# Mega Cruise Ships: Tragedies Waiting To Happen? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 10, 2011, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mega-cruise-ships-tragedies-waiting-to-happen/570937 "2011-02-10T20:12:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mega-cruise-ships-tragedies-waiting-to-happen/570937/101 "2012-01-18T00:28:52Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > Where are you getting the lack of training of the crew from? I mean, unless you think that most of the thousands of passengers got off safely by themselves? I suppose they might have lowered the lifeboats on their own, and then lowered ladders when the angles didn’t work out, with no training. Yeah. The blame is with the bridge crew who got the ship in that position in the first place. Where I’m getting it from is interviews with passengers reported in the Times. None of the crew seemed to know where any of the passengers should go. Some of the crew piloting the lifeboats drove them in circles until in one case, some passengers took over steering. Perhaps the crew did get trained but they are such idiots it didn’t stick. However, on cruises I’ve been on the crew did drills not involving passengers, so their knowledge should be frequently refreshed. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mega-cruise-ships-tragedies-waiting-to-happen/570937/102 "2012-01-18T00:31:39Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > And another thing: the master says he hit an uncharted rock. The “black box” is to hand. The Italian government knows to within a GPS accuracy (ie a few metres) what course the ship took. They also have a copy of relevant charts handy. Anyone seen any indications that the Italians are reluctant to release news stories that would make the master look bad? No, me neither. Anyone seen any story pointing out that actually the rock the vessel hit was charted? No? Me neither. > > Sounds like the ship hit an uncharted rock. Who’s going to look bad about that, eh? Well, given that the very earliest stories noted tha the ship was on a pre-programmed route that required a manual override to depart and that the cruise company has been acknowledging human error from the very first, without any involvement by the Italian government, I suspect that your speculation is going to go nowhere. If there was an uncharted rock, the cruise company should be all over that information to reduce the possibility of lawsuit claims, (counterbalanced by its own claims against the Italian maritime authorities for bad charts). You seem to be reaching pretty far, here. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mega-cruise-ships-tragedies-waiting-to-happen/570937/103 "2012-01-18T00:32:54Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > Sounds like the ship hit an uncharted rock. Who’s going to look bad about that, eh? The idiot captain who disregarded standard safe-apporach distance guidelines designed to minimize the risk of hitting uncharted rocks. What do I win? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mega-cruise-ships-tragedies-waiting-to-happen/570937/104 "2012-01-18T00:38:14Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > And another thing: the master says he hit an uncharted rock. The “black box” is to hand. The Italian government knows to within a GPS accuracy (ie a few metres) what course the ship took. They also have a copy of relevant charts handy. Anyone seen any indications that the Italians are reluctant to release news stories that would make the master look bad? No, me neither. Anyone seen any story pointing out that actually the rock the vessel hit was charted? No? Me neither. > > Sounds like the ship hit an uncharted rock. Who’s going to look bad about that, eh? If the ship was away from its intended course, whether the rock was charted or not does not matter. Typically you board a pilot when approaching land, even familiar ports. I haven’t heard anything about any pilot on board. (Which is not surprising given that the close approach was probably not planned.) Pilots know where rocks are. Captains can’t be expected to, which is why they stick to approved channels. BTW, I was on a cruise ship which got stuck in the Orinoco River. A pilot was on board, but this was the first trip of the year and so the bottom had shifted. Things do happen, I think able captains try to be as safe as possible. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mega-cruise-ships-tragedies-waiting-to-happen/570937/105 "2012-01-18T00:51:22Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Princhester, it is all very well to want to be fair to all parties and presume innocence until guilt is proven, but attacking de Falco is silly. Schettino abandoned his ship ahead of the passengers. If he needed an officer in life boats to coordinate things, then he should have sent the first officer or another subordinate. As to it being dark, [_duh_], that is what flashlights are for and there should have been a lot more of them, (and more powerful ones), aboard a liner than in the lifeboats. > > de Falco shows up to attempt to rescue 4,000 people and finds the ship’s captain paddling around in the water and not on the ship. He has a right to be angry and if his words are less than temperate, I think he is pretty well justified in that. > As to Schettino being “in shock,” if he was so susceptible to being in shock, he had no business being the captain of a ship carrying 4,000 people. It is not as though the ship was captured by aliens from space. It had a ruptured hull. He should have been training for that eventuality from his first day as a cadet, years ago. Neither you nor I know what was going on. You don’t know what the master’s plan was nor why he was doing what he was doing. All you have is snippets being fed to you, including by someone so intemperate as to record himself threatening to make someone look bad. It is entirely possible that the master had, for rational (even if ultimately incorrect) reasons decided that he was best off now assisting and controlling on water rather than on board. Do you know that a mistaken crewmember hadn’t told him that the bow was now clear and everyone was off? I don’t. You can’t train for shock. Few people know how they will behave in a real emergency. It seems to me the master did very well for many hours. I’ve been involved in the aftermath of maritime casualties for about 22 years. I don’t know what happened in this instance. The master could have been an incompetent cowardly fool. I don’t know. What I do know is that immediately after incidents like this nobody has the full picture, and that it is SOP to turn the master into a villain, and that is what is going on here. There will be a dry investigation report published a few months or years in the future about what happened. I’ll wait for it to come out before I draw conclusions. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mega-cruise-ships-tragedies-waiting-to-happen/570937/106 "2012-01-18T00:52:25Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > The idiot captain who disregarded standard safe-apporach distance guidelines designed to minimize the risk of hitting uncharted rocks. Which guidelines are those? ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mega-cruise-ships-tragedies-waiting-to-happen/570937/107 "2012-01-18T00:52:46Z")
You sure about all of that? I thought I read that the captain left the ship after the vast majority of the passengers had been evacuated. I could very well be wrong. (Sorry, this was a response to tomndeb’s post on page 2. I’m a little behind, it seems.) ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mega-cruise-ships-tragedies-waiting-to-happen/570937/108 "2012-01-18T01:06:10Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > If the ship was away from its intended course, whether the rock was charted or not does not matter. Typically you board a pilot when approaching land, even familiar ports. I haven’t heard anything about any pilot on board. (Which is not surprising given that the close approach was probably not planned.) Pilots know where rocks are. Captains can’t be expected to, which is why they stick to approved channels. Was it away from its intended course? The rest of your post is know nothing crap. You take pilots typically going into harbours, where it is compulsory, but very seldom otherwise. Masters don’t “stick to approved channels” they take vessels all over the world using charts to know where they can and can’t go. There are common routes but outside certain regulated places channels aren’t “approved”. It sounds to me like the master engaged in what is increasingly sounding like a common practice of close “fly bys” of islands and he has been somewhat incautious. I’m withholding judgment on whether that is right but it sounds like it. And **tomndebb** your post about the uncharted rock issue is off the mark. The owners have said they don’t have access to the black box because it has been confiscated. They don’t know precisely where the vessel went. The Italian government does, yet they haven’t said there is a charted rock. Doesn’t add up to me. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mega-cruise-ships-tragedies-waiting-to-happen/570937/109 "2012-01-18T01:11:18Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > Do you know that a mistaken crewmember hadn’t told him that the bow was now clear and everyone was off? I don’t. Maybe the ghost of Criswell (“Can you prove that it _didn’t_ happen?”) told him, for all I know. > [@Princhester](#): > > Which guidelines are those? The ones in the standard navigation protocols the captain deliberately overrode. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mega-cruise-ships-tragedies-waiting-to-happen/570937/110 "2012-01-18T01:24:09Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > And **tomndebb** your post about the uncharted rock issue is off the mark. The owners have said they don’t have access to the black box because it has been confiscated. They don’t know precisely where the vessel went. The Italian government does, yet they haven’t said there is a charted rock. Doesn’t add up to me. So, in your opinion, the company is quite willing to suffer the loss of a multi-million dollar ship and open itself to lawsuits over the behavior of its employee instead of waiting for further evidence simply because they enjoy the opprobrium? If they had no information supporting the “off course” idea, they would have been far better to wait for the actual information–unless, of course, they already have enough information and they are trying to get ahead of the blame game, (which would appear much more likely to me). ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mega-cruise-ships-tragedies-waiting-to-happen/570937/111 "2012-01-18T01:39:13Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > The ones in the standard navigation protocols the captain deliberately overrode. Which ones? I don’t know what protocols you are talking about. Obviously, you wouldn’t post unless you did, so please, fill me in: exactly which protocols? > [@tomndebb](#): > > So, in your opinion, the company is quite willing to suffer the loss of a multi-million dollar ship and open itself to lawsuits over the behavior of its employee instead of waiting for further evidence simply because they enjoy the opprobrium? If they had no information supporting the “off course” idea, they would have been far better to wait for the actual information–unless, of course, they already have enough information and they are trying to get ahead of the blame game, (which would appear much more likely to me). You are assuming incompatibilities that don’t exist. It may well be the case both that the master took the vessel on a fly by closer to the island than the company would (at least officially) approve _and_ that it hit an uncharted rock. And if they have 'fessed up early to the “off course” idea it’s because they knew that was going to come out anyway, and that’s what PR people tell you to do. Insurers will cover the lawsuits. Why do you think the Italians haven’t pointed out that the rock is charted? I’m curious. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mega-cruise-ships-tragedies-waiting-to-happen/570937/112 "2012-01-18T01:50:55Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > It sounds to me like the master engaged in what is increasingly sounding like a common practice of close “fly bys” of islands and he has been somewhat incautious. I’m withholding judgment on whether that is right but it sounds like it. Somewhat incautious? Somewhat? Ya, I guess, in the same way that the master is going to get a “little bit” of jail time. ETA: Is taking a major ship off course just fine and dandy? No problems could possibly be forseen with taking a ship with a draft of ?? off course near islands with rocky, pointy bits sticking out of them? ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mega-cruise-ships-tragedies-waiting-to-happen/570937/113 "2012-01-18T02:08:59Z")
What do you mean by “taking off course”? I’ve read a few stories but I don’t think I’ve got a clear picture yet as to what the master’s planned course was and whether he was off it. And if he was off it I don’t know the reason. Ships go close to things all the time. ---
**Author:** ![robinson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/848f3c/32.png) [@robinson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robinson)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mega-cruise-ships-tragedies-waiting-to-happen/570937/114 "2012-01-18T03:59:37Z")
I understand that the First Officer (second in command) evacuated with the captain. ---
**Author:** ![robinson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/848f3c/32.png) [@robinson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robinson)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mega-cruise-ships-tragedies-waiting-to-happen/570937/115 "2012-01-18T04:03:54Z")
I still have a soft spot in my heart for Italian police that dismantled several terrorist gangs in the 1980s while operating within the constraints of civil society. We should be so lucky. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mega-cruise-ships-tragedies-waiting-to-happen/570937/116 "2012-01-18T04:06:20Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > What do you mean by “taking off course”? I’ve read a few stories but I don’t think I’ve got a clear picture yet as to what the master’s planned course was and whether he was off it. And if he was off it I don’t know the reason. > > Ships go close to things all the time. I realize that we really should not come to any conclusions or even discuss the matter until a court of law had rendered a verdict, and all appeals are concluded, and we witness the heat death of the universe, but bear with me and my nutty speculations for a moment… [From this news article](http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/captain-of-costa-concordia-refused-orders-to-reboard/article2306076/) > [@](#): > > The Costa Concordia hit the rocks off the small Tuscan island of Giglio at 9:42 p.m. Friday, after the ship apparently deviated from its normal course. It hit the granite rocks close to the island’s outer flank and keeled over. Several reports said that Capt. Schettino went