# Memo to web designers: Everybody hates Flash! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 18, 2003, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-web-designers-everybody-hates-flash/189365 "2003-07-18T11:28:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-web-designers-everybody-hates-flash/189365/41 "2003-07-18T16:05:56Z")
Alright so say we do away with long intros, then what? People still hating flash? ---
**Author:** ![dwc1970](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a183cd/32.png) [@dwc1970](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dwc1970)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-web-designers-everybody-hates-flash/189365/42 "2003-07-18T16:09:47Z")
How about the surprise sound effects you get when you least expect them? These annoy the hell out of me. ---
**Author:** ![Tanaqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3bc359/32.png) [@Tanaqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tanaqui)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-web-designers-everybody-hates-flash/189365/43 "2003-07-18T16:13:40Z")
> [@](#): > > Long intros > Non searchable > Mysterymeat navagation Well, as one of the 3 people left on the Internet with a truly shitty modem connection (rockin’ the 24.6kps), I would like to add: stupid-ass attempts at clever Flash menus take a fuckin’ long time to load. The clever bastards who invented pop-up flash websites in bizarre sizes will be the first against the wall when the revolution comes, mark my words. They’ll be there with the designers of most rock band websites, I suspect. Yes, Flash can be a useful tool. Of course this is true. But for the love of God, have some respect for the fucked-over portion of your clientele and give us a choice. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-web-designers-everybody-hates-flash/189365/44 "2003-07-18T16:23:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by World Eater \* > \*\*Alright so say we do away with long intros, then what? People still hating flash? \*\* Unless there’s a reason for a format designed for storyboard style animation and effects, yes. ---
**Author:** ![LordVor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/90ced4/32.png) [@LordVor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LordVor)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-web-designers-everybody-hates-flash/189365/45 "2003-07-18T16:27:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by World Eater \* > \*\*Why exactly do people loathe flash so much? > > Long intros > Non searchable > Mysterymeat navagation. > > What else? \*\* CPU hog! Yes, I want Macromedia to spend 70% of my uber-P4 system’s CPU cycles drawing animated ads. bog help me if I want to open 10 tabs. -lv ---
**Author:** ![slortar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6bbea6/32.png) [@slortar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slortar)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-web-designers-everybody-hates-flash/189365/46 "2003-07-18T16:35:24Z")
Really, flash reminds me of those holographic covers they made such a big deal about on some magazines back last century. I think I recall National Geographic having one of a skull or something. Whoo fucking hoo. The future is upon us. Buckle up the jetpack boys, we’re in for a ride. Where’s the content? Usually, whenever a web designer is telling me they’re going to add a lot of flash to their site, that’s like running a flag up the pole with the words “I’m a hack” written on it. Of course, they might actually be one of the rare few that can use flash effectively, but the odds aren’t looking good… [sub]…on the other hand, Strongbad is really, really cool…[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-web-designers-everybody-hates-flash/189365/47 "2003-07-18T17:06:41Z")
> [@](#): > > Unless there’s a reason for a format designed for storyboard style animation and effects, yes. Exactly. There is simply no need for it. Remember: the web is not television. Let me repeat that, in bold (Hell, if I could use the ol’ HTML \ command I’d do that too 🙂 ) - **The web is not television.** So don’t try and give us “linear” sites that do what you want them to. We are the users, and we want to define what information we want to see and when. I have seen some Flash menus that were quite subtly done, and were reasonably unobjectionable, but fail to see why you can’t just use plain old HTML. Anyway, my main point is, just give us the goddamn choice! And then check your logs and see which is more popular, the HTML version or the webdev-wet-dream Flash site. ---
**Author:** ![SmackFu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/53a042/32.png) [@SmackFu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmackFu)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-web-designers-everybody-hates-flash/189365/48 "2003-07-18T17:08:50Z")
I hate flash navigation because it breaks “Open in New Window” (shift-click) and “Open in New Tab” (CTRL-click). Since I use those almost exclusively while browsing, that’s a big thing to break. ---
