# Meenie7's invisible friend **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 22, 2008, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meenie7s-invisible-friend/457409 "2008-07-22T19:38:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 24
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meenie7s-invisible-friend/457409/461 "2008-07-29T00:56:52Z")
[QUOTE=Labrador Deceiver] Bullshit. You accused me of holding a position, and I want your pathetic little pea brain to come up with a citation for it. You’re damn right I fucking win, because you haven’t got so much as a toothpick to stand on. [/QUOTE] I am so glad that I used the descriptor “frothing at the mouth” to describe you. Your post is my cite. Several pages back you’re screaming at Diogenes for taking olives to task for saying “I’m so jealous! I want a ghost friend!” Well, there ain’t no such thing as ghost friends, and meenie’s insistence that she has one is nothing to be jealous of. I agree with Diogenes; statements like that, no matter how well intended, are part of the bullshit enabling going on in this thread. But you didactically take him to task instead of taking the reality of the situation into account. It’s obvious that you’re pissed at Diogenes and you’re letting it interfere with your logic function. Also, you “me too”'ed on begbert’s argument, which holds no water scientifically, also pretty sad. I’m sure you’re going to disagree and call me some more names, probably swear some more. This is exactly why I was not posting to this thread regularly-- people are worked up into a lather and any sort of disagreement sends them into a frenzy. I realize this is the Pit so your pobably feel like you need to throw the de rigeur “you’re a fucking moron” post into the mix. Doesn’t make you right, no matter how hard you flail around. begbert, post #221, 5 pages ago. I also said it before this little slapfight with LD started. Extraordinary claims, blah blah. The onus is on the extraordinary claimer to provide evidence. Without it, people are going to think you are crazy or lying. IF you provide it, in this case, you’d change the world radically. But no one ever has. Case rests. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meenie7s-invisible-friend/457409/462 "2008-07-29T01:01:47Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] Nothing has to be asserted or proven _not_ to exist, dumbshit. It’s the default presumption. If you want to even assert that something called a “ghost” is even _possible_,YOU have to define what you’re talking about. As far as science is concerned, “ghost” is just a nonsense word like “glurp” or “schnork.” Can you prove schnorks don’t exist. i guess they mist be “possible” then. I can tell you that whatever does exist must have properties which obey the laws of physics, and the conception of “ghosts” as they are usually presented in popular fancy do not conform to physical laws, ergo they are _physically impossible_ and may be safely dismissed out of hand as an explanatory hyothesis for anything, especially since thewy would explain nothing which can’t already be explained by purely natural causes. **Meenie** does not have a ghost friend. I’m not being unreasonable for stating the fucking obvious. [/QUOTE] **Dio** you sonofabitch, you are so totally right. I’m sorry guys, but it’s completely 100% reasonable to state that **meenie** does not have a ghost friend. While I don’t agree that the remaining options are the ‘‘batshit/liar’’ dichotomy, I agree that the probability **meenie** knows an actual ghost are pretty astronomical. **Begbert** and \*\*KGS \*\*et. al may be understandably upset by **Dio** ’s vitriol and hardheadedness in this thread but I don’t think there’s anything off about his interpretation of science. He is not out of line here. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meenie7s-invisible-friend/457409/463 "2008-07-29T01:04:06Z")
[QUOTE=Rubystreak, post #221] Well, that’s not quite true. There is room in physics for new ideas where objectively observable phenomena can be documented but not explained by the old rules. That’s where Einstein slipped in. When Marcus is objectively observed and documented, then there is in fact room in physics for him, even if he can’t be explained by what we know now. [/QUOTE] I agree with all of this. [QUOTE=Rubystreak, post #221] Can he be? I think we all know the answer to that. [/QUOTE] Yes; the answer is _of course he can._ All agreement = no response. Sorry, I don’t usually engage in mutual pat-on-the-backs. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meenie7s-invisible-friend/457409/464 "2008-07-29T01:05:58Z")
And I must say, it’s amazing and discouraging how many people here apparently have _no clue_ what I’m saying in my posts. What, am I speaking in swahili or something? ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meenie7s-invisible-friend/457409/465 "2008-07-29T01:06:24Z")
