# Mega Cruise Ships: Tragedies Waiting To Happen? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 10, 2011, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mega-cruise-ships-tragedies-waiting-to-happen/570937 "2011-02-10T20:12:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2012, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mega-cruise-ships-tragedies-waiting-to-happen/570937/181 "2012-01-20T18:35:53Z")
According to the Times cruise ship companies are liable only if the management screwed up, which is why they are hanging this cretin out to dry. In normal cases workers are seen to be acting for the company. Now, the article goes on to say that it might be problematic to consider the captain as just a guy. Having some busboy set fire to the ship is another matter. They also talked about the contract all cruise passengers sign, which basically says “not my fault - tough” in response to any calamity. A woman in my wife’s writing group is closely related to the two missing Americans. She basically expect to be going to Minnesota for the funeral soon. If the Italian government wants to save money on a trial, they can turn this clown over to survivors, heirs, and Carnival stockholders. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2012, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mega-cruise-ships-tragedies-waiting-to-happen/570937/182 "2012-01-20T18:37:40Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Was the ship’s band playing “Nearer My God To Thee”? > It just occurred to me: a remake of “Titanic” (update to the Costa Line) would be interesting. I think they were playing “The Whole World Turned Upside Down.” Anyone seen anything about the state of Costa bookings? I sure as hell would have my doubts about a line having that turkey as a captain. ---
**Author:** ![psychobunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/54ee81/32.png) [@psychobunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychobunny)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2012, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mega-cruise-ships-tragedies-waiting-to-happen/570937/183 "2012-01-21T01:37:45Z")
Actually, the band was playing _My Heart Will Go On_. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2012, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mega-cruise-ships-tragedies-waiting-to-happen/570937/184 "2012-01-21T19:30:31Z")
> [@RadicalPi](#): > > Given that the captain is pretty much where the buck stops on a ship, I’m guessing they don’t give these jobs to just anybody. > > For example, the job requirements for the captain: > > Captain (responsible for the entire operation of the vessel). Captain’s licenses and all applicable certifications by a recognized maritime government body required. Extensive experience with minimum five to eight years in subordinate positions on board ships and solid experience in all navigational electronic and computerized equipment required. Diploma from an accredited maritime training school or facility and fluent English Language skills required. And there’s something else. Being legally allowed to captain a ship does not mean that you will get a job doing it. My husband captained his first cargo ship for a small Danish-flagged company when he was not even 30. Once he got a job with his current employer (also Danish and the biggest shipping company in the world) he had to return to being a second mate as he did not have the required years of experience for them to give him that kind of responsibility. With cruises and tankers it is usually even more strict. It is not the same being the master of a ship with a crew of less than 20, all trained to get themselves out of harm’s way than to take charge of a large group of “civilians” some of which are not able-bodied or are children. By the time a navigator makes it to captain of a cruise or tanker he is usually less than two decades from retirement age. > [@Princhester](#): > > He took the ship on a route 5km different to last time, intending to pass by Giglo. > > That isn’t actually the same as “basically straight into” an island. It’s a subtle distinction, I know. I find it very hard to believe that a master in today’s ships has the freedom to change the agreed-upon course without previous authorization. Specially not a cruise ship. In the old days they were really masters, now they are more like “glorified bus drivers” (in the words of another captain I know). Of course it depends on the owner’s policy. When I was in the business my employer (and my husband’s at the time) allowed the first mate to design the ship’s loading plan, whereas in his new company not even the captain decides that on his own. Another point against Captain Wrongway is that he was not shanghaied into that position. When you decide to do that job you know the huge responsibility it is. FWIW my husband says that despite the significant difference in pay he would not consider captaining a cruise or a tanker. Schettino would have almost certainly never made the news if he were sailing a barge up some river somewhere instead. Or who knows… ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2012, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mega-cruise-ships-tragedies-waiting-to-happen/570937/185 "2012-01-21T19:34:22Z")
