# Memo to web designers: Everybody hates Flash! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 18, 2003, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-web-designers-everybody-hates-flash/189365 "2003-07-18T11:28:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-web-designers-everybody-hates-flash/189365/61 "2003-07-18T20:51:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by AHunter3 \* > \*\* > > Unless you’ve got compellingly good reasons for using a feature that breaks it, your site ought to be browsable in Lynx, Netscape 3.0, AOL’s built-in browser, Mosaic, and anything else newer than 1995 that claims to render web pages. \*\* Lynx? You’ve got to be on crack. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-web-designers-everybody-hates-flash/189365/62 "2003-07-18T20:52:23Z")
I agree with that, there should be both versions available if possible. I figure if you design shitty flash sites, you’ll design shitty html sites. Maybe flash gives you more power to abuse yourself, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-web-designers-everybody-hates-flash/189365/63 "2003-07-18T20:54:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Spoons \* > \*\*Yup. And I’m another who does. > > I’m on dial-up in my home office, and Flash files take a long time to download. That’s time I’m paying for. When such a file finally does download (assuming I waited for it; I often don’t and surf to someplace more my-connection-friendly), what do I get? Some kind of animation that doesn’t do a damn thing for the site itself. It’s usually gratuitous (at least in my experience), and all it has accomplished is to waste my time and money. > > Oh, and Flash designers who think it’s also cool to use sound effects and music and other noises? Don’t. They’re bad enough when I’m in my home office; they are _absolutely unacceptable_ when I am at a client’s. \*\* Are these on sites you are paying to visit? If not, did you send polite feedback to register your disapproval? If not(and I’m betting neither are the case), why the fuck are you whining? Turn off your speakers unless you have an active use for them, and fucking deal if you get to a site that has Flash. ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-web-designers-everybody-hates-flash/189365/64 "2003-07-18T20:57:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by World Eater \* > \*\* > > Ok, _any kind_ of website with a long ass intro = web designer has no idea what they’re doing. > > \*\* Now there is something I do agree with. A two minute opening intro is lame. In those cases, I have e-mailed the designer about the design flaw, and that I doubt I will be returning because of it. ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-web-designers-everybody-hates-flash/189365/65 "2003-07-18T21:03:57Z")
And when I am working on a Windows platform, I have flash disabled. So if I go to a site which requires flash for proper navigation (because of flash menus or whatever), I usually just go to a different site rather than download the flash plugin. So if a designer requires flash for their website, they should have a very good reason since they risk losing some business. There are many, many sites which will have similiar products or information presented in a non-flash format and I prefer to visit those. Of course I understand that there might be enough people who like the gee-whiz aspect of flash enough that they prefer sites which are flash enabled. So it could be that the flash sites get an increase in visitors over their non-flash competition. I don’t know if that’s actually the case, but they don’t get me as a visitor. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-web-designers-everybody-hates-flash/189365/66 "2003-07-18T21:22:05Z")
[Please enjoy your annoyingly and pointlessly overengineered Flash website of the day](http://www.geocities.com/thaigingeronline). My director sent it out as a link this morning, offering to buy lunch for the department. The website was so annoying I briefly considered declining the offer rather than navigate the animated menus and worrying that awful music would come back on. (Oh, yeah, warning, music will play on that site, so beware.) But then I remembered, Hey, free food, and I clenched my jaw and put up with it. Flash, I will admit, is not entirely evil; it does have a limited place on the web. A friend of mine set up a site advertising a theatrical production on which, after the poster was displayed for a few seconds, the letters in the title scooted around and had sex with each other. Funnier than hell. But an ordinary website, like I linked above? Those designers will be among the first against the wall when I assume control. ---
**Author:** ![BlackKnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eb8c5e/32.png) [@BlackKnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlackKnight)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-web-designers-everybody-hates-flash/189365/67 "2003-07-18T21:28:06Z")
Ok, I entirely agree with the anti-Flash sentiment here. But what’s this against JavaScript? I’ve always found JavaScript quite useful in many ways, for example, simple form validation. Barring obvious things like those mouse-trailing images that make me want to puke and scream at the same time, what sorts of JavaScript uses are being complained about? ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-web-designers-everybody-hates-flash/189365/68 "2003-07-18T21:28:30Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by filmore \* \*\*And when I am working on a Windows platform, I have flash disabled. \*\* Why? \*\* > [@](#): > > So if I go to a site which requires flash for proper navigation (because of flash menus or whatever), I usually just go to a different site rather than download the flash plugin. \*\* You only have to download it once. (yeah yeah I know updated version everytime - so you DL once a year) \*\* > [@](#): > > So if a designer requires flash for their website, they should have a very good reason since they risk losing some business. \*\* And you risk losing business too with your stubborn ways. \*\* > [@](#): > > There are many, many sites which will have similiar products or information presented in a non-flash format and I prefer to visit those.