# Mel Gibson **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 31, 2006, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mel-gibson/366636 "2006-07-31T00:48:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2006, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mel-gibson/366636/41 "2006-07-31T21:20:23Z")
[QUOTE=Linty Fresh] [From the Straight Dope Science Advisory Board.](http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mjesuskill.html) I happen to agree with most of what you say, **Diogenes** , but while Caiaphas couldn’t actually execute Jesus, he _could_ recommend it to Pilate. I believe he did just that. I really don’t blame Caiaphas, though. From the looks of things, he really didn’t have much of a choice, and yes, the NT account of Pilate trying to spare Jesus’s life strikes me as pretty bogus too. Caiaphus was in a difficult situation, and he didn’t have a much of a choice in recommending Jesus’s death, but he still recommended it. [/quote] While I agree that it’s plausible that Caiaphas may have helped with the arrest, his “recommendation” would have been unsolicited and unnecessary. The Romans did not solicit the advice of their own puppets when it came to making decisions about whether to execute a potential public menace. Anyone who looked like he might start a riot at Passover would have been summarily executed without regard to the opinions of the High Priest. > [@](#): > > Jesus seemed to have come to Bethlehem with every intention of stirring up trouble Jerusalem [/Nitpick] ---
**Author:** ![priapus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@priapus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/priapus)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2006, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mel-gibson/366636/42 "2006-07-31T21:22:30Z")
Sooooo,if the Jews were responsible for Christ ending up on the cross its ok for Mel to rant at the cops,then try to escape? ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2006, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mel-gibson/366636/43 "2006-07-31T21:34:05Z")
[QUOTE=acsenray] It doesn’t seem to me that the Anti-Defamation League is very interested in having opinions about Christianity or conservatism. Usually, when they express an opinion, it’s about **anti-Semitism**. Do you discount what they have to say on that subject? Or do you believe that merely by criticizing a statement by someone claiming adherence to Christianity or conservatism that they are crossing the line into subjects in which their expertise is suspect? [/QUOTE] I think, however, that it is reasonable to be somewhat suspect of an organization whose sole purpose is to promote a Jewish agenda. It would be similar to taking the word of a Christian organization such as Raph Reed’s group (name escapes me) without understanding that their sole purpose is to promote a Christian agenda. Sounds like Gibson is a mean drunk and an arsehole to boot. ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2006, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mel-gibson/366636/44 "2006-07-31T21:55:44Z")
[QUOTE=Lochdale] I think, however, that it is reasonable to be somewhat suspect of an organization whose sole purpose is to promote a Jewish agenda. [/QUOTE] The sole purpose of the ADL is not to promote a “Jewish agenda” - whatever that means. > [@](#): > > As the 1960’s gave birth to the civil rights movement, ADL marched in the forefront of the fight for freedom, advocating for the individual’s right to be judged by virtue of character and not by immutable characteristics. ADL actively worked for the passage of the Civil Rights Acts of 1964 and 1968 and the Voting Rights Act of 1965, three of the most important pieces of legislation in the history of the civil rights movement. And the ADL charter > [@](#): > > “The immediate object of the League is to stop, by appeals to reason and conscience and, if necessary, by appeals to law, the defamation of the Jewish people. Its ultimate purpose is to secure justice and fair treatment to all citizens alike and to put an end forever to unjust and unfair discrimination against and ridicule of any sect or body of citizens.” ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2006, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mel-gibson/366636/45 "2006-07-31T22:13:29Z")
[QUOTE=Lochdale] I think, however, that it is reasonable to be somewhat suspect of an organization whose sole purpose is to promote a Jewish agenda. [/QUOTE] **Lochdale** , that’s a gross distortion of the role of the Anti-Defamation League. I quote from their Charter (1913): > [@](#): > > “The immediate object of the League is to stop, by appeals to reason and conscience and, if necessary, by appeals to law, the defamation of the Jewish people. Its ultimate purpose is to secure justice and fair treatment to all citizens alike and to put an end forever to unjust and unfair discrimination against and ridicule of any sect or body of citizens.” While the primary focus of the ADL has been anti-semitism, they have been active in opposing bigotry of all sorts, including white supremacists and gay-bashers. Their website at [www.adl.org](http://www.adl.org) describes their activities. Their purpose is NOT to “promote a Jewish agenda” (whatever that means) but to expose and oppose bigotry and racism in all its forms. The term “Jewish agenda” is annoying to me. You wouldn’t talk about a “black agenda” or a “gay agenda.” The implication is that there **is** some sort of global Zionist conspiracy with a secret agenda, and I find that offensive. