# Memo to Democrats: You Can't Beat Something With Nothing **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 6, 2002, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-democrats-you-cant-beat-something-with-nothing/135528 "2002-11-06T11:11:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2002, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-democrats-you-cant-beat-something-with-nothing/135528/161 "2002-11-12T15:02:13Z")
“An issue”? Screw that. We’re talking about multiple issues, clearly defined and marketed. Read the first page again and you’ll see them. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2002, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-democrats-you-cant-beat-something-with-nothing/135528/162 "2002-11-12T15:07:41Z")
> [@](#): > > Dennis Hastert crawls back into whatever hole he was summoned from. The funny thing here is that Hastert was specifically chosen because he was more moderate than his immediate predecessors. Lord knows, I can’t think of anything particularly “evil” that can be pinned specifically on him (unlike, say, Newt Gingrich, who was clearly responsible for pretty much everything when he was active). I guess all Republicans were “summoned from a hole”, eh? Maybe someone needs to visit Stoid’s “partisan” thread. Chaim Mattis Keller ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2002, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-democrats-you-cant-beat-something-with-nothing/135528/163 "2002-11-12T15:10:53Z")
Like I said, we just need to re-frame the issues that are already on the table. For example, we need to do a better job of explaining _why_ the tax cuts proposed by Republicans are bad medicine for middle-class Americans. Instead, in the past election cycle, we allowed Republicans to distract voters with the war and to frame the tax cut question as a simplistic “Were in favor of tax cuts and the Democrats are against them.” Democrats responded limply with the equally simplistic “The tax cuts favor the rich,” when they would have done better to explain _how_ the proposed tax cuts will _hurt the middle class_. (Frankly, we could use some mad-dog talk radio hosts to challenge the seeming Republican monopoly in that area. I can’t tell you how many people I know who derive their political views entirely from listening to talk radio. We can deride Rush Limbaugh all we want, but we’d do better to find an antidote to him.) ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2002, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-democrats-you-cant-beat-something-with-nothing/135528/164 "2002-11-12T15:35:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by cmkeller \* > \*\*The funny thing here is that Hastert was specifically chosen because he was more moderate than his immediate predecessors. \*\* My recollection of news stories at the time was that DeLay knew he was “radioactive” after pushing the impeachment vote, and pushed Hastert instead as a front man. I am not convinced that Hastert even now has the actual power in the House. Just curious, for all those folks deploring the lack of a coherent Democratic message: Do you think the Republican one is all that more coherent? Or were these election results based more on personalities and transient political atmospheric conditions? ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2002, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-democrats-you-cant-beat-something-with-nothing/135528/165 "2002-11-12T15:53:49Z")
Yes, I do think the Republican message was far more coherent, and much better marketed. Homeland Security and War With Iraq were easy sells, and they were not effectively countered with anything on the Democratic side. **Chaim** , regarding Dennis Hastert crawling back to whatever hole he came from, I meant primarily that he was a nobody on the national scene before being magically elevated to Speaker. The guy is still basically invisible, as far as I can tell. There’s also a good article regarding this discussion in this week’s [Time](http://www.time.com/time/covers/1101021118/n2004.html?cnn=yes). ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2002, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-democrats-you-cant-beat-something-with-nothing/135528/166 "2002-11-12T17:32:20Z")
minty, sorry I misinterporeted what you meant about Hastert. Chaim Mattis Keller ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2002, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-democrats-you-cant-beat-something-with-nothing/135528/167 "2002-11-12T18:06:26Z")
Not at all, Chaim. ---
**Author:** ![Tejota](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/958977/32.png) [@Tejota](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tejota)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2002, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-democrats-you-cant-beat-something-with-nothing/135528/168 "2002-11-12T21:29:45Z")
Let us not forget that Republican’s won their marginal victory by running as DEMOCRATS on domestic issues: They claimed to be for a prescription drug benefit, and against privatization of Social Security. The dem’s don’t have to change their positions so much as somehow show the public that the Republican’s aren’t really sincere about the domestic positions that they took to get elected. Which will be difficult, because the mass media are either wholely owned subsidiaries of the republican party (Talk radio), or so concerned with ‘balance’ that they quote politicians without providing the background information that would show when a politician is probably lying. The dem’s simply can’t continue to rely on the the media to fairly represent their positions, they don’t, and so far that’s cost the dems the presidency in 2000 and control of congress in 2002. The Republican’s control of the 4th estate is **the** problem for the Dems. Fix that, and the other problems go away because the Republicans actual domestic agenda is deeply unpopular, but they manages to run away from it come election time and the press don’t call ever call bullshit, or quote the Dem’s when they call bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2002, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-democrats-you-cant-beat-something-with-nothing/135528/169 "2002-11-12T21:48:01Z")
> [@](#): > > The Republican’s control of the 4th estate is the problem for the Dems. I don’t know about the whole 4th estate, but the Reublicans have definitely cornered the talk radio market. Democrats are badly in need of voices there. And I don’t mean a whiney, NPR-style voices, either. I mean voices that will go to war with the Rush Limbaughs of the worrld on **middle class issues**. (Middle class issues. Can’t emphasize that enough.) ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2002, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-democrats-you-cant-beat-something-with-nothing/135528/170 "2002-11-12T22:03:12Z")