\*\* And of course you may be missing out on some bargains because you refuse to view the site. \*\* > [@](#): > > Of course I understand that there might be enough people who like the gee-whiz aspect of flash enough that they prefer sites which are flash enabled. So it could be that the flash sites get an increase in visitors over their non-flash competition. I don’t know if that’s actually the case, but they don’t get me as a visitor. \*\* Well perhaps you’re missing out. I’m not saying you should imbrace anything, but that sounds like boneheaded attitude to have in regards to your business. Obviously YMMV ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-web-designers-everybody-hates-flash/189365/69 "2003-07-18T21:30:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by filmore \* > \*\*And when I am working on a Windows platform, I have flash disabled. \*\* Why? \*\* > [@](#): > > So if I go to a site which requires flash for proper navigation (because of flash menus or whatever), I usually just go to a different site rather than download the flash plugin. \*\* You only have to download it once. (yeah yeah I know updated version everytime - so you DL once a year) \*\* > [@](#): > > So if a designer requires flash for their website, they should have a very good reason since they risk losing some business. \*\* And you risk losing business too with your stubborn ways. \*\* > [@](#): > > There are many, many sites which will have similiar products or information presented in a non-flash format and I prefer to visit those.\*\* And of course you may be missing out on some bargains because you refuse to view the site. \*\* > [@](#): > > Of course I understand that there might be enough people who like the gee-whiz aspect of flash enough that they prefer sites which are flash enabled. So it could be that the flash sites get an increase in visitors over their non-flash competition. I don’t know if that’s actually the case, but they don’t get me as a visitor. \*\* Well perhaps you’re missing out. I’m not saying you should imbrace anything, but that sounds like boneheaded attitude to have in regards to your business. Obviously YMMV ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-web-designers-everybody-hates-flash/189365/70 "2003-07-18T21:39:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Cervaise \* > \*\*Flash, I will admit, is not entirely evil; it does have a limited place on the web. \*\* Yeah that site blew, really really blew, but I don’t understand this limited place on the web crap. Point out a html site that you like (not literally, I don’t have the time), and someone could reconstruct it in flash. They could easily mimic the look and the navigation, so that means technical differences should start to become the reason why flash blows. This is interesting stuff, but time for happy hour. Have a good weekend! ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-web-designers-everybody-hates-flash/189365/71 "2003-07-18T21:58:47Z")
Flash can be good or bad depending on where it’s used. Strongbad = good. Stupid corporate intros = bad. Javascript, on the other hand, is the tool of the devil. Slows my browing to a freakin’ crawl. ---
**Author:** ![Iteki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/eada6e/32.png) [@Iteki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iteki)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-web-designers-everybody-hates-flash/189365/72 "2003-07-18T22:34:29Z")
**Biggirl** , ftr while I am fairly comfortable working in Flash, I have released a total of one site based in Flash. The project was a fully interactive educational campaign for Ericssons internal use and Flash was the obvious choice. The vast majority of other work I have released is fully compliant and accessible, playgrounds excluded. We can discuss details when you have gotten the hang of vB code. **Cervaise** , it’s a geocity site the odds of it being shite are extremely high no matter what it uses. Where do “designers” come into it? You won’t get any argument from me that there are way too many horrific implementations of Flash, I still however feel that it’s existance is justified. We aren’t talking about comet cursors or the blink tag, which fill no other purpose than to _ahem_ “decorate”. We are talking about a very powerful tool for use on the web that is being missued by troglodyte hacks. Hi to **World Eater** and **Mockingbird** , nice to see some friendly faces! ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-web-designers-everybody-hates-flash/189365/73 "2003-07-18T22:47:15Z")
You Flash guys don’t understand. Web users have zip, nada, absoutely NO responsibility to use, understand, or put up with Flash or Javascript code. If they don’t like a site for ANY reason, they can just go to another. You aren’t in control, the users are. You’re just lucky your PHBs don’t know how widely Flash is hated. I laugh when I see ads in the paper calling for webmasters with Flash capabilities. Sure sign of a company that doesn’t know what it’s doing on the Web. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-web-designers-everybody-hates-flash/189365/74 "2003-07-18T22:54:20Z")
Unfortunately, the troglodyte hacks outnumber the good designers by a wide margin. A letter to the bosses of corporate America: Your company’s website does not exist so to give your wife’s nephew a place to show off. It exists to make you lots of money so you can trade that wife in on a newer and prettier model. We both have an interest in me getting in and out of your website as quickly as possible. When I visit it I skip the intro whenever possible. I skip LOADING the intro whenever possible, too, despite my T1 line at work. If your designer did not provide me with that option I find another way in, and if I can’t I find somebody else to buy from. The same is true if I need to download the latest version of the software. My time is worth something, and I’d much rather waste it my own way than to watch Junior splooge all over the screen. Speed up your website and you will make more money and spend less, too. It is very much in your interest to do this. ---
