# Mega Cruise Ships: Tragedies Waiting To Happen? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 10, 2011, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mega-cruise-ships-tragedies-waiting-to-happen/570937 "2011-02-10T20:12:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mega-cruise-ships-tragedies-waiting-to-happen/570937/141 "2012-01-18T07:11:09Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > If I had the GPS positions and the relevant chart this exercise would take me minutes. > > I am honestly, seriously struggling to understand what it is that you think is so hard about this. If you can give me specific answers as to why you think any of what I’ve just outlined isn’t possible, let me know and maybe I can understand or explain some more. You are assuming that there is only the one rock that the captain did not know about, rather than several that he got lucky to miss. And while I am sure that GPS units are really wonderful, they only record the location of the box, itself, not the location of the entire 950’ long, 124’ wide, 24’ deep ship, so there could be multiple rocks that he just missed. Discovering all of them might be easy enough, but identifying the particular one would be more difficult. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mega-cruise-ships-tragedies-waiting-to-happen/570937/142 "2012-01-18T07:17:42Z")
That repeated dull thudding sound is my head on my desk. I give up. Can anyone else explain it to **tomndebb**? Personally, I would be satisfied with knowing whether there are any identified hazards or shallows on the taken course line or not. And yes, ships are wider than their GPS. That’s why I would be interested to know if there was a charted shallow or rock within, say 50m either side of the taken course line. And I think if one were identifiable, the Italians would have said so by now. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mega-cruise-ships-tragedies-waiting-to-happen/570937/143 "2012-01-18T07:28:58Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > And thanks \*\*jjimm \*\*for that reference. Yes, even Lloyd’s list has access to data about the vessel’s course from this time _and from four months ago_ but you ( **tomndebb** ) think the Italian government can’t work out how to plot this on a chart (or something) and that the company had no clue. Maybe. Maybe not. > > Like me, I suspect that the editor of Lloyd’s List has seen masters thrown to the wolves and character assassinated after something like this a few too many times to be sure that he deserves it. That the captain got away with this stunt on previous runs does not mean that he was justified in doing it repeatedly. And as his sending his ship into waters where it would capsize demonstrates and as his being found ashore at 11:30 when there were still over 300 persons aboard three hours later demonstrates, his judgment is pretty thoroughly questionable. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mega-cruise-ships-tragedies-waiting-to-happen/570937/144 "2012-01-18T07:30:41Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > And I think if one were identifiable, the Italians would have said so by now. You need for them to have identified one by now, but that hardly makes it imperative for them to do so. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mega-cruise-ships-tragedies-waiting-to-happen/570937/145 "2012-01-18T07:34:10Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > Like me, I suspect that the editor of Lloyd’s List has seen masters thrown to the wolves and character assassinated after something like this a few too many times to be sure that he deserves it. And what wolves. The comments on the fake facebook page, in Italian, are pretty shocking. “This pig coward should be made to drown.” “Not fit to be in charge of a pedalo.” “Too much of a coward to hang himself.” “SHIT ON YOUR NAME! A dishonor THAT WILL HAUNT THE FUTURE GENERATIONS of your unfortunate seed. When you are in prison I will tie the knot in the rope for you. LIVING SHIT!” Etc. Not to mention the descent into regional insults: “Neapolitans should not be allowed to be in charge of people’s lives.” and “This is the perfect metaphor for Italy: someone saying everything is fine while the ship sinks.” From previous observation of the Italian judiciary, with public opinion like that I’d say he’s fucked. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mega-cruise-ships-tragedies-waiting-to-happen/570937/146 "2012-01-18T07:42:26Z")
I don’t need anything **tomndebb**. I just know how to read the media, between the lines as well as along them. Hell, if LL has the co-ordinates it doesn’t even need the involvement of the Italian government. What do you think, that the premier maritime news publication in the world doesn’t have access to charts? That they don’t know how to plot the GPS co-ordinates they clearly have on a small scale chart? I mean, they only have dozens of mariners on staff, I’m sure that would be beyond them. Do you in all honesty think that they wouldn’t think it would be a good story to point out that the master’s claim that he hit something uncharted doesn’t tally with the fact that there are charted rocks or shallows on his publically available course sailed line? Great Og, man, join up the bloody dots. I’ve been involved with investigating dozens of maritime casualties. The first thing anyone maritime does when they hear about something like this is get out a chart and look at it, and if they have the course, plot it. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mega-cruise-ships-tragedies-waiting-to-happen/570937/147 "2012-01-18T07:59:56Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > Was it away from its intended course? > > The rest of your post is know nothing crap. You take pilots typically going into harbours, where it is compulsory, but very seldom otherwise. Masters don’t “stick to approved channels” they take vessels all over the world using charts to know where they can and can’t go. There are common routes but outside certain regulated places channels aren’t “approved”. > > It sounds to me like the master engaged in what is increasingly sounding like a common practice of close “fly bys” of islands and he has been somewhat incautious. I’m withholding judgment on whether that is right but it sounds like it. > > And **tomndebb** your post about the uncharted rock issue is off the mark. The owners have said they don’t have access to the black box because it has been confiscated. They don’t know precisely where the vessel went. The Italian government does, yet they haven’t said there is a charted rock. Doesn’t add up to me. The Times article today said that the previous near approach was approved, and was related to a festival. Costa is saying that this approach was not approved, and was not part of the course loaded into the computers. I am open to the possibility that they are lying. We are only talking about cruise ships here. Divergence from the plotted course might well use more fuel and time, and eat into the cruise company’s bottom line, so I’m a bit doubtful that masters of these vessels have the leeway that others have. “I didn’t know the rock was there” is hardly convincing, since the captain is hardly going to say he did. