# Memes and morphic resonance **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [February 15, 2004, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memes-and-morphic-resonance/229341 "2004-02-15T13:39:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![BarnOwl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e95f7d/32.png) [@BarnOwl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BarnOwl)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2004, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memes-and-morphic-resonance/229341/1 "2004-02-15T13:39:03Z")
Are these related? Are they one and the same, even? The transmission of how to make an axe, reminds me of morphic resonance, an idea postulated by a Britisher some years ago. He claimed that knowledge suddenly acquired by members of a society - even lower animals - goes out into the ether (or wherever) and is then absorbed almost instantly by the brains of others in the same species. He gives the example of birds in a small area of England. They learned to remove the caps of milk bottles (left on porches by the deliverymen), to then suck up the cream that had risen to the top. As soon as these birds learned this trick, suddenly, all the birds in that species all over England were doing it. If I remember right, the spread of this behavioral process was all too fast to have been communicated by conventional means. Humans benefit from this phenomenon, as well, he says. For example, if you want to solve your morning newspaper’s crossword puzzle with less effort, wait until the afternoon. People who solve the puzzles in the morning involuntarily transmit the answers into the air, where they just hang around. So, if you pick up that newspaper later in the day, and turn to the puzzle, **bingo!** Here come the answers swooping into your brain. Has anyone seriously tested this? I think the Brit did a little. He found a crossword puzzle that was published in a morning newspaper in one section of England, and miles and miles away, the same puzzle was published in an afternoon paper. So, he created two groups - one that worked the puzzles in the morning, the other in the afternoon. The groups were as equal in smarts, etc., as he could get them. Naturally, the afternoon solvers outshone their morning counterparts. I don’t know. It’s a very charming theory. It would be pleasant if it turned out to be valid. ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2004, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memes-and-morphic-resonance/229341/2 "2004-02-15T13:51:00Z")
Sounds like new-age bullshit to me. Certainly nothing presented here is anything remotely approaching conclusive. The crossword puzzle experiment, for example, is rather easily explained without resorting to some magical knowledge-transmitting phenomenon. One likely explanation is that people are simply more alert later in the day, and thus more able to do the puzzles. No, I can say with near certitude that there is nothing to this silliness. ---
**Author:** ![TheMemeWarrior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TheMemeWarrior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheMemeWarrior)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2004, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memes-and-morphic-resonance/229341/3 "2004-02-15T14:47:19Z")
I’ll be a bit more generous and say those phenomenon are possible but where they occur they are simply the result of normal information transfer procedures, many of which we fail to notice. For example bill and jim are co-workers. Bill does the crossword in the morning. The crossword contains the word “athwart.” Bill uses the word “athwart” in conversation with jim. When Jim does the crossword “athwart” is still at the top of his mind and he easily gets that answer. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Controvert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dec6dc/32.png) [@The\_Controvert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Controvert)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2004, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memes-and-morphic-resonance/229341/4 "2004-02-15T16:10:12Z")
Just do a similar experiment, but have yesterday’s afternoon crossword appear in today’s morning paper. ---
**Author:** ![hawthorne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@hawthorne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hawthorne)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2004, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memes-and-morphic-resonance/229341/5 "2004-02-15T16:30:25Z")
[Noodles needs catchier cowbells](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/040213.html) ---
**Author:** ![BarnOwl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e95f7d/32.png) [@BarnOwl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BarnOwl)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2004, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memes-and-morphic-resonance/229341/6 "2004-02-15T16:52:29Z")
> [@The Controvert](#): > > Just do a similar experiment, but have yesterday’s afternoon crossword appear in today’s morning paper. I offered Morhic Resonance as a charming absurdity. But if we realy wanted to test its validity… Have all the kids in a city take SAT’s over the same 2 or 3 days. Have all the smart kids take it in the mornings, the lesser lights in the afternoons. If we did this for say, three years, and reversed it for three years - less smart kids tested in the mornings, smart kids tested in the afternoons. we might be able to debunk memes and morphic resonance. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2004, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memes-and-morphic-resonance/229341/7 "2004-02-15T16:54:38Z")
