# Memo to Democrats: You Can't Beat Something With Nothing **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 6, 2002, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-democrats-you-cant-beat-something-with-nothing/135528 "2002-11-06T11:11:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![SuaSponte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SuaSponte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuaSponte)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2002, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-democrats-you-cant-beat-something-with-nothing/135528/81 "2002-11-07T16:01:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chumpsky \* > In any election where there is something actually at stake, it is a virtual impossibility for the vote to be close to 50-50. This is even more true in a country as diverse as the U.S. On the other hand, if the entire populace flips a coin, then roughly 50% will land tails, and the other 50% will land heads. On a factual level, your argument is lacking because while the result of the 2000 election was 50-50, the _distribution_ of the vote was not random. The concentration of Democratic votes on the coasts demonstrates that the populace wasn’t voting at random. On a theoretical level, what makes you think that an election with something actually at stake could not be as close as 50-50? If anything, I would think that an election with something at stake would be a closely fought one. Sua ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2002, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-democrats-you-cant-beat-something-with-nothing/135528/82 "2002-11-07T16:52:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Giraffe \* > **RTFirefly** , great OP. Thanks, **Giraffe**. > [@](#): > > I’ve been getting increasingly frustrated with the Dems for exactly this reason for the last several years. The only position the party as a whole seems to currently hold is “we’ll believe whatever you want us to believe, just elect us”. I wouldn’t take it that far, but it _appears_ that way, because of the way they’ll pick up and drop issues according to the straws in the wind. From Harris Wofford’s win in PA (1990?) to the 1994 debacle, the Dems were riding universal health care. Since 1994, they’ve all but dropped it. Through the mid-1990s, they advocated a series of modest gun control laws, then shut up about that real fast when the 2000 results said it might be hurting them. And so forth. > [@](#): > > However, I think another reason they have lost so much ground in the last few years is their unwillingness to stand their ground in conflicts. I think that’s a side-effect of not knowing what their core principles are - if you don’t know what you stand _for_, you don’t know where to stand your ground. > [@](#): > > They could learn a lot from the Republicans – when stories about Bush’s drunk driving or his daughter’s underage drinking come out, he simply said “none of your business” and moved on. Clinton should have done the exact same thing with the blowjob and the pot-smoking. I think part of it here is that the GOP simply has a much better network for turning petty scandals into major issues than the Dems do. But discussing the ins and outs of that would be another thread of its own. > [@](#): > > The Republicans spent eight years criticizing Clinton for everything he did, good or bad. The Democrats couldn’ t bring themselves to criticize Bush even after he pushed for unpopular unilateral action in Iraq, had close ties with Enron and other corporate scandals, was president while the economy went from boom to the toilet, and about whom a majority of Americans say needs to do more on domestic issues. Pathetic. They’ve _criticized_ him. What they have too often failed to do is present their alternative vision to the American people. For instance, the Dems have criticized Bush’s tax cut, but (with a very few exceptions) they won’t go so far as to say the remaining cuts shouldn’t be allowed to take effect. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2002, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-democrats-you-cant-beat-something-with-nothing/135528/83 "2002-11-07T17:28:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RTFirefly \* > From Harris Wofford’s win in PA (1990?) to the 1994 debacle, the Dems were riding universal health care. Since 1994, they’ve all but dropped it. As well they should. The battle for universal health care is over; we lost. But health care itself is still a damned good issue for the Democrats, and all they’ve managed to do with it is babble incomprehensibly about “prescription drugs.” The party needs to identify what’s wrong with the current system (hint–everyone hates their HMO) and take a stand on what needs to be done. They absolutely cannot sit back while the Republicans control the agenda for the next two years and just respond to whatever they come up with. Seize some damn initiative, guys! ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2002, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-democrats-you-cant-beat-something-with-nothing/135528/84 "2002-11-07T18:13:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RTFirefly \* > \*\*They’ve _criticized_ him. What they have too often failed to do is present their alternative vision to the American people. For instance, the Dems have criticized Bush’s tax cut, but (with a very few exceptions) they won’t go so far as to say the remaining cuts shouldn’t be allowed to take effect. \*\* The tax cut is an example of one of the few issues on which the Democrats have said anything at all critical, but even this was timid and wishy-washy criticism at best. In most areas, during the election itself they stated little or no dissatisfaction with the administration, not even in those areas where the _majority_ of public opinion has been against the administration (e.g. unilateral action against Iraq and the handling of the economy). Granted, this is part of not having any clear core principles to rally around, but it’s also unjustifiable passivity. Voters already have candidates for congress who agree with everything the president does. They’re called Republicans. If you’re too afraid to take a stand on anything, you don’t belong in politics. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2002, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-democrats-you-cant-beat-something-with-nothing/135528/85 "2002-11-07T18:35:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Shodan \* > I thought we were talking about the Presidental elections of 1972, 1984, 1988, and 2000, and the Congressional elections of 1994, and 2002. I don’t know who you were talking to about what, but I’ve responded to you in the [appropriate forum](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=143135). I’ll have nothing further to say to you in this thread; here, I’ll stick to responding to posts that are actually on topic. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2002, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-democrats-you-cant-beat-something-with-nothing/135528/86 "2002-11-07T18:41:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by minty green \* > As well they should. The battle for universal health care is over; we lost. I’m not so sure about that. Can you imagine a Dem commercial starting with a clip from those “Harry and Louise” commercials from 1994, where they talk about all the bad stuff that’ll happen under Clinton’s universal health care proposal? Then the voice-over: “As you know, the Republicans and the HMOs defeated national health care in 1994, and all that happened _anyway_. Shouldn’t we at least have gotten universal health care? We still can.” As I understand it, repealing the tax cuts that haven’t yet taken effect would be just about right. But the Dems would have to have some courage…which was where we started, of course. > [@](#): > > But health care itself is still a damned good issue for the Democrats, and all they’ve managed to do with it is babble incomprehensibly about “prescription drugs.” The party needs to identify what’s wrong with the current system (hint–everyone hates their HMO) and take a stand on what needs to be done. Can’t argue with that. > [@](#): > > They absolutely cannot sit back while the Republicans control the agenda for the next two years and just respond to whatever they come up with. Seize some damn initiative, guys! Ay-fuckin’-men. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Giraffe \* > Voters already have candidates for congress who agree with everything the president does. They’re called Republicans. If you’re too afraid to take a stand on anything, you don’t belong in politics. And amen to that, too. I wasn’t surprised, when I opened up this morning’s paper, to find that [E.J. Dionne, Jr.](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A20543-2002Nov6.html) is on the same page: > [@](#): > > The natural response of Democrats to this disaster will be to retreat to comfortable old arguments. The party’s left will say the problem is that Democrats weren’t progressive enough. The party’s moderates will say the problem is that Democrats weren’t centrist enough. > > This debate is useless. The Democrats’ problem is not about positioning. It’s about having something to say about things that matter. Most Democrats believe the Bush tax cuts are a disaster not only because they threaten fiscal chaos but also because they will deprive the government of revenue needed to solve problems. But too many Democrats were afraid to say that. > > Most Democrats believe that government regulation – to protect the environment and to curb business abuses – can be a good thing. But too many were afraid to say that. > > Most Democrats worry that a divided Bush foreign policy team will mismanage a war on Iraq and needlessly alienate our allies. But too many were afraid to say that. > > Republicans stand for things and have passion. They have built a powerful network of fundraisers, lobbyists, think tanks, consultants, talk-show hosts and grass-roots activists. They now have control of the federal government. Democrats have to learn how to oppose, how to organize and how to inspire. In this election, they failed at all three. Preach it, brother. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2002, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-democrats-you-cant-beat-something-with-nothing/135528/87 "2002-11-07T19:00:25Z")
At an earlier point in this thread, we were talking about the Democratic stance on the military, war, and Iraq. As some of you know, I consider the [Washington Monthly](http://www.washingtonmonthly.com) to be **the** required reading for non-PC lefty political junkies. The current issue has several examples of why, some of which relate to the above issues. A former speechwriter for Madeline Albright has a [sobering and eye-opening piece](http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2001/0211.hurlburt.html) on the Democratic establishment’s underlying lack of knowledge - and interest - in defense issues. And Ken Pollack was Clinton’s NSC director for Persian Gulf affairs from 1999 to 2001. He’s written a book, _The Threatening Storm_, on why we really may find ourselves having to invade Iraq. While it comes down to nukes, he doesn’t exactly get there by anyone’s knee-jerk path. The [review](http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2001/0211.marshall.html) of his book in this month’s Washington Monthly gives a cogent summary of his case. Those pieces are both worth a good read. And I highly recommend subscribing to the magazine. They’re as willing to skewer liberal sacred cows as conservative ones, and they’ve been doing both for threee decades. