# Memogate: are CBS completely stupid **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 14, 2004, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memogate-are-cbs-completely-stupid/264414 "2004-09-14T14:09:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2004, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memogate-are-cbs-completely-stupid/264414/21 "2004-09-14T20:36:24Z")
**BobLibDem** , I think you’ll agree that the Washington Post likewise has a reputation for excellence in journalism. [They note problems with the documents, cited by their own experts.](http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A18982-2004Sep13?language=printer) They likewise note real issues with CBS News procedures for verifying them. Are you choosing to believe CBS because their story hurts Bush? Because the credibility of the network on this story is close to zero right now. And your credibility is at risk as long as you believe they’re infallible. ---
**Author:** ![Muad\_Dib](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/35a633/32.png) [@Muad\_Dib](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muad_Dib)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2004, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memogate-are-cbs-completely-stupid/264414/22 "2004-09-14T21:53:06Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > As I see it, you have three choices. > [ol][li]Produce some credible evidence that Bush failed to take his physical because he was abusing cocaine, [\*]Withdraw the smear, or[/li][li]Simply admit that you are no better than the worst of the Swift Boat veterans.[/ol]Which is it? [/li] > Regards, > Shodan I think that creating fake memos to help bring down a president and implicate a dead man in crimes he did not commit is actually much worse than the Swift Boat Veterans who may have an honest disagreement over what happened. ---
**Author:** ![Muad\_Dib](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/35a633/32.png) [@Muad\_Dib](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muad_Dib)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2004, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memogate-are-cbs-completely-stupid/264414/23 "2004-09-14T21:56:21Z")
Also, could someone please explain this “frequency Kenneth” thing? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2004, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memogate-are-cbs-completely-stupid/264414/24 "2004-09-14T22:20:26Z")
[The R.E.M. song.](http://ask.yahoo.com/ask/20010619.html) ---
**Author:** ![bughunter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/aeb1de/32.png) [@bughunter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bughunter)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2004, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memogate-are-cbs-completely-stupid/264414/25 "2004-09-14T22:21:55Z")
Umm… excuse me, but who has established that these documents are false? And that, if false, that CBS solicited their forgery? The best that can be established so far is that there is some doubt as to whether CBS exercised a proper degree of rigor in validating their authenticity, since there are some obvious features that should have given them pause before making them public. And, given the history of the Rove machine, I wouldn’t put it past him for being the ultimate origin of such forgeries, should they turn out to be forgeries. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2004, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memogate-are-cbs-completely-stupid/264414/26 "2004-09-14T22:25:15Z")
> [@Muad'Dib](#): > > Also, could someone please explain this “frequency Kenneth” thing? 😕 [Done and done.](http://ask.yahoo.com/ask/20010619.html) ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2004, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memogate-are-cbs-completely-stupid/264414/27 "2004-09-14T22:34:53Z")
> [@bughunter](#): > > And, given the history of the Rove machine, I wouldn’t put it past him for being the ultimate origin of such forgeries, should they turn out to be forgeries. Bingo! And \*\*bughunter \*\*wins the big tamale! ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2004, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memogate-are-cbs-completely-stupid/264414/28 "2004-09-14T22:55:14Z")
> [@bughunter](#): > > Umm… excuse me, but who has established that these documents are false? And that, if false, that CBS solicited their forgery? > > The best that can be established so far is that there is some doubt as to whether CBS exercised a proper degree of rigor in validating their authenticity, since there are some obvious features that should have given them pause before making them public. No one claims that CBS solicited a forgery, but that they were duped. The onus is on CBS to reveal exactly how they authenticated them. You’re right-- it is unlikely anyone can PROVE they are forgeries, but the evidence points in that direction. No other major news organization is backing CBS. The whole story stinks. > [@](#): > > And, given the history of the Rove machine, I wouldn’t put it past him for being the ultimate origin of such forgeries, should they turn out to be forgeries. When you can prove that, a Pulitzer Prize awaits. Until then, you’ll have to be satisfied with your tin foil hat. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2004, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memogate-are-cbs-completely-stupid/264414/29 "2004-09-14T23:05:55Z")
