# Mel Gibson's Pa--Nuttier Than a Stuckey's Log! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 10, 2003, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mel-gibsons-pa-nuttier-than-a-stuckeys-log/160404 "2003-03-10T20:59:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mel-gibsons-pa-nuttier-than-a-stuckeys-log/160404/21 "2003-03-11T01:46:47Z")
[Sedevacantism](http://www.cmri.org/sedevac.htm) is the position of some ultra-conservative Catholic splinter groups that John Paul II is not a legitimate pope, and that the papacy is therefore vacant (from the Latin for “the Chair is vacant”). As you can see from [this essay](http://www.cmri.org/95prog2.htm) (which argues against all that new-fangled, bleeding-heart, “religious liberty” talk), sedevacantists, in addition to their rather quaint theological views, may also have some scary sounding social and political views as well. (I dunno if either Gibson _pere_ or _fils_ is actually a sedevacantist or holds any other views in common with Bishop\* Pivarunas.) Or, if you prefer, “Bishop” Pivarunas. ---
**Author:** ![Punoqllads](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d2c977/32.png) [@Punoqllads](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Punoqllads)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mel-gibsons-pa-nuttier-than-a-stuckeys-log/160404/22 "2003-03-11T02:23:57Z")
I believe Mel is a sedevacantist. I recall hearing him on TV launch an angry barb about Vatican II, saying all it had brought about was, “decreasing faith and pedophiles,” or somesuch. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mel-gibsons-pa-nuttier-than-a-stuckeys-log/160404/23 "2003-03-11T02:31:49Z")
I should probably also point out that even if Mel & family are sedevacantists, they may not necessarily be members of Bishop Pivarunas’ particular splinter group. I think there are a number of such dissident groups which have split off from the mainline Catholic Church, and I don’t know what they really agree on other than that they don’t agree with the mainline Church. ---
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mel-gibsons-pa-nuttier-than-a-stuckeys-log/160404/24 "2003-03-11T02:51:33Z")
Mel Gibson is “Catholic” in the sense that Posse Comitatus are “patriotic Americans” ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mel-gibsons-pa-nuttier-than-a-stuckeys-log/160404/25 "2003-03-11T02:53:56Z")
Regarding Gibson’s upcoming film about the last hours of Jesus: > [@](#): > > LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - A prominent Jewish leader on Friday asked actor Mel Gibson to make certain that his new film on the last 12 hours in the life of Christ does not portray the Jews as collectively responsible for the crucifixion. > > Rabbi Marvin Hier, dean and founder of the Simon Wiesenthal Center, said he was concerned because an article to be published in the New York Times Magazine portrays Gibson as a traditionalist Catholic opposed to the reforms of Vatican II. > > … > > “If the new film seeks to undo Vatican II … it would unleash more of the scurrilous charges of deicide directed against the Jewish people, which took the Catholic Church 20 centuries to finally repudiate,” he said. > > … > > Discussing his film in a recent TV interview, Gibson was asked whether his account might particularly upset Jews. He said, “It may. It’s not meant to. I think it’s meant to just tell the truth.” ([link](http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=598&ncid=600&e=6&u=/nm/20030308/film_nm/leisure_passion_dc)) Well, _this_ ought to be be _fun._ :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mel-gibsons-pa-nuttier-than-a-stuckeys-log/160404/26 "2003-03-11T03:02:09Z")
Wait…are there some people who see the Pharisees as just like most Jews? I should hope not! Mel Gibson is a complete asshole. ---
**Author:** ![kung\_fu\_lola](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f4b2a3/32.png) [@kung\_fu\_lola](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kung_fu_lola)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mel-gibsons-pa-nuttier-than-a-stuckeys-log/160404/27 "2003-03-11T03:14:54Z")
" I think it’s just meant to tell the truth" And he knows “the truth” **how**? Because he built a time machine and witnessed the crucifixtion of Jesus for himself? Man, celebrities really _can_ do anything they want! :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![RexDart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b77776/32.png) [@RexDart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RexDart)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mel-gibsons-pa-nuttier-than-a-stuckeys-log/160404/28 "2003-03-11T03:18:27Z")
How exactly is Gibson _supposed_ to portray Jews in the film, and what precisely would be upsetting to them. I’m having a tough time figuring out what he’s supposed to avoid. I never heard of Jewish outrage against the film/play _Jesus Christ Superstar_, and that film’s climactic scene paints Pilate bending over backwards to avoid killing Jesus only to be compelled into action by an unruly mob of locals. It was my understanding that this was more or less the accepted view of the whole thing. Is that view now considered inappropriate or racially insensitive? ---