[QUOTE=begbert2] Yes; the answer is _of course he can._ [/quote] And my answer is-- of course he can’t. And if you disagree with that, you need to prove it. You certainly can’t claim it’s true otherwise and expect any rational person to agree with you or not give you a :dubious: . olives, you are the most sane Doper of all. Hat’s off. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meenie7s-invisible-friend/457409/466 "2008-07-29T01:08:53Z")
[QUOTE=Rubystreak] I am so glad that I used the descriptor “frothing at the mouth” to describe you. Your post is my cite. Several pages back you’re screaming at Diogenes for taking olives to task for saying “I’m so jealous! I want a ghost friend!” Well, there ain’t no such thing as ghost friends, and meenie’s insistence that she has one is nothing to be jealous of. I agree with Diogenes; statements like that, no matter how well intended, are part of the bullshit enabling going on in this thread. But you didactically take him to task instead of taking the reality of the situation into account. It’s obvious that you’re pissed at Diogenes and you’re letting it interfere with your logic function. Also, you “me too”'ed on begbert’s argument, which holds no water scientifically, also pretty sad. I’m sure you’re going to disagree and call me some more names, probably swear some more. This is exactly why I was not posting to this thread regularly-- people are worked up into a lather and any sort of disagreement sends them into a frenzy. I realize this is the Pit so your pobably feel like you need to throw the de rigeur “you’re a fucking moron” post into the mix. Doesn’t make you right, no matter how hard you flail around. begbert, post #221, 5 pages ago. I also said it before this little slapfight with LD started. Extraordinary claims, blah blah. The onus is on the extraordinary claimer to provide evidence. Without it, people are going to think you are crazy or lying. IF you provide it, in this case, you’d change the world radically. But no one ever has. Case rests. [/QUOTE] In other words, you have nothing, because I never said anything remotely similar to “there’s some scientific possibility there are ghosts”. Never. Not once, nor have I even implied such. I don’t believe in ghosts, nor do i think there is any possibility that they exist. Trying to distract everyone by saying I’m “frothing at the mouth” doesn’t change that. What really pisses me off is that you’re being intellectually dishonest, and you’re only doing so because you realized that you accused me of saying something I never did. Instead of apologizing, you come up with a bunch of convoluted crap that does nothing to back up your accusation. What I said to Dio about olivesmarch had nothing to do with my non-belief in ghosts, and you’d realize that if you weren’t speed reading the thread in an attempt to find some ammo against me. As it is, you failed anyway. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meenie7s-invisible-friend/457409/467 "2008-07-29T01:09:27Z")
[QUOTE=Rubystreak] And my answer is-- of course he can’t. And if you disagree with that, you need to prove it. You certainly can’t claim it’s true otherwise and expect any rational person to agree with you or not give you a :dubious: . [/QUOTE] Of course he can/could be theoretically demonstrated to be true, if he was anything like **meenie7** was describing him. If he was real, he could successfully carry out dice tests until the cows come home, on camera, in front of scientific panels, with consistency and repeatability and everything else science demands. Of course it has since turned out that he apparently can’t reliably pass dice tests. Bummer, dude - okay, out you go, and bring in the next claimant! ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meenie7s-invisible-friend/457409/468 "2008-07-29T01:10:51Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] It’s called empathy. It’s called not being a total dick. This has nothing to do with science or anything, it has to do with respect. [/QUOTE] _hugs you_ ---
**Author:** ![KGS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/90ced4/32.png) [@KGS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KGS)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meenie7s-invisible-friend/457409/469 "2008-07-29T01:12:17Z")
[QUOTE=Rubystreak] Has it occurred to you that there are people who agree with Diogenes and Der Trihs who do not find it worthwhile to wade in and engage in a fruitless arguement with the flagrant ignorance and lack of understanding of science displayed by your side of this argument? [/quote] Actually, I would put it the other way round. I think there are plenty of SDMB’ers who are, if not true believers, at least sympathetic and towards the so-called “woo” stuff. But once the RandiFanatics show up…(and now that the boards are back up, they are starting to trickle in)…they clear the room. They know how people like **lekatt** and others get treated around here. > [@](#): > > You may not like Diogenes’ presentation or Der Trih’s attitude on a personal level (which is apparent) Yeah, when someone like Diogenes spends SIX STRAIGHT DAYS belittling a person he doesn’t agree with, calling her “delusional” and