The longer this goes, the worse it gets for CBS. They had to get out the kleenex after thinking they had a smoking gun, but the damage to their reputation among all but hard-line lefties will be huge. ---
**Author:** ![JohnBckWLD](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d6d6ee/32.png) [@JohnBckWLD](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnBckWLD)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2004, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memogate-are-cbs-completely-stupid/264414/30 "2004-09-14T23:08:01Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Yep, that leftist media, home of Hannity, Scarborough, O’Reilly, and Limbaugh. Or to put it another way, as reported by John Tierney in the [NY Times on 8/1/04](http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/01/politics/campaign/01points.html?ex=1095307200&en=ccbb60361299530e&ei=5070) (registration required) with regards to the Time’s own private, informal poll amongst 153 journalists: > [@](#): > > When asked who would be a better president, the journalists from outside the Beltway picked Mr. Kerry 3 to 1, and the ones from Washington favored him 12 to 1. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2004, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memogate-are-cbs-completely-stupid/264414/31 "2004-09-15T00:09:47Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Now that these memos are brought to light by CBS, the right is back into whining about the evil evil liberal media. Yep, that leftist media, home of Hannity, Scarborough, O’Reilly, and Limbaugh. Well, that takes care of Fox and one radio station per market. What about CBS, ABC, NBC, CNN, MSNBC, The New York Times, The Washington Post, USA Today, et. al., ad infinitum, ad nauseum? There can be no question that a liberal media exists, if for no other reason than that you rarely hear the left complaining about it, and you hear the right constantly complaining about (or rather, illustrating) it. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2004, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memogate-are-cbs-completely-stupid/264414/32 "2004-09-15T00:23:01Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > When you can prove that, a Pulitzer Prize awaits. Until then, you’ll have to be satisfied with your tin foil hat. Surely, you must admit there is a tremendous gain for Rove to have made this doc then have it proven a forgery? It certainly doesn’t mean he did it, but I think this enormous motive at least takes the theory out of tin-foil hat territory and into something to at least consider. ---
**Author:** ![Muad\_Dib](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/35a633/32.png) [@Muad\_Dib](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muad_Dib)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2004, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memogate-are-cbs-completely-stupid/264414/33 "2004-09-15T00:32:00Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > [The R.E.M. song.](http://ask.yahoo.com/ask/20010619.html) > [@kaylasdad99](#): > > [Done and done.](http://ask.yahoo.com/ask/20010619.html) Groovy, thanks guys. > [@Revtim](#): > > Surely, you must admit there is a tremendous gain for Rove to have made this doc then have it proven a forgery? It certainly doesn’t mean he did it, but I think this enormous motive at least takes the theory out of tin-foil hat territory and into something to at least consider. This is getting sick. We really need a tin-foil-hat smilie ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2004, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memogate-are-cbs-completely-stupid/264414/34 "2004-09-15T00:40:02Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > Surely, you must admit there is a tremendous gain for Rove to have made this doc then have it proven a forgery? It certainly doesn’t mean he did it, but I think this enormous motive at least takes the theory out of tin-foil hat territory and into something to at least consider. Bush might gain a bit due this story being bogus, but he’d lose \*\*\*everything \*\*\*if Rove were caught doing it. I just don’t buy your argument for that reason. ---
**Author:** ![bughunter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/aeb1de/32.png) [@bughunter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bughunter)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2004, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memogate-are-cbs-completely-stupid/264414/35 "2004-09-15T00:42:04Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > Bingo! And \*\*bughunter \*\*wins the big tamale! Cool! 🆒 I love tamales. With enchilada sauce. And a nice cold beer. > [@John Mace](#): > > When you can prove that [Rove originated fake docs], a Pulitzer Prize awaits. Until then, you’ll have to be satisfied with your tin foil hat. Let’s see… where to start demonstrating your overreaction? 1. No one’s proven there’s fake documents. 2. I stated “I wouldn’t put it past him,” I made no claim. 