The proposed mechanism of “morphic resonance” is more than mere telepathy or Jungian racial memory. Rupert Sheldrake proposes that it is an entirely new type of causality, one that can even effect purely physical systems. He gives the example in his works of crystalizing compounds. The first time a chemical compound is created, it is often very difficult to get to crystalize. But after it’s been done before, it apparently gets easier. The mundane explanation is that microscopic traces of the crystalized compounds serve as seeds for crystalization when the experiment is repeated. Sheldrake proposes an experiment to test this: given the vast possible number of organic compounds, there are any number of compounds that have never actually been created before. Have a lab set up in a completely sealed airtight room, and synthesize a brand new compound. Then crystalize it however many times it takes for the process to become easier. Then, have another lab thousands of miles away repeat the experiment. If the second lab shows the compound is much easier to crystalize than it was originally, that would seem to preclude a classical explanation. In a way, this sounds almost like Roger Penrose’s proposal that quantum physics could explain how some crystal growth seems to demonstrate non-local properties. ---
**Author:** ![TheMemeWarrior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TheMemeWarrior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheMemeWarrior)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2004, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memes-and-morphic-resonance/229341/8 "2004-02-15T17:16:55Z")
> [@Antiochus](#): > > . > > If we did this for say, three years, and reversed it for three years - less smart kids tested in the mornings, smart kids tested in the afternoons. we might be able to debunk memes and morphic resonance. I dont see how you’d be debunking memes. The two talk about the same kind of phenomena but memes work through people imitating each other through conventional chains of contact. ---
**Author:** ![BarnOwl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e95f7d/32.png) [@BarnOwl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BarnOwl)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2004, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memes-and-morphic-resonance/229341/9 "2004-02-15T18:15:51Z")
So, TMW, if behavior based on memes is simply imitation, is it then just another term for monkey-see-monkey-do? There doesn’t seem anything special about the concept. Sitting in your cave, you make an axe. I look on truly fascinated, seeing this happen for the first time in my life. In the process, a meme has jumped from your brain to mine? ---
**Author:** ![TheMemeWarrior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TheMemeWarrior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheMemeWarrior)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2004, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memes-and-morphic-resonance/229341/10 "2004-02-15T18:59:46Z")
> [@Antiochus](#): > > So, TMW, if behavior based on memes is simply imitation, is it then just another term for monkey-see-monkey-do? > > There doesn’t seem anything special about the concept. > > Sitting in your cave, you make an axe. I look on truly fascinated, seeing this happen for the first time in my life. > > In the process, a meme has jumped from your brain to mine? Bingo, no magic no faeries. There is something special about this concept though. If you subscribe to the Darwinian algorithm an occasionally mutating replicator will inevitably begina a process of natural selection. I dont want to threadjack though if this thread is to talk about morphic resonance. My only point was that memes and morphic resonance are not the same thing. I’ve gone deeper into the meme arguments in the “memes” thread. ---
**Author:** ![antechinus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/fbc32d/32.png) [@antechinus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/antechinus)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2004, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memes-and-morphic-resonance/229341/11 "2004-02-16T03:12:08Z")
Memes and morphic resonance are not related. **Memes** are ideas communicated between minds using scientifically explainable modes, such as sound and vision. **Morphic resonance** is a theory that formative causal influences can travel by means not understood by science. This theory does not have evidential backing and is not supported by the scientific community - it is hooey. ---