**Author:** ![Geek\_Mecha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecae2f/32.png) [@Geek\_Mecha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Geek_Mecha)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-web-designers-everybody-hates-flash/189365/75 "2003-07-18T22:59:53Z")
Flash: Just another reason to make [Vincent Flanders](http://www.webpagesthatsuck) in charge of web design when I take over the world. All web designers will be forced to pass a competency and taste test before being allowed near an FTP program. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-web-designers-everybody-hates-flash/189365/76 "2003-07-18T23:13:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by LordVor \* > Which is why Opera and Mozilla and Netscape (RIP) 7.x have a feature called “tabbed browsing”. Basically, if there’s a link on a page, I can middle-button click it and it will open that link in a tab on the same window…not sure how to describe how it looks [Tabbed browsing in action](http://www.apple.com/safari/theater/tabs.html) (requires Quicktime). Very handy feature if you like to surf seven or eight pages at once, as I do. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Mockingbird_ > > > [@](#): > > > > _Originally posted by AHunter3_ > > Unless you’ve got compellingly good reasons for using a feature that breaks it, your site ought to be browsable in Lynx, Netscape 3.0, AOL’s built-in browser, Mosaic, and anything else newer than 1995 that claims to render web pages. > > Lynx? > You’ve got to be on crack. Tell that to all the blind and disabled web-surfers out there who use stripped-down or specialized browsers to ride the internet. Your site might not look gorgeous in Lynx, but it should at least be _useable._ > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by BlackKnight_ > Ok, I entirely agree with the anti-Flash sentiment here. But what’s this against JavaScript? Mostly because it’s overused and overabused, methinks. As you said, JavaScript can be leveraged for useful tasks, but the majority of sites that use JavaScript tend to use it for gee-whiz flash-bang effects, like the sidebar nav menu that _slowwwwwwwwwwly_ inches from the left and plops itself down in the middle of the article you’re reading. JavaScript also wreaks havoc with some browsers – I can’t go through a day without running into some JavaScript pop-up or banner ad that causes Internet Explorer 5 (on Windows NT) to freeze, crash, or go into a tailspin. ANd then the only recourse is to kill the task, restart IE, and try to find the page I was at before I was interrupted… :mad: [More rantings from me on web design.](http://www.digiserve.com/eescape/ramblings/essays/Simple-Spinning.html) ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-web-designers-everybody-hates-flash/189365/77 "2003-07-18T23:22:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by World Eater \* > **Point out a html site that you like (not literally, I don’t have the time), and someone could reconstruct it in flash. They could easily mimic the look and the navigation, so that means technical differences should start to become the reason why flash blows.** Including internal bookmarking, the lack of which is my single biggest complaint about flash-only sites? That’s the number-one headache: You can’t tell somebody, “Look here for a funny thing.” You have to say, “Look here, then click on the spinning baby head, wait for the carpet to unroll, click on the blue drawer, wait for the crickets to cover the island, click on the angry sun, wait for all the cars to move out of the parking lot, and then click on the pulsating Cookie Monster two from the left and four from the bottom. Or, not. The thing is funny, but not so funny it’s worth going through all that crap to look at it. If I could send you a direct link to the material, I would in a heartbeat. But I can’t. So never mind.” ---
**Author:** ![Mearl\_Dox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/65b543/32.png) [@Mearl\_Dox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mearl_Dox)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-web-designers-everybody-hates-flash/189365/78 "2003-07-18T23:28:31Z")
If it can be done easily in HTML, there’s no reason for flash other than to annoy people and to slow things down. And show off. Can’t forget the showing off aspect. I like some flash movies and flash games and things. But I hate it as a method of navigation. ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2003, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-web-designers-everybody-hates-flash/189365/79 "2003-07-19T00:42:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by London\_Calling \* > **I’m pretty much with \*\* jjimm \*\* on the use of Flash but I would also say I’ve always felt uncomfortable with the proprietary character of it. It’s not like Macromedia are trying to do a Bill Gates/Internet Explorer thing but . . but instinctively, I don’t like that it’s expensive enough to acquire (legitimately) so as to provide an economic barrier to entry. Hell, in all honesty, I hate that it isn’t Open Source.** You can create Flash files with [Swish](http://www.swishzone.com/), which is only $49. For the same price, you can also pick up an older version of Macromedia Flash from eBay or [half.com](http://half.com). ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2003, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-web-designers-everybody-hates-flash/189365/80 "2003-07-19T00:57:30Z")
Obviously, not _everybody_ hates Flash. 😛 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-web-designers-everybody-hates-flash/189365.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memo-to-web-designers-everybody-hates-flash/189365.md?page=5)