# Memo to web designers: Everybody hates Flash! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 18, 2003, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-web-designers-everybody-hates-flash/189365 "2003-07-18T11:28:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-web-designers-everybody-hates-flash/189365/21 "2003-07-18T12:41:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by kabbes \* > \*\*Tim Berners-Lee invented HTML for a _reason_. \*\* Nitpick: I think you meant to write Al Gore. ---
**Author:** ![kabbes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e99b99/32.png) [@kabbes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kabbes)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-web-designers-everybody-hates-flash/189365/22 "2003-07-18T12:41:57Z")
Progress is good. That Flash is progress is an extraordinarily debatable proposition. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-web-designers-everybody-hates-flash/189365/23 "2003-07-18T12:41:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Iteki \* > **Good god could you be more pretentious?** With you as a teacher, I’d say it’s possible. > [@](#): > > \*\*Progress is bad, innovation is baaaaad! \*\* Try again. The use of a file format that creates large files and constrains the way users can access your site is bad. You may have noticed some of the bad feeling it leads to, from some of the posts above. > [@](#): > > **Of course the information should be available in plain html, of course it should be available in formats that reach the majority of users. That should go without saying, but because of a lot of unserious web-devs and companies/orgs that don’t know their ass from their elbows, it doesn’t go without saying. These are the same people who do not dev their online presence in ways that are compatible with screen readers either.** And this disagrees with what has been said in the OP or those who agree with him…how exactly? ---
**Author:** ![kabbes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e99b99/32.png) [@kabbes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kabbes)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-web-designers-everybody-hates-flash/189365/24 "2003-07-18T12:44:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jjimm \* > \*\*Nitpick: I think you meant to write Al Gore. \*\* Damn you, and your little dawg too. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-web-designers-everybody-hates-flash/189365/25 "2003-07-18T12:45:09Z")
BTW, I think Flash is amazing _in the right context_. It certainly isn’t “shite”. It can handle vectors, sound, animation, interactivity, and all at amazingly narrow bandwidth. The problem is just that it’s often used incorrectly. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-web-designers-everybody-hates-flash/189365/26 "2003-07-18T12:49:23Z")
I’m having a vision. I can see **Iteki**. S/he’s doing something. . . working I think. Yes, working. I see letters and numbers on a. . . a screen it looks like. Yes. . . a screen, like a monitor. S/he’s working hard, yes very hard. Slaving away at a. . . something with keys. A keystone? No, not a keystone. It’s a keyboard-- yes. Typing at on a keyboard doing something creative-- ah creating a. . . sight? Designing glasses? No, not that kind of sight. S/he’s designing a. . . site! A site with devs? Divas? Wait a minute. . . It’s all becoming clear to me. \*_Iteki_ is designing a web site for deviants! Oh, it’s so beautiful! It’s got moving images of. . . midgets making it with monkeys covered in latex! And what, pray tell, do you think makes this possible, people? It’s the designing tool of the future! It’s Flash Fucks! [size]How many times will I have to download crap onto my computer so web designers can show how “cutting edge” they are?[/size] ---
**Author:** ![TheLoadedDog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/35a633/32.png) [@TheLoadedDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheLoadedDog)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-web-designers-everybody-hates-flash/189365/27 "2003-07-18T12:49:43Z")
Hmmmmm… what would Weebl say? ---
**Author:** ![Iteki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/eada6e/32.png) [@Iteki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iteki)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-web-designers-everybody-hates-flash/189365/28 "2003-07-18T12:54:29Z")
It doesn’t disagree with them. It agrees with them. The argument here is very much the “guns don’t kill people, people kill people” one. Yes there are shit implementations of Flash in inappropriate settings, badly done etc. This does not mean that as the OP states “everyone hates Flash”, or that Flash should be “immediatly and totally renounced”. However, I love that the web is not only informational, but also artistic and creative and emotional. I even have a love/hate relationship to the fact that anyone can make a site about anything they like and have it online. This is both a horrendous and wonderful thing. The problem isn’t with Flash, or with Javascript or with anything else, the problem to educate developers about usability, educating clients about using a reputable dev (not their son, cousin, aunty), and continuing to develop the search engines and indexes in order to keep the various sections clear of eachother (as is presently in development with separating blogs from other search types). ---
**Author:** ![jweb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/71c47a/32.png) [@jweb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jweb)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-web-designers-everybody-hates-flash/189365/29 "2003-07-18T12:56:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jjimm \* > \*\*And the attitude that says that web-users should be “competent” is living in denial. When I’m designing GUIs I always get “well the users should know how to configure that using the register - DUH” from developers. End users are thick, and if you’re trying to appeal to the widest possible market, then you have to appeal to the lowest common denominator. \*\* I’m reminded of the two basic rules of programming, as introduced to my by my first CompSci professor: Rule #1: The user is an idiot. (anything they can do wrong, they will do wrong, and you have to be able to handle it). Rule #2: Idiots can be amazingly resourceful (they will screw things up in ways that you wouldn’t think possible). ---
**Author:** ![FordPrefect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e99b99/32.png) [@FordPrefect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FordPrefect)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-web-designers-everybody-hates-flash/189365/30 "2003-07-18T13:15:11Z")
You can’t spell luser without user… I hate Flash. Hate it, hate it, hate it. It is too slow on dial-up and used far too often for all the wrong things. Now, I do admit that in some forms, such as videos it does deliver a decent animation in a pretty tight bandwidth in comparison to other methods. ---
