Hey, don’t knock animated gifs!
I hate embedded sound-it’s especially annoying when I’m already listening to something on my computer-it interupts it and plays simultatenously, and the effect is absolutely hideous.
Last year I was interviewing a candidate for a web developer position. Her portfolio included a business site she had developed - in flash. Complete with fancy animated splash screen. The interview went like this:
Me: Your design is attractive, but why did you use Flash?
Her: It’s really cool.
Me: What made you decide to put a splash screen for the web page?
Her: It looks really cool.
Me: Let me try again - What benefit does your splash screen offer the customer?
her: Uh… They’ll think the company is cool?
Me: What about customers that can’t support Flash?
Her: Wel, I designed a total non-Flash site too!
Me: Were you on contract?
Her: Yes.
Me: So the business will have to maintain a flash site as well as an HTML site, and you won’t be there to help them?
Her: Uh, I never thought about that.
Guess who didn’t get hired?
Web designers need to learn that they are designing web sites that other people are using for a purpose. People don’t go to Amazon.com because they want to see how cool Amazon’s web site is. They go there to buy books. An excellent web design is one in which people don’t think about the web site. They think about the information the web site is trying to impart.
Now, sometimes the graphical content IS the information. 3-D walkarounds of products, cartoons, whatever. If that’s the case, Flash is a fine tool.
But you know what? If I decide to go to GM’s web site, I’ve already made the decision to visit GM. I don’t need to watch a damned advertisement in Flash before I’m allowed to do what I want. I don’t want to hear a web site bleep and bloop at me. I don’t want fancy little spinning buttons, fly-out menus, and all the rest of that crap.
Have a look at the biggest, most popular web sites on the internet. MSN, Amazon, eBay, Google, etc. Not a one of them uses anything but nice, simple, flat pages. There may be millions of dollars of technology behind it, but the presentation to the user is straightforward.
The company I work for spent millions of dollars on a new intranet design. They called it ‘web city’, and the metaphor was a graphically designed ‘city’. There were actually images of buildings, and if you clicked on a building it would take you to a page with an image of an elevator, and you’d have to push the right button to get to the floor you wanted, etc. It was clever, attractive… And TOTALLY unusable. When I first saw it, I thought “Who was the moron who came up with this metaphor? I need a map to get around in a REAL city - why would I want that as my navigational metaphor?”
Drop the bells and whistles, and learn how to do real interaction design.
Well, I may be wrong here but I’m guessing that this is partly due to perception. That is, HTML sites download gradually. You see the text first, the outlines of images, etc. You can begin exploring the site before every last picture is downloaded. Unless I am very much mistaken, Flash doesn’t work that way. You’re basically stuck there, staring at a loading bar thingy or an empty page. Annoying as heck.
Heh - guilty as charged. When we first set up my wife’s art site under Geocities, we included music (because we could), my wife’s pic as a cursor (cool…), and I have tried to get a gimmick going where it would show some paintings every few seconds before changing.
Now we know better (www.lu-art.com). Still, geocities offers computer nitwits like us the change to make a decent website (after some experience) without even knowing the first thing about html.
Actually, I don’t but I can guess: “Spoons, what are you doing, surfing at a client’s? Wasting their time?”
Well, the fact is that it’s for business purposes. Often, I need to do research in the course of serving my client. I could call the Public Affairs or PR desks of the other companies from which I need information, but often, it’s easier to check out their web sites. (And if I do call, I’m often directed to their web sites anyway.) If those web sites contain Flash, it’s bad enough. But when they also contain sounds, it is worse.
I well recall the day that I surfed to one site, only to be greeted by a Flash animation that took a long time to download (there was no way around it, and I needed the information there), then heard a big booming voice saying “Hello and welcome to the XYZ Corp Web Site!” That went over real well, let me tell you.
(And the company whose site it was also got a nasty e-mail from me about that, to which they’ve never responded. Never mind; I’ve decided not to do business with them ever. See what else Flash can do for a company?)
World Eater, maybe you are one of the very few Web designers who can use Flash to actually add value to the sites you design. Maybe your sites load smoothly, they don’t cause long waits, and they don’t irritate users. They would communicate, which would be their purpose.
But it seems to me that you would be one of the few. The rest seem to be using it because it’s “kewl,” because they’re showing off, because some corporate hack who doesn’t know better has said, “Make it as ‘cutting edge’ as you can technically,” or for some other silly reason. Each time I, and some of the others here, just leave the site if we can when we encounter this dreck means that these web designers are not helping their clients communicate with their public, thus defeating the purpose of using the web as a communication tool.