And are Scandinavians out there having a flashback of SS Martha too? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2012, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mega-cruise-ships-tragedies-waiting-to-happen/570937/186 "2012-01-21T19:46:08Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > According to the Times cruise ship companies are liable only if the management screwed up, which is why they are hanging this cretin out to dry. In normal cases workers are seen to be acting for the company. Now, the article goes on to say that it might be problematic to consider the captain as just a guy. Having some busboy set fire to the ship is another matter. > > They also talked about the contract all cruise passengers sign, which basically says “not my fault - tough” in response to any calamity. The fact that passengers sign a waiver does not mean liability does not exist. Various statutes limit or void contractual liability caps (such as [46 USC 30509](http://openjurist.org/title-46/us-code/section-30509/provisions-limiting-liability-for-personal-injury-or-death)). Italian law most likely contains some similar provisions. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2012, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mega-cruise-ships-tragedies-waiting-to-happen/570937/187 "2012-01-21T21:00:55Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > The fact that passengers sign a waiver does not mean liability does not exist. Various statutes limit or void contractual liability caps (such as [46 USC 30509](http://openjurist.org/title-46/us-code/section-30509/provisions-limiting-liability-for-personal-injury-or-death)). > > Italian law most likely contains some similar provisions. The article said that the provisions have been upheld by the courts several times. ---
**Author:** ![Gagundathar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a183cd/32.png) [@Gagundathar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gagundathar)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2012, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mega-cruise-ships-tragedies-waiting-to-happen/570937/188 "2012-01-21T21:45:23Z")
As I have said in another thread elsewhere, the officers of this ship are culpable in this tragedy. The master of the ship miscalculated his set course so that his ship hit a HUGE boulder that lodged itself in his hull. This happened while he was having dinner and wine with a passenger. Instead of calling for abandon ship, he turned the ship around and (apparently) deliberately grounded it on a sand bar and thereby saved the ship and the folks onboard. But, the evacuation was apparently ‘Titanic’ level chaotic with really bad coordination from the crew (along with the fact that the passengers hadn’t been given any evacuation training ahead of time) and that led to a really difficult time for a lot of people. According to reports, children were taken from their fathers. “Women and children, first”. And then those dorks jump ship and row on shore. It is like a freaking movie. Don’t tell me there aren’t phones ringing off the hooks in Hollywood right now. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2012, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mega-cruise-ships-tragedies-waiting-to-happen/570937/189 "2012-01-21T23:03:30Z")
> [@Gagundathar](#): > > Don’t tell me there aren’t phones ringing off the hooks in Hollywood right now. What is Mel Brooks up to these days? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2012, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mega-cruise-ships-tragedies-waiting-to-happen/570937/190 "2012-01-21T23:44:45Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > The article said that the provisions have been upheld by the courts several times. What article? ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2012, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mega-cruise-ships-tragedies-waiting-to-happen/570937/191 "2012-01-22T04:19:56Z")
> [@Gagundathar](#): > > This happened while he was having dinner and wine with a passenger. I believe he’s stated that he intended to pass close to the island - as he’d done during previous voyages - but ordered the turn too late. That implies he was on the bridge at the critical time - dinner+wine must have been earlier (or, as some accounts suggest, later). ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2012, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mega-cruise-ships-tragedies-waiting-to-happen/570937/192 "2012-01-22T05:57:51Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > What article? The Times article I was quoting from, from Thursday I think. Sorry, I read the dead tree version. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mega-cruise-ships-tragedies-waiting-to-happen/570937/193 "2012-01-24T10:27:22Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > According to the Times cruise ship companies are liable only if the management screwed up, which is why they are hanging this cretin out to dry. This is complete horseshit in any jurisdiction in which I’ve practiced, and I practice very largely in the field of shipowner liability. And for those who are quite sure in their views about Schettino, I’ll link to this [other post of mine](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14700026&postcount=147), in another thread. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mega-cruise-ships-tragedies-waiting-to-happen/570937/194 "2012-01-24T13:05:15Z")