unusually close to Giglio to “salute” the island home of his head waiter. Yes, it’s not a notarized court-ordered sworn statement, but it does have the ring of truth about it. What do you make of the recordings that indicate that the Italian coast guard captain Captain Gregorio de Falco ordered Schettino back on board the ship to assist with the evacuation, and Schettino came up with a string of lame excuses as to why he abandoned his ship with passengers on board? Here’s a [Translation of the transcript](http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/transcript-of-argument-between-italian-coast-guard-and-cruise-ship-captain/article2306077/) (Again, sorry it is not a signed, notarized, sworn statement) My favorite lines? > [@](#): > > Schettino: “How many bodies are there?” > > De Falco: “I don’t know. I have heard of one. You are the one who has to tell me how many there are. Christ.” > > Schettino: “But do you realize it is dark and here we can’t see anything…” > > De Falco: “And so what? You want go home, Schettino? It is dark and you want to go home? Get on that prow of the boat using the pilot ladder and tell me what can be done, how many people there are and what their needs are. Now!” ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mega-cruise-ships-tragedies-waiting-to-happen/570937/117 "2012-01-18T04:09:28Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > You are assuming incompatibilities that don’t exist. It may well be the case both that the master took the vessel on a fly by closer to the island than the company would (at least officially) approve _and_ that it hit an uncharted rock. And if they have 'fessed up early to the “off course” idea it’s because they knew that was going to come out anyway, and that’s what PR people tell you to do. Insurers will cover the lawsuits. If the ship was off course, it is immaterial whether the rock was charted and there is still no reason for the company to admit anything before they have evidence of it. That they have already acknowledged that the captain was off course indicates that they have knowledge–otherwise they open themselves to further lawsuits for libel from the captain. > [@Princhester](#): > > Why do you think the Italians haven’t pointed out that the rock is charted? I’m curious. I suspect that the Italians are too busy looking for bodies, trying to arrange for fuel oil to be extracted, and making sure that the captain does not high-tail it to some country that lacks an extradition treaty with Italy to spend any effort determining which rock the ship hit in the dark when they don’t even know where the ship was, since it was off course. You are really reaching. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mega-cruise-ships-tragedies-waiting-to-happen/570937/118 "2012-01-18T04:28:22Z")
From the BBC: > [@The BBC](#): > > The shipping newspaper Lloyd’s List said it had been able to trace the course of the Concordia though information from satellites. > > The paper issued a graphic comparing Friday’s sailing with an earlier sailing by the liner, suggesting that Friday’s route had deviated far from its usual course. Click the link for the map: [Costa Concordia cruise ship captain 'went off course' - BBC News](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16576979) The article also states that Schettino maintains that he and his crew were the last to leave the ship, contrary to accusations by prosecutors. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mega-cruise-ships-tragedies-waiting-to-happen/570937/119 "2012-01-18T04:31:39Z")
So is Schettino denying that the following conversation that was recorded did not take place? > [@](#): > > De Falco: “No, please. You now get up and go on board. They are telling me that on board there are still …” > > Schettino: “I am here with the rescue boats, I am here, I am not going anywhere, I am here …” > > De Falco: “What are you doing, commander?” > > Schettino: “I am here to co-ordinate the rescue …” > > De Falco: “What are you co-ordinating there? Go on board! Co-ordinate the rescue from aboard the ship. Are you refusing?” ---
**Author:** ![robinson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/848f3c/32.png) [@robinson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robinson)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mega-cruise-ships-tragedies-waiting-to-happen/570937/120 "2012-01-18T04:32:04Z")
The BBC posted a map from Lloyds showing the track of the previous trip superimposed on this trip. The vessel was way off the previous course and, according to the captain, about 300m from shore. The position of the gash in the hull is consistent with the vessel being in a starboard turn (away from the shore) when it hit. Subsequent to the crash, the vessel executed a 180 degree turn to put the starboard side along the rocks just north of the ferry terminal. Compare BBC pix and Google Earth. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mega-cruise-ships-tragedies-waiting-to-happen/570937.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mega-cruise-ships-tragedies-waiting-to-happen/570937.md?page=7)