**Author:** ![RexDart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b77776/32.png) [@RexDart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RexDart)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mel-gibsons-pa-nuttier-than-a-stuckeys-log/160404/29 "2003-03-11T03:45:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Eve \* (gender pronoun corrected) > > \*\* Mel himself has come out with some wowsers over the years. he’s anti-gay rights, anti-abortion, anti-divorce . . . Pretty much what you’d expect for a Catholic, really, but his films’ backers would really like to keep this under wraps . . . \*\* BTW, since when is “anti-abortion” considered so extreme that it should be sandwiched between anti-gay and anti-divorce on a list of “wowsers”? I guess it’s a rarely held position among Hollywood stars, so it’s surprising only when you put it in that context. And what exactly does “anti-divorce” mean? If it’s in the context of his Church only, then are we talking about the outright prohibition of divorce? Or if we’re talking about society at large, does it just mean there are too many divorces? I’d agree with that. Does it mean people ought not get divorced for frivolous reasons? I’d agree with that. What’s so extremist about that ---
**Author:** ![Bren\_Cameron\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@Bren\_Cameron\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bren_Cameron_1)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mel-gibsons-pa-nuttier-than-a-stuckeys-log/160404/30 "2003-03-11T04:37:04Z")
> [@](#): > > How exactly is Gibson supposed to portray Jews in the film, and what precisely would be upsetting to them. I’m having a tough time figuring out what he’s supposed to avoid. I never heard of Jewish outrage against the film/play Jesus Christ Superstar, and that film’s climactic scene paints Pilate bending over backwards to avoid killing Jesus only to be compelled into action by an unruly mob of locals. It was my understanding that this was more or less the accepted view of the whole thing. Is that view now considered inappropriate or racially insensitive? This is how I understand the matter. Although Pilate is commonly depicted as not wanting to execute Jesus, in the end, crucifixion is a Roman method of execution, not a Jewish one. If the Sanhedrin had executed him, they would likely have stoned him. Instead, it was the Romans who ordered and carried out the execution. However, for whatever reason, the story is presented as all being the Jews’ fault, and poor Pontius Pilate was just forced by an angry mob. But here’s the thing, Pilate had armies to back him up, and (from what I read in Elaine Pagels’ _The Origin of Evil_) Pilate was no pushover. He wasn’t the kind of guy to wring his hands and then just let a screaming crowd have their way. He’d have sent the soldiers in, and executed or freed whoever he damn well wanted. (I’m sure someone with more knowledge in that area than I have will be along to speak up–I’m going by what reading I’ve done.) I don’t know if there have or haven’t been protests about Jesus Christ Superstar, or other depictions of Jesus’ death, but I do know that there’s a subset of Christians who saddle all Jews everywhere with responsibility for Jesus’ death, and Jews who have run into this understandably resent it. And I think any movie that purports to tell “the truth” about the matter should be very carefully researched. It’s not a question of being PC, it’s a question of getting what facts we have as straight as possible. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 8:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mel-gibsons-pa-nuttier-than-a-stuckeys-log/160404/31 "2003-03-11T08:40:39Z")
Pilate was also thought to be a bloody and capricious despot, not a principled guy who’d wring his hands over yet another fellows who’s followers called him messiah (who the more revolutionary Jews expected to overthrow Rome). ---
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mel-gibsons-pa-nuttier-than-a-stuckeys-log/160404/32 "2003-03-11T12:38:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RexDart \* > \*\*BTW, since when is “anti-abortion” considered so extreme that it should be sandwiched between anti-gay and anti-divorce on a list of “wowsers”? I guess it’s a rarely held position among Hollywood stars, so it’s surprising only when you put it in that context. > \*\* Yeah…somebody better pass Martin Sheen, Patricia Heaton et al that memo about them being “extreme” ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mel-gibsons-pa-nuttier-than-a-stuckeys-log/160404/33 "2003-03-11T13:13:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > **Wait…are there some people who see the Pharisees as just like most Jews? I should hope not!** Well, yeah. That’s that whole anti-semetism thing. The Catholic Church was still using the “perfidious Jews” language in their liturgy until Vatican II, and made it really clear that Jesus was killed by the Jews. ---
**Author:** ![Shirley\_Ujest](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shirley\_Ujest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shirley_Ujest)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mel-gibsons-pa-nuttier-than-a-stuckeys-log/160404/34 "2003-03-11T13:34:34Z")
So, does Mel want everyone to go back to the ways of the world as it was Pre-Vatican II? I don’t see how having Mass in latin and the whole purgatory issue is going to make the world a better place. [slight hijack] I read that Mel’s oldest daughter ( hanna?) wanted to become a nun (she was 19 at the time) and I have no idea if she decided to or not. I need closure on this. [/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mel-gibsons-pa-nuttier-than-a-stuckeys-log/160404/35 "2003-03-11T13:39:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Shirley Ujest \* > \*\*So, does Mel want everyone to go back to the ways of the world as it was Pre-Vatican II? > \*\* I don’t know about the rest of the world…but he wishes for a pre Vatican II Catholic church. > [@](#): > > \*\* > I don’t see how having Mass in latin and the whole purgatory issue is going to make the world a better place. > \*\* There are still churches that offer a mass in Latin…I am not a Canon lawyer, but I think they are supposed to get dispensation from the local ordinary to do so. I’m not sure what you’re referring to in regards to “the whole purgatory issue” [slight hijack]\*\* I read that Mel’s oldest daughter ( hanna?) wanted to become a nun (she was 19 at the time) and I have no idea if she decided to or not. I need closure on this. [/hijack] \*\* [/QUOTE] Blessed be the name of [Google™](http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/09/14/1031608343843.html) ---