**Author:** ![Hauky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/0ea827/32.png) [@Hauky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hauky)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-web-designers-everybody-hates-flash/189365/49 "2003-07-18T17:26:58Z")
Timeline of the progression of a high-school web-designer newbie, paraphrased: 1. “How do I do garish colors combinations?” 2. “How do I upload?” 3. “How do I make a menu on the left side?” 4. “How do I perform stunningly obnoxious Javascript tricks?” 5. “Hmm… maybe I should use a font besides Times New Roman…” 6. “BACKGROUND MUSIC??? EMBEDDED MP3S ARE COOOOL!!” 7. “How do I make an animated GIF?” 8. “I need a Flash intro and menu buttons _right now_, someone tell me how to pirate it.” 9. (3 years later) “How can I stop pissing off my users and actually stick to some semblance of standards?” Be a friend, just jump straight to step 9. oh, and Strongbad is overrated ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-web-designers-everybody-hates-flash/189365/50 "2003-07-18T17:55:15Z")
I find this very interesting. Assuming there is no long intro, (I’m not a fan of those either), and the navagation is laid out well, I don’t understand the beef here. In fact I thought the platform independence, and ability to have a visually appealing site across narrow bandwidth was much better to html. I figured multimedia type of websites would become the norm as we seem to be headed further towards an eyecandy filled future. ---
**Author:** ![Shalmanese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shalmanese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shalmanese)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-web-designers-everybody-hates-flash/189365/51 "2003-07-18T17:57:34Z")
Put plain and simply: There are some things plain HTML CANNOT do. Even a damn mouseover requires javascript. There are some things javascript cannot do or has to jump through hoops to do. Flash can do these things easier and less painfully. Thus, it fulfils a niche. When it goes out of it’s niche, its usually horrible, but in the same way that 4WD’s in rush hour traffic is horrible. But it can do some really, really cool things which no other language can do. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-web-designers-everybody-hates-flash/189365/52 "2003-07-18T18:22:04Z")
Another concurring opinion that Flash sucks. Not too fond of Java either. At a minimum, you should have a link to a pared-down version that doesn’t require the bells & whistles. HTML 1.1 rigid standards. If your site can’t load in Mozilla, Opera, iCab, OmniWeb, Navigator, and Internet Explorer, it needs fixin’. Unless you’ve got compellingly good reasons for using a feature that breaks it, your site ought to be browsable in Lynx, Netscape 3.0, AOL’s built-in browser, Mosaic, and anything else newer than 1995 that claims to render web pages. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-web-designers-everybody-hates-flash/189365/53 "2003-07-18T18:40:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Shalmanese \* > \*\*Put plain and simply: There are some things plain HTML CANNOT do. Even a damn mouseover requires javascript. There are some things javascript cannot do or has to jump through hoops to do. Flash can do these things easier and less painfully. Thus, it fulfils a niche. When it goes out of it’s niche, its usually horrible, but in the same way that 4WD’s in rush hour traffic is horrible. But it can do some really, really cool things which no other language can do. \*\* Yes but i wouldn’t consider a well designed site with some eye candy out of it’s niche. I’m just trying to determine where the hate is coming from, bad design or something unique to Flash. ---
**Author:** ![butter\_pie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/aca169/32.png) [@butter\_pie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/butter_pie)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-web-designers-everybody-hates-flash/189365/54 "2003-07-18T18:53:10Z")
Preach it, brotha. Another Flash hater here. Flash is good for cartoons, movies, stuff like that – features embedded in a regular HTML layout. Until it can be fitted to be accessible to the visually impaired and handicapped like regular HTML is (when properly done), I don’t like it. I don’t like it used for navigation because it breaks my “open in new tab” and regular surfing habits. I don’t like it because Flash navigation also usually makes noise, and if I’m wearing my headphones and trying to do something else when a webpage starts beeping or singing at me, I tend to get pissed. I don’t like it when I click on a menu and it starts swirling around on my screen. I don’t like it when I click to “enter” a site, and it spawns a new window sized to whatever specific crazy-ass dimensions the butthead designer wanted me to use, throwing off my lovely Mozilla experience and cluttering my computer desktop. No swirlies, no sound, no fucking popups… if you have 'em, I’m not staying on your site longer than it takes me to leave. I’ll click to watch a cartoon because I KNOW what I’m getting and that Flash serves extremely well. But for regular page layout, plain HTML please. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-web-designers-everybody-hates-flash/189365/55 "2003-07-18T19:05:36Z")
Hmmmm, I’m basically an armchair web designer, I show my friends how to make websites in flash or html, but never really build any myself. 😃 I always swore that flash, tempered with good web design, would be the wave of the future. I had no idea people hated it this much. What is this “open in a new tab”? Tab = window? Meaning you alt + tab between browsers? ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-web-designers-everybody-hates-flash/189365/56 "2003-07-18T20:19:05Z")