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2006, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mel-gibson/366636/46 "2006-07-31T22:17:16Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] The only part of Dex’s piece I might disagree with is that there is any reason to believe that Caiaphas would _necessarily_ have been involved in the arrest. Josephus says that the Romans kept an extra contigent of their own guards at the Temple during passover, so the Temple police would not have been necessary. [/quote] [QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] While I agree that it’s plausible that Caiaphas may have helped with the arrest, his “recommendation” would have been unsolicited and unnecessary. The Romans did not solicit the advice of their own puppets when it came to making decisions about whether to execute a potential public menace. Anyone who looked like he might start a riot at Passover would have been summarily executed without regard to the opinions of the High Priest. [/QUOTE] I’m not a religious scholar, so I’m not equipped to debate the details of the accuracy. I can only direct you to my source, which I find reliable in its research and conclusions. Obviously religious scholars can and do disagree on some of the details. And while I admit that you have a valid point that it might not have been _necessary_ given the presence of the additional Roman guards, it isn’t an unprecedented act historically. Again, _“Caiaphas was concerned that Jesus would incite a riot, and so sent armed guards to arrest him, gave him a hearing, and then recommended execution to Pilate, who promptly complied. This is the way the synoptic gospels describe the event, **and this is the way things happened in other cases as several stories by Josephus show**.”_ And he had good motive, if you also take into consideration his role as local peace-keeper and that he had reason to believe that not turning Jesus in on his own would inevitably _“[lead] to massacre of the population and of Jesus’ followers by Roman troops”_ > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > The Jewish high priests during this period were generally handpicked by the Romans ane were seen as collaborators, so it’s not out of the question that they could have facillitated the arrest, but the _trial_ is fiction, as is the Jewish mob screaming for blood. At worst, a few high placed Jewish authorities did the bidding of the Romans (rather than the other way around), but Jesus was not executed by or at the behest of “the Jews” or any Jewish authority or for any breech of Jewish law. I don’t think we disagree on those facts. [QUOTE=Linty Fresh] Drat. You win this round, **Shayna**! (Shakes fist) [/QUOTE] /waves back at **Linty** with a smile. 🙂 [QUOTE=Lochdale] I think, however, that it is reasonable to be somewhat suspect of an organization whose sole purpose is to promote a Jewish agenda. It would be similar to taking the word of a Christian organization such as Raph Reed’s group (name escapes me) without understanding that their sole purpose is to promote a Christian agenda. [/QUOTE] It is unreasonable to be suspect of an organization whose sole purpose you completely misrepresent. > [@ADL Charter](#): > > [http://www.adl.org/main\_about\_adl.asp](http://www.adl.org/main_about_adl.asp) > > “The immediate object of the League is to stop, by appeals to reason and conscience and, if necessary, by appeals to law, the defamation of the Jewish people. Its ultimate purpose is to secure justice and fair treatment to all citizens alike and to put an end forever to unjust and unfair discrimination against and ridicule of any sect or body of citizens.” > > [RIGHT]ADL Charter > October 1913[/RIGHT] And on preview, I see it’s my turn to shake my fist at **Adam Yax**. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![ddgryphon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/8c91f0/32.png) [@ddgryphon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ddgryphon)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2006, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mel-gibson/366636/47 "2006-07-31T22:18:40Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] 1. The allegation that the Jewish people were responsible at _all_ for the crucifixion is patently false. They were not and _could_ not have been. 2. No matter how that ancient smear is sanitized now, _historically_ it has been the root of the “Christ killer” meme which has been responsible for a great deal of anti-Semitic violence. [/QUOTE] Sorry to not be clear, but what confuses me is HOW they (Christians) can condem the Jewish people negatively for the act that brings them salvation? Yes, I understand all too well the roots of anti-semetic violence and the whole “Christ-killers” idiocy. I just don’t understand how they (Chrisitans) can embrace that idea when without it, there would be no salvation and no Christianity. Think of it as another lovely legacy left us by Constantine and Rome in general. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2006, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mel-gibson/366636/48 "2006-07-31T22:29:31Z")