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mega-cruise-ships-tragedies-waiting-to-happen/570937/148 "2012-01-18T08:17:50Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > That the captain got away with this stunt on previous runs does not mean that he was justified in doing it repeatedly. And as his sending his ship into waters where it would capsize demonstrates and as his being found ashore at 11:30 when there were still over 300 persons aboard three hours later demonstrates, his judgment is pretty thoroughly questionable. The previous excursion was authorized by the company. BTW, this location is just north of Civitavecchia, where cruise ships dock for excursions to Rome. I was there a few years ago. I don’t know if we passed by this island, since we were coming from Barcelona, but it is possible. However this place is hardly the middle of nowhere. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mega-cruise-ships-tragedies-waiting-to-happen/570937/149 "2012-01-18T08:18:25Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > The Times article today said that the previous near approach was approved, and was related to a festival. Costa is saying that this approach was not approved, and was not part of the course loaded into the computers. I am open to the possibility that they are lying. If that LL diagram is accurate, the course last time and the course this time were (at the crucial point) exceedingly close to one another. Sounds like they came within a whisker of disaster last time also. > [@](#): > > “I didn’t know the rock was there” is hardly convincing, since the captain is hardly going to say he did. You miss the point. It isn’t a matter of the master’s subjective knowledge. Either there were rocks or shallows shown on the chart on his course or there weren’t. If there were, the fact that he didn’t know about them is not going to give him any excuse. Quite the opposite. I don’t for a moment believe there was no known rock shown on the chart merely because the master says so. I am entirely willing to believe that the master may have blurted this out in complete denial of reality. What I struggle to believe is that there is a rock or shallow on the chart on the line of the course sailed, but that four days later, no one has pointed this out. Maybe this will happen tomorrow or next week. It seems surprising to me given the concerted effort to release things to the media, and the intensity of coverage and analysis, that this hasn’t happened already. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mega-cruise-ships-tragedies-waiting-to-happen/570937/150 "2012-01-18T10:25:23Z")
> [@jjimm](#): > > And what wolves…From previous observation of the Italian judiciary, with public opinion like that I’d say he’s fucked. Listened to the conversation. He was repeatedly dope-slapped (with cause) and there is no recovery from that. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mega-cruise-ships-tragedies-waiting-to-happen/570937/151 "2012-01-18T10:36:51Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > It seems surprising to me given the concerted effort to release things to the media, and the intensity of coverage and analysis, that this hasn’t happened already. This could be a side-effect of the fragmented nature of Italian government bodies (e.g. at least two parallel police forces in any given jurisdiction). The coast guard released the phone calls, the captain is being pursued by state prosecutors, but the investigation is being carried out by (purely hypothetically) the Department of the Marine which is more reserved. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mega-cruise-ships-tragedies-waiting-to-happen/570937/152 "2012-01-18T11:36:53Z")
Well the Capt now says that he ended up in the boat coz he tripped into it. Along with the 2nd and 3rd in command. FFS! He also admits the change was his doing > [@](#): > > The captain confirmed that he took the cruise liner close to Giglio’s rocky coast in order to give a ‘salute’ to an old colleague, a former Costa Cruises captain named Mario Palombo. > > “It’s true that the salute was for Commodore Mario Palombo, with whom I was on the telephone. The route was decided as we left Civitavecchia but I made a mistake on the approach. I was navigating by sight because I knew the depths well and I had done this manoeuvre three or four times. But this time I ordered the turn too late and I ended up in water that was too shallow. > > “I don’t know why it happened, I was a victim of my instincts.” [http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/9022170/Costa-Concordia-captain-says-he-tripped-and-fell-into-life-boat.html](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/9022170/Costa-Concordia-captain-says-he-tripped-and-fell-into-life-boat.html) ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mega-cruise-ships-tragedies-waiting-to-happen/570937/153 "2012-01-18T11:37:54Z")
> [@jjimm](#): > > This could be a side-effect of the fragmented nature of Italian government bodies (e.g. at least two parallel police forces in any given jurisdiction). The coast guard released the phone calls, the captain is being pursued by state prosecutors, but the investigation is being carried out by (purely hypothetically) the Department of the Marine which is more reserved. Possibly, although given that excerpts from the VDR have been released, the leaking body is the same body (or one of the same bodies) who have the GPS track. If that body has the VDR it is highly likely they have enough marine expertise to plot the track on a chart. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mega-cruise-ships-tragedies-waiting-to-happen/570937/154 "2012-01-18T11:40:28Z")