**Author:** ![Shirley\_Ujest](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shirley\_Ujest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shirley_Ujest)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mel-gibsons-pa-nuttier-than-a-stuckeys-log/160404/36 "2003-03-11T13:52:06Z")
[hijack continued] Aigh. Going into the convent at 21. That is so…ummmm…sad. she’ll be the youngest and only one, more than likely. ( My cousin of sorts is a 75 year old nun -2nd in charge of the order - and despite national advertising campaigns for recruiting, they had \*two \* applicants. Both were unsuitable for the work as they were looking for food/shelter kinda thing.) Nuns, God Love em, are a dying breed. [/hijack] Re: purgatory, the church not so long ago decided (IRC) that it uhhh, didn’t exist or something like that. Or maybe it was limbo they were referring too. Sorry, I have been out of the RCC for so long I really don’t a) keep up with it b) ignore what I hear unless it is titilatting and c) considering myself some other kind of religion. **In other news that shocked Shirley:** Gibson is playing Jesus? First, he’s a little too old for the role. Second, that’s a bit pompous. I always try to ignore the fodder of a movie star’s life off-screen and just appreciate their work on-screen. However, Gibson, who has been one of my favorite actors for years, has slowly dropped in popularity with me because of his religious views. ( and he’s starting to look a little old.) It’s okay to be conservative ( he’s possible the only one in HOllywood to be) but…his views just are too conservative for me. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mel-gibsons-pa-nuttier-than-a-stuckeys-log/160404/37 "2003-03-11T14:08:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Captain Amazing \* > \*\*Well, yeah. That’s that whole anti-semetism thing. The Catholic Church was still using the “perfidious Jews” language in their liturgy until Vatican II, and made it really clear that Jesus was killed by the Jews. \*\* Well, what I meant where that people try to take a position on the old “Jews killed Christ” crap. I didn’t even know that the church used to teach that OFFICIALLY. Shows how much I know. Damn. Gibson is a shithead, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mel-gibsons-pa-nuttier-than-a-stuckeys-log/160404/38 "2003-03-11T14:13:43Z")
**Shirley** , you’re thinking of Limbo. I kind of like the idea of Purgatory. Sort of a half-way house. It’s not either or. There’s somewhere in the middle. Well, kind of. If his daughter wants to be a nun, hey, go for it. You know, I knew the guy was against birth control, but I had no idea he was this radical. What does the Vatican today say about Sedevacantism? ---
**Author:** ![widdershins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f0a364/32.png) [@widdershins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/widdershins)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mel-gibsons-pa-nuttier-than-a-stuckeys-log/160404/39 "2003-03-11T14:24:35Z")
The _NY Times Magazine_ article **Eve** mentioned in the OP started out talking about the Catholic church that Gibson’s Catholic traditionalist (as the article calls them) congregation is building. It has no affiliation with the local archdiocese, and follows a pre-Vatican II set of practices. All Latin Mass, no meat on Fridays, women must cover their heads in church, etc. The article mentions four different splinter groups of Catholic traditionalism but says there are many different ones and about 600 traditionalist chapels. It does say that the group split from their former traditionalist church, and sought to build a new church, after it was taken over by the Society of Saint Pius X- one of the splinter groups named, which is described as “more Vatican-friendly”. Mel’s dad gives the article writer a tutorial in sedevacantism; and refers to all popes from John XXIII (there ya go **Guin** ) as illegitimate “anti-popes” (like during the Avignon Papacy I suppose). Hutton Gibson also says that Vatican II was “a Masonic plot backed by the Jews.” Hoo-boy. The impression that I got from the article is that Mel isn’t as extreme as his father, but only slightly less so. Mel may be working on his tinfoil hat, but his dad already has his on. The article can still be read for free on the New York Times website (probably for the rest of the week), but registration is required. Interesting, but loopy reading. Oh yeah, since this is the Pit: Fuck, that Max really is Mad! ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mel-gibsons-pa-nuttier-than-a-stuckeys-log/160404/40 "2003-03-11T14:46:20Z")
Well, John XXIII is my favorite Pope. We were always taught in school that he was the ultimate Pope, more or less. He was SuperPope. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mel-gibsons-pa-nuttier-than-a-stuckeys-log/160404.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/mel-gibsons-pa-nuttier-than-a-stuckeys-log/160404.md?page=3)