My site is entirely non-abusive HTML, with style sheets and PHP for fun. On the other hand, I just wrapped up a freelance assignment for a client where Javascript _had_ to be used – he wanted a pop-up navigation menu, and there was no way around it. I had to hold my nose while coding that. So where is the annoying Flash/JavaScript/applets/etc. coming from? My guess is with clueless PHB-style clients ordering around web developers who are unwilling or unable to point out the annoyance factor. ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-web-designers-everybody-hates-flash/189365/57 "2003-07-18T20:22:55Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by World Eater \* > I always swore that flash, tempered with good web design, would be the wave of the future. I had no idea people hated it this much._\* Yup. And I’m another who does. I’m on dial-up in my home office, and Flash files take a long time to download. That’s time I’m paying for. When such a file finally does download (assuming I waited for it; I often don’t and surf to someplace more my-connection-friendly), what do I get? Some kind of animation that doesn’t do a damn thing for the site itself. It’s usually gratuitous (at least in my experience), and all it has accomplished is to waste my time and money. Oh, and Flash designers who think it’s also cool to use sound effects and music and other noises? Don’t. They’re bad enough when I’m in my home office; they are _absolutely unacceptable_ when I am at a client’s. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-web-designers-everybody-hates-flash/189365/58 "2003-07-18T20:45:04Z")
Some things I don’t understand. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Spoons \* > \*\*I’m on dial-up in my home office, and Flash files take a long time to download. \*\* I can make a site entirely in flash that’s much smaller then an html site. So… long time to download = web designer has no idea what they’re doing. \*\* > [@](#): > > That’s time I’m paying for. When such a file finally does download (assuming I waited for it; I often don’t and surf to someplace more my-connection-friendly), what do I get? Some kind of animation that doesn’t do a damn thing for the site itself. It’s usually gratuitous (at least in my experience), and all it has accomplished is to waste my time and money.\*\* Ok, _any kind_ of website with a long ass intro = web designer has no idea what they’re doing. \*\* > [@](#): > > Oh, and Flash designers who think it’s also cool to use sound effects and music and other noises? Don’t. They’re bad enough when I’m in my home office; they are _absolutely unacceptable_ when I am at a client’s. \*\* You know what I’m going to say so I’ll spare you. 😛 I guess I’m just confused, it’s seems like all the beef could be attributed to crappy design, and has nothing to do with flash. ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-web-designers-everybody-hates-flash/189365/59 "2003-07-18T20:47:44Z")
Many sites assume you have flash and do not give you a way to enter the site if you can’t respond to the flash intro. I work on a non-Intel platform and my browser cannot run flash. So when I go to a site which requires you to click something in the flash app to continue, I can’t even enter the site. At a minimum put a normal HTML link on the page somewhere which lets people into your site. ---
**Author:** ![LordVor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/90ced4/32.png) [@LordVor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LordVor)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-web-designers-everybody-hates-flash/189365/60 "2003-07-18T20:50:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by World Eater \* > \*\*What is this “open in a new tab”? Tab = window? Meaning you alt + tab between browsers? \*\* No, not at all. Because when you open a new window, it’s nearly impossible to organize it with all the other windows open on your system, and it’s hard if you, say, have 10 windows open and efficiently switch from one window to another particular window. Also, opening in a new window takes you directly to that new window, so if you wanted to start loading, say, 10 threads from a notoriously slow message board, you’d have to open each in a new window, going back to your original window in between openings. Which is why Opera and Mozilla and Netscape (RIP) 7.x have a feature called “tabbed browsing”. Basically, if there’s a link on a page, I can middle-button click it and it will open that link in a tab on the same window…not sure how to describe how it looks, but under my personal toolbar, there’s a title area divided into the number of open tabs I have, each with the title of the webpage that it represents, and then the website in the “active” tab is below that. Middle-click creates a new tab, but does not take you straight into that tab, so you can wait until the tab finishes loading (which you can tell by looking at it’s title area) before switching to it. You can also create new tabs independantly, and it’s like starting with a new browser window. You can also, and this is really cool, load up the pages that you normally scan each morning, each page in it’s own tab, and then bookmark the set of tabs, so that when you hit the bookmark all of those sites load in their own tab. -lv [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-web-designers-everybody-hates-flash/189365.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-web-designers-everybody-hates-flash/189365.md?page=4)