Yes you can. But you’re not claiming Swish is Flash and you’re not claiming Flash v4 or v5 has the same functionality as Flash MX.
I guess what you’re probably saying is that those tools can get you started on the learning curve and even take you quite a distance, which is fine and I agree with you.
But the price and proprietary character of Flash is a barrier to entry if you want to exploit the cutting edge functionality, the stuff that seemingly impresses many buyers (“Hey, I haven’t seen that done before …”).
But I take your point.
No, often these are sites my clients might be doing business with. Guess who’s not going to be getting the business if I don’t like the site?
I have. Most often, my notes go unanswered. In fairness, I have received a few notes back saying that they had no idea that it was so difficult/irritating/etc. to access their site, and that they will look into possibly changing it in the future.
But mostly my notes go unanswered. Again, guess who’s not going to be getting the business?
Hmm…I should have taken that bet. Well, according to Hoyle, I’m not paying to view them, so strictly speaking, we might have to call it a draw. At any rate, as I’ve said, those sites often lose…my client’s business, that is.
You know, after surfing to, oh, 20 or 30 sites that greet me with blessed silence, I kind of forget that I have them on. It’s that one that is loud and irritating that makes me remember that they are on.
But of course, I’m just a lousy user, who really ought to know better. Yes, I agree fully that the web designer knows all and can, through Flash and the sites they design, tell me exactly how I should be using my computer. What I should be turning on and off on my machine in order to accommodate their sites. Now it makes sense. Hey, look at me; I’m fucking dealing!
You know, that’s an interesting approach–telling the prospect what they have to do to their own equipment before you even begin to pitch them on your company’s products and services. I’ve never tried that way of doing business; does it work well?
I’m looking at this whole thing from a business point of view (not gaming or chatting or other personal online uses). And in business, the customer or prospect may not always be right, but it sure pays to listen to them. And if they say that don’t want this stuff; well, maybe companies should listen and not force their customers and prospects to put up with it.
Flash is consistently, APPALLINGLY badly used.
It is a shame that it gets such a terrible name, because it can be extremely useful.
Three basic rules:
-
NEVER have a pop-up flash intro (have an optional - ie user has to click to activate - demo welcome pop-up flash sequence of shit if you must)
-
ALWAYS have an html version of your site as well
-
When using flash, use basic javascript to detect non-flash enabled browsers to provide non-flash alternatives (albeit animated gifs, jpegs whatever)
I mean are those three rules SO FUCKING HARD to deal with?
I love watching people get all irritated over things because there’s some fucking guy out there surfing the internet on a computer from 1923 and we have to make sure he can see our content.
Decent browsers are free. Flash makes smaller files, not larger ones. I don’t know what the hell people are doing but a .swf file is alway pretty damn small. I have a birthday cake animation on my computer for things like Livejournal. The animated gif I made out of the animated gif (I added the text “happy birthday” to the pic) has a filesize of over 300K. The corresponding swf file is 79K.
So I’m not sure what people mean by “take longer to download” but clearly they don’t mean “swf files are larger than images”.
I’ve written about a thousand responses to this, but they all boil down to: I like flash. I’m glad it is here, and I am sure it is here to stay. Good.
How would you know, with your head up your ass like that?
Ask a visually impaired person about text-only browsers sometime, chump.
My main problem with Flash is the back button. When on the web, I want to use the back button on my browser, not have to figure out where the back button on the worthless Flash file is. If I have to learn a totally different set of tools to use a site, which simply mirror the tools already on my Safari toolbar, the site can shove off.
Also, unless I’ve come to a sight to watch an animation or video, don’t pump sound through the web page! Dammit, i listen to music most of the time when I’m on the computer, and thus always have my speakers on. I don’t appreciate having sound blasted into my ears and either overloading the song I actually want to hear, or breaking the silence I have chosen to have.
HTML is good. I come to most sites to READ. Give me the information, and stay out of my way. Flash doesn’t stay out of my way.
Go fuck yourself, you self-righteous schmuck.
The visually impaired people I know use regular web browsers and a program called Jaws to read them.
So, get your head out of your own ass, and stop fucking assuming.
Seconded and carried.
Don’t stereotype. I have two very modern Macs, with a G5 coming, and a broadband connection, and I hate and loathe Flash.
**I’ve written about a thousand responses to this, but they all boil down to: I like flash. I’m glad it is here, and I am sure it is here to stay. Good. **
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Flash breaks the standard navigational rules of back/forward buttons, reload, etc. It makes it hard if not impossible to open links in new tabs. It is, therefore, crap.
Seems to boil down to this: Flash web designers and ignorant PHBs like Flash. Nobody else does.
Wrong again.