even suggesting she might have a brain tumor, and claiming to have professional knowledge about mental illnesses but NOT volunteering his credentials or educational background in the field…yeah, it kinda gets my hackles up. It’s got nothing to do with who’s wrong and who’s right – it’s disgusting human behavior which goes far beyond the pale. > [@](#): > > If you make an extraordinary claim, like “ghosts are real,” and you want that claim to be received with anything but disbelief and outright dismissal, the onus is on **you** to prove it, not everyone else to disprove it. Fair enough. All I’m saying is that a little constructive criticism might be in order. Laughter and ridicule and accusations of trolling don’t help at all. (Well…maybe **lekatt** ’s an exception. He seems to thrive on this shit.) The motto of this board is “Fighting Ignorance”, not “Mock the Ignorant”. ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meenie7s-invisible-friend/457409/470 "2008-07-29T01:18:35Z")
[QUOTE=Labrador Deceiver] In other words, you have nothing, because I never said anything remotely similar to “there’s some scientific possibility there are ghosts”. Never. Not once, nor have I even implied such. I don’t believe in ghosts, nor do i think there is any possibility that they exist. Trying to distract everyone by saying I’m “frothing at the mouth” doesn’t change that. [/quote] You **are** frothing at the mouth. What I object to about your role in this thread is that your are scolding people, esp. Diogenes, for semantic bullshit. “Don’t use the word crazy! It’s mean and wrong!” “Don’t criticize olives for being jealous of meenie’s deluisions!” Whether or not you believe in ghosts is irrelevant. You are enabling in this thread. That’s my opinion and there’s plenty of evidence for it. > [@](#): > > What really pisses me off is that you’re being intellectually dishonest, and you’re only doing so because you realized that you accused me of saying something I never did. Wrong. I’ll say to you what you said to me earlier: go back and read what I said. I scoffed at the idea that there was some meaningful dogpiling in this thread. My category of “the dogpilers of Diogenes” (which includes you, you can’t deny it) were people who have displayed an ignorance of science AND those who have scolded Diogenes for his lack of tact while ignoring the pink elephant in the room, which is that ghosts are not fucking real no matter what meenie7 says, and Diogenes is not wrong or out of line for pointing it out in the most explicit terms. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meenie7s-invisible-friend/457409/471 "2008-07-29T01:22:47Z")
[QUOTE=KGS] Yeah, when someone like Diogenes spends SIX STRAIGHT DAYS belittling a person he doesn’t agree with, calling her “delusional” and even suggesting she might have a brain tumor, and claiming to have professional knowledge about mental illnesses but NOT volunteering his credentials or educational background in the field…yeah, it kinda gets my hackles up. It’s got nothing to do with who’s wrong and who’s right – it’s disgusting human behavior which goes far beyond the pale. [/QUOTE] Where do I even start with this bullshit? First, I haven’t been that aggressive towwards **meenie** herself and saying I’ve spent “6 days belittling her” is just dishonest. Secondly I have not claimed any special professional knowledge of mental illness other than that I know it’s not fun. I have worked professionally with people with schizophrenia in a direct care capacity. That doesn’t mean I can diagnose anything, it just means I know it’s not a benign condition and nothing to leave untreated. Thirdly, delusion or decpetion are the only options available to us and it’s not dickish to say so. You seem offended that I suggested a brain tumor was possible. Do you think it’s _not_ possible? Do you think it’s something a person with a history of hallucinations, blackouts and fainting spells should not get checked for. You are reading a different thread than the one I’m posting in. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meenie7s-invisible-friend/457409/472 "2008-07-29T01:29:58Z")
[QUOTE=Rubystreak] It’s mean and wrong!" “Don’t criticize olives for being jealous of meenie’s deluisions!” [/QUOTE] I never said he was being “mean and wrong”. I said he was full of shit for claiming that her words would be psychologically harmful to meenie, when his were even worse. > [@](#): > > Whether or not you believe in ghosts is irrelevant. You are enabling in this thread. That’s my opinion and there’s plenty of evidence for it. I was basically commenting on a hijack, not meenie’s belief in ghosts. I’m not enabling anything. > [@](#): > > Wrong. I’ll say to you what you said to me earlier: go back and read what I said. I scoffed at the idea that there was some meaningful dogpiling in this thread. My category of “the dogpilers of Diogenes” (which includes you, you can’t deny it) were people who have displayed an ignorance of science AND those who have scolded Diogenes for his lack of tact while ignoring