> [@yojimbo](#): > > He also admits the change was his doing Well if that’s an accurate report on how he navigated then he is a prime goose and deserves all he gets. It reads like an Onion story. Whether that’s because the master was a goose or because it is an Onion like story I don’t know. I don’t expect the Tele would have made up the story from whole cloth. ---
**Author:** ![Walther\_Ego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8dc957/32.png) [@Walther\_Ego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walther_Ego)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mega-cruise-ships-tragedies-waiting-to-happen/570937/155 "2012-01-18T11:55:58Z")
> [@robinson](#): > > 1. One reason the US does not have much of a merchant marine is its strict regulations. Most ships are registered in Panama or Liberia, because their regulations are not stringent. I would say that most ships that carry Liber(tar)ian or Panamian flag, do it because they can avoid the evil socialist taxation. In stringency you are right, but the overwhelming majority of big ships are insured and thus have a classification certificate. This certificate is typically more stringent than local regulation. Furthermore, everybody needs to bow in front of the Convention for the Safety Of Life At Sea, so safety issues are the same for everybody. In fact, one of the most stringent regulation in the Jones Act is that merchant ships carrying the US flag need to be built in the US. So you get an American price tag for the ship instead of a Chinese. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mega-cruise-ships-tragedies-waiting-to-happen/570937/156 "2012-01-18T12:01:09Z")
So the rock is on the charts, or the rock isn’t on the charts. Isn’t the navigator obligated to watch the sonar or depth finder, especially when entering unfamiliar territory? ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mega-cruise-ships-tragedies-waiting-to-happen/570937/157 "2012-01-18T14:42:27Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > What I struggle to believe is that there is a rock or shallow on the chart on the line of the course sailed, but that four days later, no one has pointed this out. Someone _has_ pointed out that there were charted rocks within 150m of the course sailed: Captain Schettino. If you look at the damage on the port side of the ship it seems likely that this happened during a turn to starboard (which caused the ship’s stern to swing to port). IOW, the ship may have been in a position where a straight course would have (marginally) worked, but where a safe turn wasn’t possible. A relevant question is the extent to which a captain is entitled to put faith in the perfect accuracy of charts. The notion that it’s impossible for a troublesome rock to extend further off a rocky point than a chart says seems dubious. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mega-cruise-ships-tragedies-waiting-to-happen/570937/158 "2012-01-18T14:44:20Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > Isn’t the navigator obligated to watch the sonar or depth finder… As they were doing around 15 knots, this would take some sort of magic depth finder able to look far ahead. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mega-cruise-ships-tragedies-waiting-to-happen/570937/159 "2012-01-18T14:58:37Z")
Sorry - post #157 was made before reading the link in #152. If this is accurate, it seems clear that the Captain was trying to pass as close as he could to the island, but slightly misjudged the turn to starboard and thus put his port side into rocks that apparently cannot correctly be called uncharted. > [@](#): > > It reads like an Onion story. Indeed. I was assuming the full details must surely show that Schettino was not so incompetent as he’d been made out to be. I continue to think that the maneuver to beach the ship in shallow water looks like a masterful combination of skill and luck, which probably saved many lives. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mega-cruise-ships-tragedies-waiting-to-happen/570937/160 "2012-01-18T15:51:38Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > . going on, and we went to a cooking demo that was a blast. > > If memory serves, it was $1800 each, and checking my bank statements we spent an additional $800 on shopping, a special dinner at the specialty restaurant on board for our anniversary, a couple bottles of wine and a few drinks, and bling to give away for presents to various people. Not bad for escaping 2 nasty new england snow storms in tropical warmth =) This is one one the main reasons I like cruising, it’s a good value. I’m leaving on an NCL cruise today for 10 days. I am paying $2400 but that is for a single occupancy mini-suite. The fare per person for a double occupancy balcony cabin was $899.00. That’s less than 90 bucks a day for all you can eat food, a room and transportation…not to mention entertainment and recreational facilities. Before we booked this cruise we had considered trying a land based resort but the best fares we could find for a GOOD resort came to over $500 bucka a day with a private room, if I had agreed to share with my friend I could’ve gotten it down to $400.00 a day maybe but that was with lots of restrictions on the mandatory meal plan. So we went with the cruise and splurged on good single occupancy cabins. As to why I like this type of vacation…I am not looking for excitement and adventure on vacation, I get enough of that in everyday life. I am looking for complete escape, total relaxation and freedom from decision-making and the cruise ship atmosphere gives me this…I get waited on, my room gets cleaned and picked up everytime I leave, (on the last one the cabin steward took it upon myself to get some water glasses and arrange all my make-up for me) and I don;t have to DO anything. You don’t really have to do anything or plan anything, everything is less than 5 minutes away. And I get to dress up without worrying about trying to get a taxi in high heeled shoes. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mega-cruise-ships-tragedies-waiting-to-happen/570937.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mega-cruise-ships-tragedies-waiting-to-happen/570937.md?page=9)