[QUOTE=Shayna] I’m not a religious scholar, so I’m not equipped to debate the details of the accuracy. I can only direct you to my source, which I find reliable in its research and conclusions. Obviously religious scholars can and do disagree on some of the details. And while I admit that you have a valid point that it might not have been _necessary_ given the presence of the additional Roman guards, it isn’t an unprecedented act historically. Again, _ **"Caiaphas was concerned that Jesus would incite a riot, and so sent armed guards to arrest him, gave him a hearing, and then recommended execution to Pilate, who promptly complied.** _ [/quote] My only problem is that the part which I bolded is historically uncorrobrated, it’s a hypthesis, not a historically known fact. Moreover, a recommendation by the High Priest would have been superfluous and irrelevant and a formal trial on the Passover would have been impossible. At most, a scenario similar to what is depicted in John might be plausible (an arrest and brief detainment with an informal interrogation before turning him over to the Romans) might have been plausible, but not a formal trial, and the execution would have been the Romans’ idea, not the High Priest’s. In other words, Caiaphas might have helped the Romans catch a guy they already wanted to kill, but they didn’t kill him _because_ Caiaphas recommended it. ---
**Author:** ![Salt\_Seller](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbce88/32.png) [@Salt\_Seller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Salt_Seller)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2006, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mel-gibson/366636/49 "2006-07-31T23:57:46Z")
[QUOTE=Dropzone] Am I correct to assume you mean that it should, though it rarely does, go without saying that no group of people can or should bear collective guilt for the actions of some of their ancestors? [/QUOTE] Isn’t that kinda the whole idea of Christianity’s concept of original sin? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2006, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mel-gibson/366636/50 "2006-08-01T00:19:54Z")
[QUOTE=Salt Seller] Isn’t that kinda the whole idea of Christianity’s concept of original sin? [/QUOTE] Back when I was a goy going to Sunday School, it meant that people are born mean and nasty. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2006, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mel-gibson/366636/51 "2006-08-01T00:36:40Z")
[QUOTE=dropzone] Am I correct to assume you mean that it should, though it rarely does, go without saying that no group of people can or should bear collective guilt for the actions of some of their ancestors? [/QUOTE] [shrug] Scripture strongly implies otherwise. > [@Matthew Chapter 27](#): > > 11 And Jesus stood before the governor: and the governor asked him, saying, Art thou the King of the Jews? And Jesus said unto him, Thou sayest. > 12 And when he was accused of the chief priests and elders, he answered nothing. > 13 Then said Pilate unto him, Hearest thou not how many things they witness against thee? > 14 And he answered him to never a word; insomuch that the governor marvelled greatly. > 15 Now at that feast the governor was wont to release unto the people a prisoner, whom they would. > 16 And they had then a notable prisoner, called Barabbas. > 17 Therefore when they were gathered together, Pilate said unto them, Whom will ye that I release unto you? Barabbas, or Jesus which is called Christ? > 18 For he knew that for envy they had delivered him. > 19 When he was set down on the judgment seat, his wife sent unto him, saying, Have thou nothing to do with that just man: for I have suffered many things this day in a dream because of him. > 20 But the chief priests and elders persuaded the multitude that they should ask Barabbas, and destroy Jesus. > 21 The governor answered and said unto them, Whether of the twain will ye that I release unto you? They said, Barabbas. > 22 Pilate saith unto them, What shall I do then with Jesus which is called Christ? They all say unto him, Let him be crucified. > 23 And the governor said, Why, what evil hath he done? But they cried out the more, saying, Let him be crucified. > 24 When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it. > 25 Then answered all the people, and said, **His blood be on us, and on our children.** > 26 Then released he Barabbas unto them: and when he had scourged Jesus, he delivered him to be crucified. That Scripture was invoked to justify Christian-on-Jewish violence, and nonviolent forms of persecution and exclusion, for centuries. When it was written, I think, the by then predominantly Gentile Christians must have been growing increasingly frustrated that those perverse, stiff-necked Jews had stubbornly rejected **their** own Messiah, so there must be something deeply wrong with them. ---
**Author:** ![rocking\_chair](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rocking_chair/32/2918_2.png) [@rocking\_chair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rocking_chair)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2006, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mel-gibson/366636/52 "2006-08-01T00:41:05Z")
am i the only one who thinks the current pic.s of mel in a beard, looks strangly like sadam hussein? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2006, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mel-gibson/366636/53 "2006-08-01T00:54:56Z")