the pink elephant in the room, which is that ghosts are not fucking real no matter what meenie7 says, and Diogenes is not wrong or out of line for pointing it out in the most explicit terms. Nope. You said that I was, and I quote: > [@](#): > > saying there’s some scientific possibility there are ghosts, that it hasn’t been disproven, or that Diogenes is a nasty bad man and leave meenie and her ghost alone! I told him to leave olivesmarch alone, not meenie. I never had a problem with what he was saying to meenie until he started arguing that other people were doing her more harm than he was from a psychological standpoint. In other words, I was saying that he had no leg to stand on from the POV of a psychologist, as opposed to the POV of a sceptic. I never even implied that he was wrong in saying that she didn’t have a ghost friend. Why people insist on putting words into my mouth is beyond me. Also, it’s bullshit to say that nobody is allowed to question anything Dio has said in this entire thread. You don’t get to wear the bulletproof vest forever just because some of your posts are on the side of truth. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meenie7s-invisible-friend/457409/473 "2008-07-29T01:48:54Z")
So, **Dio** , let me ask you this: Suppose for a second that **Meenie** is, in fact, someone who would benefit from psychological help. Is she more likely to be convinced of that by an approach of understanding tinged with skepticism or by an approach of basically shrieking at her and at anyone who doesn’t immediately dismiss her? Here’s how I see it: **90%** chance that **Meenie** is non-intentionally making it all up (ie, some form of delusion). In this case, it’s fascinating, and the best thing we can do (I’m speaking here as basically completely a layman) is to reach out to her and explain to her, through things such as the dice test (which, apparently, has surprised her and gotten her to think about things) why we think it’s so unlikely that **Marcus** actually has the type of separate existence that she believes he has. Hopefully it is self-evident to her that if **Marcus** does not, in fact, exist, then her relationship with him is something that is potentially worrisome, and medical help is probably not a terrible idea. **10% minus epsilon** chance (where epsilon is very small) chance that **Meenie** is just having us all on for some reason. But so what? If I spend my entire online time doing nothing but wondering whether the person on the other side of the screen is making it all up, well, I’ll have a lonely and unfulfilling time. I see no reason not to accept that **Meenie** is telling the truth _as she sees it_. And it’s not like **Meenie** can walk away saying “heheheh… I fooled a bunch of SDMB twits who think they are smart into believing I have a ghost friend… FACED”. Because all that she’s done is fool a bunch of us into believing that she’s deluded. Uhh, you got us. Zing. **Epsilon** chance that **Marcus** is a quasi-conscious entity with some amount of ability to act and perceive independently, whether or not he is in fact the “ghost” of a real person who died in 1818. While I find this possibility incredibly vanishingly remote, I also find it fascinating, and am happy to waste 10 minutes of my time discussing it in a polite fashion, and discussing ways **Meenie** might attempt to verify it, particularly as doing so might well be helpful to her in the vastly more likely case that she is in some way deluded. If anyone thinks I am the SLIGHTEST bit “woo” or a ghost believer or anything of that sort due to this position, well, that would be one of the most spectacularly incorrect conclusions anyone has ever drawn about me. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meenie7s-invisible-friend/457409/474 "2008-07-29T01:50:35Z")
[QUOTE=MaxTheVool] So, **Dio** , let me ask you this: Suppose for a second that **Meenie** is, in fact, someone who would benefit from psychological help. Is she more likely to be convinced of that by an approach of understanding tinged with skepticism or by an approach of basically shrieking at her and at anyone who doesn’t immediately dismiss her? Here’s how I see it: **90%** chance that **Meenie** is non-intentionally making it all up (ie, some form of delusion). In this case, it’s fascinating, and the best thing we can do (I’m speaking here as basically completely a layman) is to reach out to her and explain to her, through things such as the dice test (which, apparently, has surprised her and gotten her to think about things) why we think it’s so unlikely that **Marcus** actually has the type of separate existence that she believes he has. Hopefully it is self-evident to her that if **Marcus** does not, in fact, exist, then her relationship with him is something that is potentially worrisome, and medical help is probably not a terrible idea. **10% minus epsilon** chance (where epsilon is very small) chance that **Meenie** is just having us all on for some reason. But so what? If I spend my entire online time doing nothing but wondering