# Memetics is also a bunch of hooey

**URL:** <https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memetics-is-also-a-bunch-of-hooey/466070>\
**Category:** Great Debates\
**Created:** [October 1, 2008, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memetics-is-also-a-bunch-of-hooey/466070 "2008-10-01T20:30:05Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 1\
**Page:** 6

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**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\
**Post date:** [October 10, 2008, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memetics-is-also-a-bunch-of-hooey/466070/101 "2008-10-10T06:13:49Z")

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> [@Darwins\_Finch](#):
>
> Fitness can either exist as an exaptation (a pre-existing state which yields an advantage when environments change) or an adaptation (a changing state which yields an advantage in a given environment).

These are the things that help increase fitness, but fitness is still the ability to reproduce better.

> [@Darwins\_Finch](#):
>
> Thus, it is not sufficient to merely produce more copies to be considered “fit”. A meme, or anything else, must have an inherent advantage in a particular environment to be considered fit.

Um… That advantage is what makes it able to produce more copies.

> [@Darwins\_Finch](#):
>
> To me, this presents a problem for memes, as there is nothing inherently superior or inferior about a given meme until it is evaluated.

That’s like saying there is nothing inherently superior or inferior about a martial arts champion until he is tested against an opponent in the ring. What’s your point?

There’s nothing inferior or superior about a gene until is it utilized in an organism and has a chance to spread through the population.

And memes reproduce by methods other than ‘evaluation’.

> [@Darwins\_Finch](#):
>
> All information can be copied; not all information persists in culture. And even then, good ideas can, and have been, lost, while bad ideas can persist.

Well, depends on your definition of good idea and bad idea. But yes, morally “bad” or “destructive to human happiness” type ideas can be more fit (persist in culture longer or better) than “good” ideas. This just reinforces the idea that persistence = fitness.

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