
**Author:** ![meenie7](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7993a0/32.png) [@meenie7](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/meenie7)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2008, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meenie7s-invisible-friend/457409/213 "2008-07-24T03:38:59Z")
[QUOTE=don’t ask] Hey **meenie7** I just read the 4 year old post. Why didn’t you tell Marcus he was full of shit when he told you there were no other ghosts around, everyone else just disappeared after death? Why didn’t you tell him that he was just one of many? [/QUOTE] I never said there were no other ghosts. Also, the 4 yr old post was written before I got into skepticism and found out the natural explanations for randomly hearing your name in white noise or thinking you feel a fleeting cold hand or whatever. And I don’t tend to tell my friends they’re “full of shit” anyway, because that’s mean. At first, I did tell him I thought he was wrong, and that I had run into other ghosts, and he just told me what he had seen and experienced (i.e., a lot less ghosts than most believers would think are really around, and most of them are hostile.) ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2008, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meenie7s-invisible-friend/457409/214 "2008-07-24T04:29:48Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] Originally Posted by Der Trihs Wrong, in multiple ways. The laws of physics DO speak on the subject of ghosts; there’s no room for them. [/QUOTE] I guess we can say for certain that Marcus is never going to be a physicist then. [QUOTE=meenie7] I never said there were no other ghosts. Also, the 4 yr old post was written before I got into skepticism and found out the natural explanations for randomly hearing your name in white noise or thinking you feel a fleeting cold hand or whatever. And I don’t tend to tell my friends they’re “full of shit” anyway, because that’s mean. At first, I did tell him I thought he was wrong, and that I had run into other ghosts, and he just told me what he had seen and experienced (i.e., a lot less ghosts than most believers would think are really around, and most of them are hostile.) [/QUOTE] Just to let you know in interest of solidarity, I’ve had weirder than hell experiences I haven’t shared also that are way stranger than the ones I have. For obvious reasons, I think I’ll not share them here. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2008, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meenie7s-invisible-friend/457409/215 "2008-07-24T04:35:53Z")
Damnit, am I the only one who has never had a weird moment? No ghosts, no Draculas, no Frankensteins. NOTHING. No one calling “Lowenstein” in the breeze, no haunted houses, no feeling like something’s passing through me. And I always wanted stuff like that to happen–I read tons of horror as a child. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2008, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meenie7s-invisible-friend/457409/216 "2008-07-24T04:42:50Z")
PS- (to Meenie) I started to PM but would rather express openly that the 4 year old thread convinces me that _you_ believe Marcus is real. And, for what it’s worth, you don’t seem insane to me. (All things are relative, of course: I grew up with one great aunt who’d had a lobotomy and was an exhibitionist, another who made Nativity sets out of dead cats, a grandmother who went to funerals of people she didn’t know for free food, I have a Fundamentalist millionaire sister who thinks Hillary Clinton used to be a man, a father who used to begin each morning by singing Civil War songs or Sons of the Pioneers medleys to his cows, had a mother who believed it was alright if you shot _around_ your husband as long as you didn’t shoot straight _at_ him, and then I managed an apartment complex for schizophrenics, so the beam for what _does_ sound crazy is set pretty high- _however_, in the strangest compliment you’ll receive today perhaps, when I _was_ managing an apartment complex for schizophrenics I’d have been honored to have you two as residents, for if Marcus is a delusion at least he’s a very interesting, colorful, and consistent one, and that’s more than I can say for those who actually lived there. 😛 ) ---
**Author:** ![meenie7](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7993a0/32.png) [@meenie7](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/meenie7)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2008, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meenie7s-invisible-friend/457409/217 "2008-07-24T05:01:05Z")
[QUOTE=Sampiro] PS- (to Meenie) I started to PM but would rather express openly that the 4 year old thread convinces me that _you_ believe Marcus is real. And, for what it’s worth, you don’t seem insane to me. (All things are relative, of course: I grew up with one great aunt who’d had a lobotomy and was an exhibitionist, another who made Nativity sets out of dead cats, a grandmother who went to funerals of people she didn’t know for free food, I have a Fundamentalist millionaire sister who thinks Hillary Clinton used to be a man, a father who used to begin each morning by singing Civil War songs or Sons of the Pioneers medleys to his cows, had a mother who believed it was alright if you shot _around_ your husband as long as you didn’t shoot straight _at_ him, and then I managed an apartment complex for schizophrenics, so the beam for what _does_ sound crazy is set pretty high- _however_, in the strangest compliment you’ll receive today perhaps, when I _was_ managing an apartment complex for schizophrenics I’d have been honored to have you two as residents, for if Marcus is a delusion at least he’s a very interesting, colorful, and consistent one, and that’s more than I can say for those who actually lived there. 😛 ) [/QUOTE] That is a strange compliment, but thank you. 🙂 I’ve worked with a real schizophrenic and her endless diatribes about her neighbors stealing her mail and spying on her were, IMO, much less interesting than Marcus. Also, your family stories are always fascinating reading. There just isn’t that amazing level of strangeness in my family, it seems. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2008, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meenie7s-invisible-friend/457409/218 "2008-07-24T05:08:02Z")