> [@Gagundathar](#): > > As I have said in another thread elsewhere, the officers of this ship are culpable in this tragedy. > The master of the ship miscalculated his set course so that his ship hit a HUGE boulder that lodged itself in his hull. This happened while he was having dinner and wine with a passenger. > Instead of calling for abandon ship, he turned the ship around and (apparently) deliberately grounded it on a sand bar and thereby saved the ship and the folks onboard. > But, the evacuation was apparently ‘Titanic’ level chaotic with really bad coordination from the crew (along with the fact that the passengers hadn’t been given any evacuation training ahead of time) and that led to a really difficult time for a lot of people. According to reports, children were taken from their fathers. “Women and children, first”. > > And then those dorks jump ship and row on shore. > > It is like a freaking movie. > > Don’t tell me there aren’t phones ringing off the hooks in Hollywood right now. So this Capt. Schettino was an unlikely hero? No Titanic-esque flooding compartments, water rising in the hold, water gushing down the grand staircase. And no Jack Dawson and Rose whatshername parting on the lifeboat deck. If the ship hadn’t been rn aground, would the death toll been immense? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mega-cruise-ships-tragedies-waiting-to-happen/570937/195 "2012-01-24T14:33:48Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > This is complete horseshit in any jurisdiction in which I’ve practiced, and I practice very largely in the field of shipowner liability. The Times article may have been referencing decisions regarding liability of cruise operators to _employees_. As employers, under US law they’d enjoy workers’ compensation immunity. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mega-cruise-ships-tragedies-waiting-to-happen/570937/196 "2012-01-24T18:12:22Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > This is complete horseshit in any jurisdiction in which I’ve practiced, and I practice very largely in the field of shipowner liability. > > And for those who are quite sure in their views about Schettino, I’ll link to this [other post of mine](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14700026&postcount=147), in another thread. Do you know of cases where passengers were able to break the terms of their passage agreement with the cruise line? That is what I am discussing here. Italy may sue Costa for damage to the rock, but that is not at issue since neither the rock nor Italy signed an agreement. And, as I said, the people quoted say it is far from clear that the Captain would not be held as a representative of the company, so that his failings are the failings of the company. In the non-maritime world an employee who promises something promises it for the company even if not explicitly authorized to do so. I’ve been taught to be very careful about this. If you have United States case law saying that these contracts can be broken, I’d be very happy. ---
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mega-cruise-ships-tragedies-waiting-to-happen/570937/197 "2012-01-24T20:29:28Z")
They did in fact have a Rose on board; one Rose Metcalf, 23, employed as a dancer. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2012, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mega-cruise-ships-tragedies-waiting-to-happen/570937/198 "2012-01-25T03:53:45Z")
\*\*Voyager \*\*your post wasn’t very clear. Are you saying the passenger contracts say that the owners are only responsible if their shore management, but not the ship’s staff, stuff up? You seemed to be implying the Times was suggesting some wider principle. And I’m not sure how much US case law is going to have to do with it. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2012, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mega-cruise-ships-tragedies-waiting-to-happen/570937/199 "2012-01-25T07:01:27Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > \*\*Voyager \*\*your post wasn’t very clear. Are you saying the passenger contracts say that the owners are only responsible if their shore management, but not the ship’s staff, stuff up? You seemed to be implying the Times was suggesting some wider principle. > > And I’m not sure how much US case law is going to have to do with it. Shore staff wasn’t mentioned - cruise line management as a corporation was. Oh, and the Times article wasn’t talking about compensation for this incident, but the general terms of contracts under US law. Two Americans are still missing, and it would be interesting to see which law it falls under. I would assume the Europeans are not covered by US law. And under US law, the company would not have liability for damage caused by a waiter. Like I said, the expert was unsure about the captain. Is there another case of a captain being as directly responsible for a disaster as this one? I know that European law on air travel is more liberal in compensating passengers who are delayed than US law, but I don’t know about cruise contracts. When I pick up my NCL tickets I’m going to have to read the fine print. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2012, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mega-cruise-ships-tragedies-waiting-to-happen/570937/200 "2012-01-25T07:42:15Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > And under US law, the company would not have liability for damage caused by a waiter. In what context and why? Under a passenger contract? I’m not getting a coherent picture of what you are saying here. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mega-cruise-ships-tragedies-waiting-to-happen/570937.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mega-cruise-ships-tragedies-waiting-to-happen/570937.md?page=11)