3. It’s not like Rove never snuck into an opponents office, stole his letterhead, and faked an official campaign document which he then widely distributed as authentic, or that he never planted a bug in his own office and let the media conclude it was his opponent’s. Nope. [Not at all.](http://www.troho.com/issues/2003-10-14/psychopaths.html) You right-wing kool-aid addicts are rather quick on the draw with the “tinfoil hat” accusations. Go ahead. Keep using it… because real soon now, that reference is going to achieve the status of Godwin’s Law. > [@Muad'Dib](#): > > We really need a tin-foil-hat smilie I think that there’s already one that more accurately reflects your real sentiment… :wally ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2004, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memogate-are-cbs-completely-stupid/264414/36 "2004-09-15T00:59:22Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Bush might gain a bit due this story being bogus, but he’d lose \*\*\*everything \*\*\*if Rove were caught doing it. I just don’t buy your argument for that reason. True, he would have a lot to lose, but I think more than a bit to gain. In a lot of folks minds, this will illogically put to rest whatever doubts they had about Bush’s service. The docs were fake! Bush must have reported for service like he should have! It removes a key vulnerability. Again, I’m not saying Rove and Co did it, if I had to bet I 'd bet against it. But IHMO it’s not quite in Reynold’s Wrap land. Maybe near it. Disputed territory, at least. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2004, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memogate-are-cbs-completely-stupid/264414/37 "2004-09-15T01:07:52Z")
> [@bughunter](#): > > Let’s see… where to start demonstrating your overreaction? > > 1. No one’s proven there’s fake documents. Not likely ever to happen, but at this point that seems like the most reasonable conclusion. CBS has failed, and failed miserably, to prove that they are real. Do you understand that when someone makes a claim you dont get to say: Prove me false? > [@](#): > > 1. I stated “I wouldn’t put it past him,” I made no claim. Fine, but that’s a logical fallacy called weasle wording. You either think he did it and have some evidence, or your argument is nothing more than a smear. Since this is the Pit, I guess that’s OK. > [@](#): > > 1. It’s not like Rove never snuck into an opponents office, stole his letterhead, and faked an official campaign document which he then widely distributed as authentic, or that he never planted a bug in his own office and let the media conclude it was his opponent’s. Nope. [Not at all.](http://www.troho.com/issues/2003-10-14/psychopaths.html) Your link does not support any of your claims, but merely extends speculation about Rove with no proof. Care to tray again? > [@](#): > > You right-wing kool-aid addicts are rather quick on the draw with the “tinfoil hat” accusations. Go ahead. Keep using it… because real soon now, that reference is going to achieve the status of Godwin’s Law. Ah, I see you’re not only skilled in weasle wording, but _ad hominem_ as well! ---
**Author:** ![bughunter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/aeb1de/32.png) [@bughunter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bughunter)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2004, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memogate-are-cbs-completely-stupid/264414/38 "2004-09-15T01:19:58Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > ad hominem… logical fallacy… weasle wording… speculation Gee. It’s not like I [started](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5262420&postcount=13) [it](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5262420&postcount=18). Which was my point entirely. Way to demonstrate typical right-wing hypocritical displacement, John. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2004, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memogate-are-cbs-completely-stupid/264414/39 "2004-09-15T02:26:28Z")
> [@bughunter](#): > > Gee. It’s not like I [started](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5262420&postcount=13) [it](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5262420&postcount=18). > > Which was my point entirely. Way to demonstrate typical right-wing hypocritical displacement, John. All I can say is 😕😕😕 since there are no examples of any of those in that post. Anyway, as I said earlier, this is the Pit, so carry on with the baselss accusations. This is the place for it! ---
**Author:** ![ouryL](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ouryl/32/6067_2.png) [@ouryL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ouryL)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2004, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memogate-are-cbs-completely-stupid/264414/40 "2004-09-15T02:36:16Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > You might have been whooshed. Sometimes, people use bad grammar as a rhetorical device to amplify the topic of their assertion, particularly when the subject of the topic is pretentious. For example, when people say to me something like, “I’m here, aren’t I?”, I respond instantly, “Yes, and I are too!” He should have said,“I’m here, am’t I?”. :eek: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memogate-are-cbs-completely-stupid/264414.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/memogate-are-cbs-completely-stupid/264414.md?page=3)