[QUOTE=meenie7] I never said there were no other ghosts. Also, the 4 yr old post was written before I got into skepticism and found out the natural explanations for randomly hearing your name in white noise or thinking you feel a fleeting cold hand or whatever. And I don’t tend to tell my friends they’re “full of shit” anyway, because that’s mean. At first, I did tell him I thought he was wrong, and that I had run into other ghosts, and he just told me what he had seen and experienced (i.e., a lot less ghosts than most believers would think are really around, and most of them are hostile.) [/QUOTE] You persist in the claim that you are a skeptic. You are not. A skeptic would exhaust all rational explanations for your ‘invisible friend’ before even considering anything else. You, on the contrary, refuse to accept the possibility of such an explanation (mental illness, for instance). Your mind remains closed to all but the supernatural. That’s credulousness, not skepticism. ---
**Author:** ![meenie7](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7993a0/32.png) [@meenie7](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/meenie7)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2008, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meenie7s-invisible-friend/457409/219 "2008-07-24T05:38:50Z")
[QUOTE=aldiboronti] You persist in the claim that you are a skeptic. You are not. A skeptic would exhaust all rational explanations for your ‘invisible friend’ before even considering anything else. You, on the contrary, refuse to accept the possibility of such an explanation (mental illness, for instance). Your mind remains closed to all but the supernatural. That’s credulousness, not skepticism. [/QUOTE] I never said that it couldn’t be mental illness. All I have said is that I’m not lying about what I perceive. And I wasn’t aware that to be a skeptic, you absolutely have to cast a skeptical eye at every area of the normal skeptic targets. So, maybe I’m credulous about this one thing. So sorry to be human and imperfect. I still don’t believe in psychics or astrology or alt med or those silly people who go into houses and wave EMF meters around and say they detected ghosts when they really detected electrical cords. You don’t get to decide what the True Skeptics are, and exclude me from it because I have one belief you don’t agree with. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2008, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meenie7s-invisible-friend/457409/220 "2008-07-24T05:43:19Z")
[QUOTE=dropzone] [Quote=tomndebb] Now, I realize that in your odd view of the world, once something finds itself in GD, there is some sort of divine requirement that every aspect of the phenomenon or event must be examined in the most critical light and challenged for any deviation from a mechanistic worldview. For better or worse, I do not share that view. [/quote] Well, you may be a mod there and your definition of the forum may, in your mind, be THE definition, but, as many people have pointed out, THAT’S NOT HOW GREAT DEBATES WORKS!!! And you CANNOT go redefining it as you please. [/QUOTE] I do not intend to redefine the Forum. However, someone has to moderate the sound and fury in that forum and, currently, I am one of those responsible for that moderation. One thing I have noted over the years has been that threads may contain very polite sidebar discussions that really do not impinge on the overall discussion. Given that **meenie7** originally posted in an **IMHO** thread, has basically done nothing more than respond to questions in the thread, both before and after its move to **GD** , has never asserted any universal truths of ghostliness, and has made no effort to persuade anyone that she speaks The Truth, then, in my Mod capacity, I decided that I would view an interactive conversation among multiple posters that began outside **Great Debates** and continued after the thread was moved to **Great Debates** to be, effectively, a sidebar conversation that simply happens to be in that thread. At no time did I tell anyone to accept the reality of ghosts. At no time did I tell anyone to accept **meenie7** ’s anecdotes at face value. At no time did I tell anyone that they could not question **meenie7** or challenge the possibility of ghosts. All I really said in that thread was that I wanted the questions/challenges/attacks to avoid getting personal and all I have really said in this thread is that I do not believe that it is necessary in **Great Debates** that the immediate response to encountering an odd anecdote is to attack it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meenie7s-invisible-friend/457409.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meenie7s-invisible-friend/457409.md?page=12)