[QUOTE=rocking chair] am i the only one who thinks the current pic.s of mel in a beard, looks strangly like sadam hussein? [/QUOTE] I thougt exactly the same thing. For a split second when I first saw a picture on Drudge, I thought it _was_ Saddam. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2006, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mel-gibson/366636/54 "2006-08-01T01:48:35Z")
[QUOTE=C K Dexter Haven] The term “Jewish agenda” is annoying to me. You wouldn’t talk about a “black agenda” or a “gay agenda.” The implication is that there **is** some sort of global Zionist conspiracy with a secret agenda, and I find that offensive. [/QUOTE] I don’t know if **Lochdale** is one of them, but a lot of people do talk about there being a [“gay agenda.”](http://www.missionamerica.com/agenda.php?PHPSESSID=101132b5f88a74f6ca37b13cbf) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2006, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mel-gibson/366636/55 "2006-08-01T01:55:12Z")
[QUOTE=rocking chair] am i the only one who thinks the current pic.s of mel in a beard, looks strangly like sadam hussein? [/QUOTE] So when they make the next Iraq War epic, casting’s a done deal! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2006, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mel-gibson/366636/56 "2006-08-01T02:21:02Z")
[QUOTE=C K Dexter Haven] **Lochdale** , that’s a gross distortion of the role of the Anti-Defamation League. I quote from their Charter (1913):While the primary focus of the ADL has been anti-semitism, they have been active in opposing bigotry of all sorts, including white supremacists and gay-bashers. Their website at [www.adl.org](http://www.adl.org) describes their activities. Their purpose is NOT to “promote a Jewish agenda” (whatever that means) but to expose and oppose bigotry and racism in all its forms. The term “Jewish agenda” is annoying to me. You wouldn’t talk about a “black agenda” or a “gay agenda.” The implication is that there **is** some sort of global Zionist conspiracy with a secret agenda, and I find that offensive. [/QUOTE] I absolutely think there is a gay agenda and a black agenda. There is also a catholic agenda, a muslim agenda, a nudist agenda, a ufo spotters agenda etc. Put another way, a group that is (for the most part) single issue or ethnicall or culturally defined has an agenda. That agenda may bias it’s stance on an issue for better or for worse. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2006, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mel-gibson/366636/57 "2006-08-01T02:56:17Z")
[QUOTE=Lochdale] I absolutely think there is a gay agenda and a black agenda. There is also a catholic agenda, a muslim agenda, a nudist agenda, a ufo spotters agenda etc. [/QUOTE] Don’t forget the transgenda agenda! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Cunctator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/43a26b/32.png) [@Cunctator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cunctator)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2006, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mel-gibson/366636/58 "2006-08-01T03:01:41Z")
There are suggestions in today’s papers ([link](http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,19971156-5001021,00.html)) that his role as a life governor of NIDA (the Australian National Institute of Dramatic Art) may be under a cloud as a result of his alleged actions. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2006, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mel-gibson/366636/59 "2006-08-01T14:22:29Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] [shrug] Scripture strongly implies otherwise. [/QUOTE] > [@Salt Seller](#): > > Isn’t that kinda the whole idea of Christianity’s concept of original sin? Yeah, yeah, yeah, “blood on us,” Original Sin, Mark of Cain, etc. All very good reasons to be careful when choosing which parts of Judaism and Christianity to follow. Paul did it when he tossed out circumcision for goyische converts and if it’s good enough for Paul it’s good enough for me. > [@ddgryphon](#): > > Sorry to not be clear, but what confuses me is HOW they (Christians) can condem the Jewish people negatively for the act that brings them salvation? Quite true. Without the crucifiction Jesus might’ve died in his sleep and where would we all be then? However, the deepest my theological thinking gets is that, if Christ (or Custer) died for our sins, the least I can do is commit some to make his death worthwhile, but I might’ve missed the point. Finally, thank you, **Shayna** (and **Dex** ) for saving me from having to do any research. ---
**Author:** ![Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ac8455/32.png) [@Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bippy_the_Beardless)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2006, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mel-gibson/366636/60 "2006-08-01T15:30:52Z")
[QUOTE=rowrrbazzle] A lot of people who supported him gave him the benefit of the doubt on the perceived anti-Semitism of PotC and his own father’s opinions. His remarks have at least seriously damaged that doubt, if not destroyed it entirely. In any case that support is justly reduced or removed. Such remarks should be condemned, no matter who says them. [/QUOTE] This is my view also, before this he was given some slack, and many of the stories were little more than heresay, now we have some proof that he really is a biggotted asshole. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mel-gibson/366636.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mel-gibson/366636.md?page=4)