One other thing (and at the risk of sounding really sexist): the Democrats need an infusion of testosterone. Why do Republicans routinely draw the majority of male votes while Democrats draw the majority of female votes? The Republican party has subtly (or not-so-subtly) positioned itself as the macho party. (This may be especially true in the South, but I get the feeling its a national phenomenon.) I think a strong regular-guy, male Democratic voice on radio would help immensely. Am I wrong to think this? ---
**Author:** ![Weird\_AL\_Einstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c67d28/32.png) [@Weird\_AL\_Einstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weird_AL_Einstein)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2002, 9:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-democrats-you-cant-beat-something-with-nothing/135528/171 "2002-11-13T09:20:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by spoke- \* > \*\*Reublicans have definitely cornered the talk radio market. Democrats are badly in need of voices there. And I don’t mean a whiney, NPR-style voices, either. I mean voices that will go to war with the Rush Limbaughs of the worrld on **middle class issues**. (Middle class issues. Can’t emphasize that enough.) \*\* What about that Texas guy, what’s his name? Hightower? ---
**Author:** ![Tejota](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/958977/32.png) [@Tejota](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tejota)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2002, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-democrats-you-cant-beat-something-with-nothing/135528/172 "2002-11-13T10:49:15Z")
> [@](#): > > What about that Texas guy, what’s his name? 🙂 my point exactly. The point man for the Republican disinformation machine doesn’t even need to use his last name anymore. It’s nice to have Carville out there too, but he’s just one voice in a sea of repulican spin. Even the mainstream media is a problem, because the vast majority of it is owned by a few large corporations. You won’t see too many reporters \effectively\ opposing the interests of their owners. Though they are encouraged to do so ineffectively because that helps perpetuate the ‘liberal media’ nonsense. Witness the trashing of Al Gore’s character by the media at all levels during the 2000 campaign. The man is practially a boy scout in real life but he got slandered by just about everyone. See back issues of the [Daily Howler](http://www.dailyhowler.com) for details. There’s no doubt that the mainstream press’s collusion with the Republican spin campaign cost Gore enough votes to make the Bush election theft possible. ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2002, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-democrats-you-cant-beat-something-with-nothing/135528/173 "2002-11-26T03:07:53Z")
So, how about [this idea](http://www.prospect.org/print/V13/22/reich-r.html) for the Dems from Robert Reich: Get rid of the repeal of the estate tax and replace it with a 2-year tax holiday on the payroll tax! > [@](#): > > The best way to get consumers to buy more is to put more money in their pockets. And the easiest way to do this is by cutting payroll taxes. There’s a bonus. Because employers will no longer have to pay their share, they’ll have an extra incentive to keep more people on their payrolls. The Bush estate tax cut, on the other hand, has virtually no stimulative effect on the economy. It gives more money to a handful of rich families that already spend as much as they want. And most of the estate tax cut won’t happen for years anyway. > > […] > > The choice between the two tax cuts also shows which party favors people who work for a living. The payroll tax penalizes work; cutting it rewards work. By contrast, the estate tax was enacted to prevent family dynasties whose heirs would never need to work. Cutting the estate tax rewards idleness. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2002, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-democrats-you-cant-beat-something-with-nothing/135528/174 "2002-11-26T03:48:54Z")
Nah, I hate one-time tax cuts even more than I hate the estate tax repeal. Taxes should be based on policy, not marketing. ---
**Author:** ![Tejota](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/958977/32.png) [@Tejota](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tejota)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2002, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-democrats-you-cant-beat-something-with-nothing/135528/175 "2002-11-26T11:19:11Z")
Except then the purpose of the tax rebate is to stimulate a sagging economy. In which case it **should** be only temporary. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2002, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-democrats-you-cant-beat-something-with-nothing/135528/176 "2002-11-26T23:12:02Z")
Name a tax increase supported by Democrats that was temporary. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2002, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-democrats-you-cant-beat-something-with-nothing/135528/177 "2002-11-26T23:13:21Z")
Sorry, I misread ‘cut’ for ‘rebate’. My bad. ---
**Author:** ![emarkp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3be4f8/32.png) [@emarkp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emarkp)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2002, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-democrats-you-cant-beat-something-with-nothing/135528/178 "2002-11-27T18:23:47Z")
Let me just get this straight **Tejota** , you’re saying that not only is there no liberal media bias, but that it’s in fact a conservative bias? ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2002, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-democrats-you-cant-beat-something-with-nothing/135528/179 "2002-12-03T04:30:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by emarkp \* > Let me just get this straight **Tejota** , you’re saying that not only is there no liberal media bias, but that it’s in fact a conservative bias? We’ve had this debate countless times here on the SDMB. Here are some links to sources that discuss aspects in which the media seems to be biased in the conservative direction, particularly on economic issues (as opposed to social issues like abortion and the like…where the bias in most educated circles, including here on the SDMB, tends to be in the liberal/libertarian direction): > **[Project Censored - The News that Didn't Make the News and Why](https://www.projectcensored.org/)** > > The News that Didn't Make the News and Why > **[FAIR](https://fair.org/)** > > FAIR is the national progressive media watchdog group, challenging corporate media bias, spin and misinformation. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-democrats-you-cant-beat-something-with-nothing/135528.md?page=8)