whether the person on the other side of the screen is making it all up, well, I’ll have a lonely and unfulfilling time. I see no reason not to accept that **Meenie** is telling the truth _as she sees it_. And it’s not like **Meenie** can walk away saying “heheheh… I fooled a bunch of SDMB twits who think they are smart into believing I have a ghost friend… FACED”. Because all that she’s done is fool a bunch of us into believing that she’s deluded. Uhh, you got us. Zing. **Epsilon** chance that **Marcus** is a quasi-conscious entity with some amount of ability to act and perceive independently, whether or not he is in fact the “ghost” of a real person who died in 1818. While I find this possibility incredibly vanishingly remote, I also find it fascinating, and am happy to waste 10 minutes of my time discussing it in a polite fashion, and discussing ways **Meenie** might attempt to verify it, particularly as doing so might well be helpful to her in the vastly more likely case that she is in some way deluded. If anyone thinks I am the SLIGHTEST bit “woo” or a ghost believer or anything of that sort due to this position, well, that would be one of the most spectacularly incorrect conclusions anyone has ever drawn about me. [/QUOTE] When will you stop enabling the believers? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meenie7s-invisible-friend/457409/475 "2008-07-29T02:11:23Z")
Is it wrong to be totally unconcerned about meenie’s mental health? I mean, it’d be kinda cool if she had a tumour whose rapid growth made her head swell up to the size of a basketball. I mean, I pray for her speedy recovery, blah-blah-blah lip-service lip-service, but basketball-head… cool. ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meenie7s-invisible-friend/457409/476 "2008-07-29T02:23:04Z")
[QUOTE=Labrador Deceiver] I never said he was being “mean and wrong”. I said he was full of shit for claiming that her words would be psychologically harmful to meenie, when his were even worse. [/quote] Whereas I disagree with you. There has been plenty of pseudoscientific rationalization, strawman attacks on the OP, subject changing, and indulgence of an obviously fallacious premise in this thread that I think would not help meenie get help if she needs it. And frankly, the way you attack people who disagree with you, there’s no way you give much of a shit about who’s psychologically hurting whom here. Probably Diogenes doesn’t either and you’re just sniping at each other out of sheer bitchiness on both sides, no? > [@](#): > > I told him to leave olivesmarch alone, not meenie. Olives agreed that Dio was right and not out of line. Also, she’s a big girl. You just want to take shots at Diogenes. OK, that’s cool, but let’s not be disingenuous about motives. > [@](#): > > I never had a problem with what he was saying to meenie until he started arguing that other people were doing her more harm than he was from a psychological standpoint. I think that he is right. The bullshit magical thinking promulgated in this thread is harmful if meenie really is ill. Being cruel to her is also not helpful, that I agree with, and I haven’t been, if you notice. But you’re doing no favors by dogpiling on the messenger either. > [@](#): > > Also, it’s bullshit to say that nobody is allowed to question anything Dio has said in this entire thread. You don’t get to wear the bulletproof vest forever just because some of your posts are on the side of truth. Question away, but you have put as many words into his mouth as anyone has into yours. I guess, unlike Maxthe Vool, I don’t think there is Epsilon chance that she’s actually talking to a ghost, so I have to stick with Diogenes’ two choices, with a slight modification: something’s wrong with her OR she’s lying. I’m surprised to hear that there’s any debate about this, or arguing over the semantics of how it’s addressed on a message board. No one here has altruistic motives. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meenie7s-invisible-friend/457409/477 "2008-07-29T02:34:14Z")
[QUOTE=MaxTheVool] So, **Dio** , let me ask you this: Suppose for a second that **Meenie** is, in fact, someone who would benefit from psychological help. Is she more likely to be convinced of that by an approach of understanding tinged with skepticism or by an approach of basically shrieking at her and at anyone who doesn’t immediately dismiss her? [/quote] I think you’re right, but if you’ll look at everything I’ve said directly to **meenie** , I don’t think you’l find any shrieking or belittling. As I’ve already said, my irritation was and still is more directed at people for humoring her along than at **meenie** herself. If she’s making it up, they’re feeding a troll. If she’s not making it up, they’re essentially asking a person with neurological issue to perform for them and entertain them. I think one point that has been made that is well taken by me is the argument that something like a dice test might get her to at least examine her claims herself. I have doubts that she’s been honest about that test, though. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meenie7s-invisible-friend/457409/478 "2008-07-29T02:45:55Z")