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2002, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-democrats-you-cant-beat-something-with-nothing/135528/88 "2002-11-07T19:06:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by xenophon41 \* > \*\* > Mostly true, I think, but I wouldn’t write Gore off just yet — not because the Y2000 Gore could beat Y20004 Bush, but because there are very few Y2002-2004 Democrats who have more than a snowball’s chance of beating Bush. Gore is still one of them. > \*\* I agree that the Democratic congressional leadership has no chance. Gore may look OK compared to them, but that doesn’t mean much. So here’s my prediction: The 2004 Democratic candidate will be a sitting governor. To find out who has a shot, make a list of all D governors, and start throwing out obvious losers like Gray Davis. Even if you’ve never heard of the people left on the list, any one of them could be our next president. Clinton was a complete unknown outside of Arkansas in 1991. I think the Democrats are going to start grooming one of these people right away, copying the Republican strategy of annointing Bush Jr. early, making him/her the front runner and the national face of the Democratic party. Or perhaps more accurately one of these governors is going to seize that position. Gore will only run if there is a vacuum in the leadership. And this 2002 election is going to shake things up in the Democratic party. I can’t imagine the Democrats letting things coast until 2004. Gore will be the nominee only if the Democrats continue to implode. And I think they have too many smarts to let that happen. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2002, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-democrats-you-cant-beat-something-with-nothing/135528/89 "2002-11-07T19:08:13Z")
Pitching health care reform as “universal health care” simply falls into Republican hands, enabling them to play on the same “Government bureaucrats controlling your doctor!” scare tactics that killed it in 1993 and would kill it again today. Besides, not even Hillary’s mess of a proposal actually provided for universal health care. It would have let plenty of people slip through the cracks. Nope, what they need to do is identify the biggest problems with the current system (second hint–nobody likes their insurance companies) then become strong advocates for fixing them. But dammit, they need to do _something_ coherent. Give the candidates a message they can take to the voters, not just a bunch of amorphous, wishy-washy nonsense. :mad: I’ll try to get to your defense links later. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2002, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-democrats-you-cant-beat-something-with-nothing/135528/90 "2002-11-07T19:15:14Z")
**Lemur** , I would not count Gore out yet. If he actually commits himself to running an aggressive, populist campaign instead of playing not to lose, he could be a formidable 2004 candidate. He gave a pair of speeches–one on domestic policy, one on foreign policy (including the same criticism I’ve been making about Bush re: Tora Bora)–a couple months ago, and they were direct, confrontational, and well-received. He’s also untouched by the failings of the Democratic leadership over the last two years. I’m not committed to the guy, but he’s definitely not to be counted out. ---
**Author:** ![CyberPundit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/76d3ee/32.png) [@CyberPundit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CyberPundit)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2002, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-democrats-you-cant-beat-something-with-nothing/135528/91 "2002-11-07T19:17:31Z")
In general I am very surprised the Dems haven’t been able to stitch together a coherent economic populist platform when the general situation seems to cry for it, You have: 1)a poor economy and stockmarket 2)a vanished surplus 3) many business scandals 4) A President and VP with CEO backgrounds and shady-looking business histories. All this in the background of a massive tax cut ,titled towards the rich, which was supposed to stimulate the economy. The Dems should have been able to tie this together and appeal to the sense of economic anxiety among the electorate. They appeared to be trying to do this at the time of the Enron scandal and then inexplicably they gave up. My guess is that the immediate poll numbers suggested that the corporate scandal issue wasn’t that hot. But this is where you have to take a risk and believe that the underlying potential of the message is there and that if you repeat it eloquently for long enough it will make an impact. As mentioned here the Dems don’t seem that kind of political stamina and just flit from one message to another according to the latest poll. The other thing that the Dems don’t seem to be good at doing is framing the debate. The perfect example is tax cuts. The GOP frames the issues as tax cut or no tax cut. Either the government keeps the money or the “people” get it back. The Dems should counter by changing the debate to **who gets the tax cut**. The fact is that the Bush cut (income and estate tax) would give 40% to the top 1%. In fact the Dems could easily have constructed a **bigger** tax cut for 99% of voters by sharply reducing what the top 1% got. Then they should have put the GOP on the defensive and got them to explain why they put such a big priority on giving the super-rich a big cut. Again the Dems did talk about the distribution of the tax for a while last summer. Then they gave up. They should have hammered the message again and again for a year and a half especially in conjunction with their attacks on corporate scandals. The more I think about it the more I am amazed at the incompetence and timidity of the Democrats. They really deserved what they got. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2002, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-democrats-you-cant-beat-something-with-nothing/135528/92 "2002-11-07T19:19:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by xenophon41 \* > \*\* > Bob, unfortunately, is most likely screwed as a Presidential candidate because of [this story](http://www.ashbrook.org/publicat/oped/owens/01/kerrey.html). Do a web search on Bob Kerrey + “war crime” and you’ll find tons of other stories on this, some of them pretty vile, others evenhanded. Regardless of the truth to his situation (which will never be known by any who weren’t there), regardless of his innate decency and sensibility, this is a millstone around his neck politically. \*\* Thanks for the cite. The second link in my post links to a rather more bizarre version of the same story; hence the tongue-in-cheek comment about him having CIA connections. I suspect Bob is probably enjoying the quiet life outside politics anyhow, and if so, more power to him. ---