**Author:** ![lawoot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/35a633/32.png) [@lawoot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lawoot)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-web-designers-everybody-hates-flash/189365/31 "2003-07-18T13:16:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Biggirl \* > **How many times will I have to download crap onto my computer so web designers can show how “cutting edge” they are?** Amen to that! ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-web-designers-everybody-hates-flash/189365/32 "2003-07-18T13:26:09Z")
Flash sucks. All this complaining about users being unable to use it and corporate designers using it badly does not change the fact that Flash has been responsible for more time wasted on the Web than any single app, and I’m including Javascript Web games (perhaps the lamest thing going). If it quacks like a duck and walks like a duck and flies like a duck, it’s a duck. Flash is a duck, and no protestation by web designers who think THEY can make it work doesn’t change the fact that Flash is a duck. HTML good. Flash bad. End of story. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-web-designers-everybody-hates-flash/189365/33 "2003-07-18T13:32:59Z")
Speaking on behalf of the millions of us who do not and according to the phone/cable co. WILL NOT for a couple more years have home access to anything above 56K, may I say anything that increases the download requirements is a pain in the arse. Flash in particular. I try to stay current but please, people, some minimal back/cross-compatibility will be appreciated. But more basically, and beyond issues of Flash or Shockwave or or yENC graphics, which have relatively straightforward (if sometimes locally unfeasible) solutions, my capital demand of with web/net designers/authors/correspondents is simple: Give me the \*&^%$#@ INFORMATION. _NOW._ It’s a communications system. That’s what this whole construct is for. Don’t make me go on a mystery hunt for the information and don’t waste my time with bells and whistles. I can take drugs if I want a wild sensory experience and I can drink if I want to feel stupid. _If_ the bells and whistles actually improve the effectiveness of the communication, knock yourself out but make sure you _assemble it right on your end to begin with_ so that the _end user_ can do something with it other than curse at the screen. If OTOH it’s just to show off how your programmer’s dick is bigger than the other protrammers’, cram it. Sideways. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-web-designers-everybody-hates-flash/189365/34 "2003-07-18T13:44:29Z")
[Good](http://www.ferryhalim.com/orisinal/) (perhaps “beautiful” might not be too strong an epithet here?) example of Flash use. [Crap](http://www.mcgdigital.com/) example of Flash use. ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-web-designers-everybody-hates-flash/189365/35 "2003-07-18T14:33:44Z")
I’m pretty much with \*\* jjimm \*\* on the use of Flash but I would also say I’ve always felt uncomfortable with the proprietary character of it. It’s not like Macromedia are trying to do a Bill Gates/Internet Explorer thing but . . but instinctively, I don’t like that it’s expensive enough to acquire (legitimately) so as to provide an economic barrier to entry. Hell, in all honesty, I hate that it isn’t Open Source. In mitigation though, Macromedia have in the past made Flash damn easy to crack. Maybe they recognise, unofficially, that barrier to entry that so disadvantages non-industrial world folks. Or maybe they don’t . . . ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-web-designers-everybody-hates-flash/189365/36 "2003-07-18T14:39:11Z")
I’m pretty much with \*\* jjimm \*\* on the use of Flash but I would also say I’ve always felt uncomfortable with the proprietary character of it. It’s not like Macromedia are trying to do a Bill Gates/Internet Explorer thing but . . but instinctively, I don’t like that it’s expensive enough to acquire (legitimately) so as to provide an economic barrier to entry. Hell, in all honesty, I hate that it isn’t Open Source. In mitigation though, Macromedia have in the past made Flash damn easy to crack. Maybe they recognise, unofficially, that barrier to entry that so disadvantages non-industrial world folks. Or maybe they don’t . . . ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-web-designers-everybody-hates-flash/189365/37 "2003-07-18T14:52:07Z")
Flash in the right context, is good-rathergood, as someone mentioned. However, I like to see a WARNING first. **Iketi** , I’m SO sorry that some of us are too poor to afford a cable modem or digital or whatever. Yes, us poor peons on dial up-what are we thinking? :rolleyes: I’m tired of having to wade through the crappy intros to get to the good stuff, and I’m especially tired of having it freeze up my damn computer. The same goes for midis and fancy schmancy little java applets. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-web-designers-everybody-hates-flash/189365/38 "2003-07-18T15:26:33Z")
Why exactly do people loathe flash so much? Long intros Non searchable Mysterymeat navagation. What else? ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-web-designers-everybody-hates-flash/189365/39 "2003-07-18T15:37:09Z")
Why exactly do people loathe flash so much? Long intros Non searchable Mysterymeat navagation. What else? ---
**Author:** ![japatlgt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df705f/32.png) [@japatlgt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/japatlgt)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-web-designers-everybody-hates-flash/189365/40 "2003-07-18T16:01:13Z")
Another ‘no’ vote. It’s ‘kewl’ the first few times you see it and then it’s a goddam waste of time. ‘Skip intro’ my eye! Back to you, nerds! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-web-designers-everybody-hates-flash/189365.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-web-designers-everybody-hates-flash/189365.md?page=3)