[QUOTE=Rubystreak] Olives agreed that Dio was right and not out of line. Also, she’s a big girl. You just want to take shots at Diogenes. OK, that’s cool, but let’s not be disingenuous about motives. [/QUOTE] I agree he’s right and not out of line with regard to the scientific explanation of why ghosts don’t exist and his perfect rationality in saying that they do not. I think he was out of line to post this Pit Thread in the first place, especially given the completely attacking nature of the OP, and he was out of line to attack me as ignorant and asinine for a light-hearted aside when he said things far more hurtful. It doesn’t matter whether he said them TO her directly, she can damn well read the thread and see them. I’ve noticed that a lot around here, BTW, and it doesn’t fly. Talking about someone as if they are not there does not mean they are not there. It doesn’t matter whether he said, ‘‘I think **meenie’s** full of shit’’ or ‘‘ **meenie** , you are full of shit’’ – either way he is attacking her. And when am I ever going to object to someone chiming in to defend me? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meenie7s-invisible-friend/457409/479 "2008-07-29T02:46:30Z")
[QUOTE=Rubystreak] Whereas I disagree with you. There has been plenty of pseudoscientific rationalization, strawman attacks on the OP, subject changing, and indulgence of an obviously fallacious premise in this thread that I think would not help meenie get help if she needs it. And frankly, the way you attack people who disagree with you, [/QUOTE] I attack people who put words into my mouth, not people who disagree with me. > [@](#): > > there’s no way you give much of a shit about who’s psychologically hurting whom here. Probably Diogenes doesn’t either and you’re just sniping at each other out of sheer bitchiness on both sides, no? I thought I made it abundantly clear in my last post that I absolutely do not care one whit. I care when other people pretend to, then try to attack others who don’t deserve it. I think it’s a shitty thing to do in the name of a squabble, especially when they don’t know anything about the subject matter at hand (in this case, psychology). > [@](#): > > Olives agreed that Dio was right and not out of line. That was about a totally different matter. > [@](#): > > Also, she’s a big girl. And Dio is a big boy. > [@](#): > > You just want to take shots at Diogenes. OK, that’s cool, but let’s not be disingenuous about motives. Not particularly. Maybe a little, but I often like Dio’s habit of crashing a thread that probably deserves it. I did in this case, up until he switched from “Crazy Bitch!!” to “Let’s all do what’s best for the mentally ill.” > [@](#): > > I think that he is right. The bullshit magical thinking promulgated in this thread is harmful if meenie really is ill. Being cruel to her is also not helpful, that I agree with, and I haven’t been, if you notice. But you’re doing no favors by dogpiling on the messenger either. Who do you think I’m trying to bestow with favors? Maybe Olivesmarch4th. > [@](#): > > Question away, but you have put as many words into his mouth as anyone has into yours. Where? > [@](#): > > I guess, unlike Maxthe Vool, I don’t think there is Epsilon chance that she’s actually talking to a ghost, so I have to stick with Diogenes’ two choices, with a slight modification: something’s wrong with her OR she’s lying. I’m surprised to hear that there’s any debate about this, or arguing over the semantics of how it’s addressed on a message board. No one here has altruistic motives. I don’t disagree with the fact that she’s either lying or mistaken. I don’t, however, think that gives people carte blanche to say anything they want in a thread & not be called on it, even if it is a nitpick. Cheers. ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2008, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meenie7s-invisible-friend/457409/480 "2008-07-29T02:55:48Z")
[QUOTE=Labrador Deceiver] I don’t disagree with the fact that she’s either lying or mistaken. I don’t, however, think that gives people carte blanche to say anything they want in a thread & not be called on it, even if it is a nitpick. [/QUOTE] Then you are really needed in so many Pit threads where people say much worse things to each other without this level of outcry, and without this many pages of dickering and sniping back and forth. But I don’t see you everywhere, fighting the injustice. And honestly, I don’t think anything that’s been said to meenie has been terrifically nasty, beyond the pale, and worthy of a dogpile. “You’re either crazy or lying” is a bit simplistic, blunt, and definitely not nice or diplomatic, but about sums it up. I’ve seen much worse said here with less justification. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meenie7s-invisible-friend/457409.md?page=23) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/meenie7s-invisible-friend/457409.md?page=25)