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2002, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-democrats-you-cant-beat-something-with-nothing/135528/93 "2002-11-07T19:27:31Z")
Those who believe in the viability of universal healthcare as a campaign issue would do well to look at the fate of Measure 23 in Oregan. Promised universal healthcare, and got crushed at the polls (less than 25% support, IIRC) two days ago. This does **not** mean that the idea will not pick up mass support at some point. But it does suggest that that point is not now. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2002, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-democrats-you-cant-beat-something-with-nothing/135528/94 "2002-11-07T19:42:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by CyberPundit \* > The GOP frames the issues as tax cut or no tax cut. Either the government keeps the money or the “people” get it back. The Dems should counter by changing the debate to **who gets the tax cut**. The fact is that the Bush cut (income and estate tax) would give 40% to the top 1%. In fact the Dems could easily have constructed a **bigger** tax cut for 99% of voters by sharply reducing what the top 1% got. Then they should have put the GOP on the defensive and got them to explain why they put such a big priority on giving the super-rich a big cut. YES!!! It’s like they’re afraid of the right wing’s boogeyman of “class warfare.” It’s time to take a little class warfare and shove it right down their throats. You want a tax cut, Pubbies? Fine, here’s your tax cut: Cut the marginal rate on the first tax bracket in half, from 15% to 7.5%. It is absolutely disgraceful that the Bush tax cut didn’t reduce taxes on the lowest incomes even one tiny bit. Then cut the second marginal rate from this year’s 27% to 22%. All the others stay the same. End result is that the working poor and middle class get a very hefty tax break, not just the insignificant bullshit Republicans have been selling them for decades. “_Oooh, a $300 check! Thanks, President Bush!_” :rolleyes: Meanwhile, the marginal tax rates on the higher income brackets (mine included, incidentally) stay exactly the same. Hell, maybe we’ll even raise 'em a couple points on marginal income over a million dollars a year, just on principle. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2002, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-democrats-you-cant-beat-something-with-nothing/135528/95 "2002-11-07T20:15:46Z")
> [@](#): > > I’m hearing now that one of the problems this time through was low voter turnout, which hurt the Democrats. Not in my state (MN). Second highest turnout in state history, and we elected a Republican governor, Senator, and new Representative. And **RTFirefly** , I have responded to your Pit post as best I can. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![John\_Corrado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a88e4f/32.png) [@John\_Corrado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Corrado)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2002, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-democrats-you-cant-beat-something-with-nothing/135528/96 "2002-11-07T21:15:05Z")
> [@](#): > > _originally posted by IzzyR_ > Those who believe in the viability of universal healthcare as a campaign issue would do well to look at the fate of Measure 23 in Oregan. Promised universal healthcare, and got crushed at the polls (less than 25% support, IIRC)two days ago. > > This does not mean that the idea will not pick up mass support at some point. But it does suggest that that point is not now. I think everyone completely misinterprets “Universal Health Care.” The fact is, UHC as a concept does have a great deal of support. The problem is trying to actually come up with an actual _implementation_ and _detailed plan_ of UHC rather than “we should all have free health care” that things go awry. As a metaphor- or possibly simile, as I can never keep the two straight- Football has massive support among Americans. This does not mean that a plurality of Americans, or even football fans, would be happy with the Dallas Cowboys winning the Super Bowl. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2002, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-democrats-you-cant-beat-something-with-nothing/135528/97 "2002-11-07T21:29:04Z")
Blasphemer! ---
**Author:** ![John\_Corrado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a88e4f/32.png) [@John\_Corrado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Corrado)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2002, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-democrats-you-cant-beat-something-with-nothing/135528/98 "2002-11-07T21:49:20Z")
Ah, but I guarantee I’ve won over RT with that argument. I should’ve split the difference and gone with a moderate and bland choice like the Chargers, but figured I should actually make a strong stand in the hopes of energizing my base. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2002, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-democrats-you-cant-beat-something-with-nothing/135528/99 "2002-11-07T22:35:45Z")
All your base are energized!! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2002, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-democrats-you-cant-beat-something-with-nothing/135528/100 "2002-11-07T22:52:33Z")
minty green: > [@](#): > > hint–everyone hates their HMO That again? minty, in the “Predictions” thread, I showed you two cites that prove that over 75% of Americans are satisfied with their private health-care plans. If your refusal to believe this is representative of Democrat thinking, it’ll be a long time before they and a majority of Amricans coincide on issues in a meaningful way. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-democrats-you-cant-beat-something-with-nothing/135528.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-democrats-you-cant-beat-something-with-nothing/135528.md?page=6)