My question is, why should I like Flash, when it makes navigation harder, information more difficult to link to and the entire process of web browsing more involved and less consistent?
Put me down as “Flash suxxors”. Always and forever. I bet you Flash fans like embedded sound too.
I loathe people who use Flash for their website layout, or have a Flash intro page. It’s goddamn annoying. Flash should be used for making videos and games, like the stuff you see at Newgrounds.
Wrong. Get over yourself.
I’d say that World Eater and istara have the right of it: there is an awful lot of badly-made Flash out there. Much of it’s more complicated than it needs to be, uglier than it needs to be, and bigger than it needs to be. Flash is often used when HTML and/or Javascript would just as well, or better. Flash is often for things which are not necessary in any form.
But all of these things, from file size to confusing design, are more attributable to bad usage rather than a bad tool. And, as I’ve pointed out to notorious Flash-hater Jakob Nielsen (to no avail), Flash is just that: a tool. Many people use it badly… others use it well. The idea that there are more of the former than the latter is not the fault of the tool, it is the fault of those who choose to use it without understanding it fully.
Flash is capable of overcoming many of the criticisms people have levelled at it in these threads. Flash can be made to work with browser controls, and it can be made accessible to the visually handicapped as well, just as HTML can. Flash can be used to enhance, rather than detract from, the ability to navigate a site, using subtle audio or visual cues the HTML is not capable of to encourage good navigation. And a well-designed Flash file should be compact in download size… large files are usually a sign of bad design in the implementation phase.
The real problem I see with Flash is that it is capable of so much, that people tend to go overboard with it. It’s easy to do. I myself, when I use Flash (which is rarely), often find that I have to deliberately scale back the scope of a project to keep it clean and manageable. It’s easy to get caught up in “Wouldn’t it be cool if…” or “I know this really great effect…” It takes discipline to recognize that most of those ideas should be avoided, and the needs of the project should come first. This is the cardinal rule of good design, whether for the web or otherwise: what’s “cool” is usually unnecessary.
Flash can be beneficial to some projects, and for others it is indispensible. Most of the complaints against Flash, and the many bad examples of Flash that exist on the web today, are due mostly to bad usage rather than a bad tool. I learned from one of the best Flash practitioners I know of, and I was fortunate to do so.
Bear in mind, also, that there are many, many bad examples of HTML design out there as well. Does everyone remember Mahir? Well, this is a typical (though funny) example of the many horrible websites made with only HTML and images… they’re out there.
But, in your blanket criticisms, please remember to separate the user from the tool. The tool is just a computer program or a language. Thai Ginger (which is actually a pretty good restaurant in these parts) or Mahir is just a bad example of how to use it.
And a note for those who attempt to speak for Tim Berners-Lee and other gurus of the Web: the web is more than a source of information. True, that is why the web was begun, but it has become much more than that. The web is a very useful medium for information. It is also a very compelling medium for entertainment, and even artistic expression. In these things, Flash excels. A few examples of artistic and/or entertainment expression which are specific to the Web and are made possible either mostly or completely through Flash: Broken Saints, Ninjai: The Little Ninja, The Truth is What You Believe, and many of the Praystation archives.
The web is only an effective medium for information dissemination? Please. Open your eyes… it is capable of much more, thanks in part to the possibilities presented by Flash.
One final note… Mr2001 mentioned the unfortunate program Swish, which highlights most of the worst uses of Flash while skipping the good stuff. Swish, cheap as it is, is a program which actually encourages bad Flash usage because of its limitations. Anyone who’s interested in using Flash should avoid it. Seriously. And no, I don’t work for Macromedia.
Truth be told, though I’ve had reason to use Flash quite a bit for my day job, and I like it, I’ve found precious little reason to use it for my personal and freelance projects. I made a 9/11 tribute in Flash, I made a Flash intro for my wife’s 5th Grade Mars simulation (it really gets the kids jazzed about the project), and I made a small Flash interface for my wife’s CD portfolio. All uses appropriate to the goals of the project. My freelance web clients have asked about Flash, and I’ve actually discouraged it for them. A photographer, a limousine company, and a non-profit mass-transit effort, their websites do not need Flash, and so I’ve told them. They trust my judgment on it. So, though I could be considered a “Flash designer,” since I’ve designed Flash projects, I don’t see it as the end-all be-all of web design… far from it. Unfortunately, I know a number of people who think that Flash is the next stage. They’ll learn. Some of them already have.
Flash has its place, and it can be used well. In most cases, however, HTML works just fine.
That doesn’t make Flash “bad,” though. When people say Flash is bad, what they’re really saying is that some people have used Flash badly.