**Author:** ![BarnOwl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e95f7d/32.png) [@BarnOwl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BarnOwl)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2004, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memes-and-morphic-resonance/229341/12 "2004-02-16T12:10:49Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Sheldrake proposes an experiment to test this: given the vast possible number of organic compounds, there are any number of compounds that have never actually been created before. Have a lab set up in a completely sealed airtight room, and synthesize a brand new compound. Then crystalize it however many times it takes for the process to become easier. Then, have another lab thousands of miles away repeat the experiment. If the second lab shows the compound is much easier to crystalize than it was originally, that would seem to preclude a classical explanation. In a way, this sounds almost like Roger Penrose’s proposal that quantum physics could explain how some crystal growth seems to demonstrate non-local properties. It would seem to me that science would need to test morphic resonance before declaring it bunk. Has anyone tested Sheldrake’s proposal? Seems easy enough. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2004, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memes-and-morphic-resonance/229341/13 "2004-02-16T12:27:23Z")
I heard the following from someone once: two islands, monkeys on each. Crabs running around, but the monkeys don’t do anything with them. Researcher comes to island A and uses a rock to crack open a crab. After a few days, the monkeys see what he’s doing and imitate him. The researcher then goes to island B, and is amazed to see the monkeys there, which is an entirely discrete group, cracking crabs with rocks, something they hadn’t done before. I have since tried to find out who did this alleged example of ‘morphic resonance’, but have drawn a blank and am preparing myself to conclude that it’s total bullshit - unless anyone else has also heard of this? ---
**Author:** ![The\_PHB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/df788c/32.png) [@The\_PHB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_PHB)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2004, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memes-and-morphic-resonance/229341/14 "2004-02-16T13:40:26Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by **jjimm** > _I have since tried to find out who did this alleged example of ‘morphic resonance’, but have drawn a blank and am preparing myself to conclude that it’s total bullshit - unless anyone else has also heard of this?_ Sounds to me like **jjimm** has dredged an urban legend from his subconscious. How appropriate… 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![universe.zip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/a9adbd/32.png) [@universe.zip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/universe.zip)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2004, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memes-and-morphic-resonance/229341/15 "2004-02-16T14:09:08Z")
**jjimm** , I googled for Sheldrake and monkeys, and all the sites I came up with said that he got the idea from a 1979 book by Lyall Watson, who later claimed to have used it as a metaphor only. (Both Sheldrake and Ken Keyes took the idea up and developed it further.) It is not based on facts, as Elaine Myers, who investigated the matter further, points out. (Okay, so the monkeys wash potatoes and don’t crack crabs - sounds like the same story though.) Here is her article: [http://www.context.org/ICLIB/IC09/Myers.htm](http://www.context.org/ICLIB/IC09/Myers.htm) She still likes the idea of morphic resonance, but she admits that > [@](#): > > It is possible that the washing alternative established by the monkeys on Koshima Island did create a morphogenetic field that made it easier for monkeys on other islands to “discover” the same technique, but the actual research neither supports nor denies that idea. and that > [@](#): > > We still need direct communication between individuals(…) Here is an excellent article on the whole story: [http://www.uhh.hawaii.edu/~ronald/HMP.htm](http://www.uhh.hawaii.edu/~ronald/HMP.htm) Apparently, Watson failed to mention that a potato-washing monkey had swum to another island before the monkeys there learned the trick - sounds more like memes than morphogenetic fields to me… As a reaction to this article, Watson later conceded > [@](#): > > “I accept Amundson’s analysis of the origin and evolution of the Hundredth Monkey without reservation. It is a metaphor of my own making, based–as he rightly suggests–on very slim evidence and a great deal of hearsay. I have never pretended otherwise… (…)” (See section “Follow-up” in Amundson’s article.) ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2004, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memes-and-morphic-resonance/229341/16 "2004-02-16T14:14:18Z")
Bloody hell, you really do have the whole universe zipped up in there, don’tcha! Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![universe.zip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/a9adbd/32.png) [@universe.zip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/universe.zip)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2004, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memes-and-morphic-resonance/229341/17 "2004-02-16T14:29:55Z")
😉 Anytime. (There were teachers at my school who presented Sheldrake’s theories to us as facts - I’m kinda allergic to that hogwash… and I don’t even want to know how many of my former classmates actually believe it to this day.)