# Men and the romance genre **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 2, 2015, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-and-the-romance-genre/708790 "2015-01-02T18:45:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![dracoi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@dracoi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dracoi)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2015, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-and-the-romance-genre/708790/41 "2015-01-02T21:13:31Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Have you ever read a “bodice ripper romance”? It is porn. A lot of very explicit sex. Not as many four letter words used to describe it, but it’s porn. No, my wife and I have had this discussion. Apparently, it’s only “porn” and only “bad” if it turns men on. By definition, anything a woman enjoys isn’t porn. If you say so, dear. _Women._ :rolleyes: But, no, you’re right. It’s also curious how a female-focused genre has the most permissive attitude about rape you’ll find anywhere. Seriously, UVA has nothing on “rape culture” compared to Harlequin. Well, except that the women in Harlequin books enjoy it. ---
**Author:** ![Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maggie_the_Ocelot)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2015, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-and-the-romance-genre/708790/42 "2015-01-02T21:19:10Z")
1. There isn’t nearly as much rape in modern (written since the '80s) romance novels as in the older ones. Back then, the heroine couldn’t be seen by the reader as virtuous if she willingly had premarital sex, even if with her On True Love. Current attitudes have changed, and thank gods that trope is going the way of the dodo. 2. Romance novel rape is almost always because the heroine is So Amazingly Beautiful that the men can’t help themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Asimovian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asimovian/32/172_2.png) [@Asimovian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asimovian)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2015, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-and-the-romance-genre/708790/43 "2015-01-02T21:20:56Z")
> [@Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](#): > > Question for the men who have been participating - what genre would you put Brokeback Mountain into? Because it is IMO totally a romance (though one that doesn’t end with the couple together.) I’m finding it hard to view it in any other light. ETA: Although if you’d asked me without the context of this thread, my answer probably would have just been “drama.” ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2015, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-and-the-romance-genre/708790/44 "2015-01-02T21:23:50Z")
> [@Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](#): > > Question for the men who have been participating - what genre would you put Brokeback Mountain into? Because it is IMO totally a romance (though one that doesn’t end with the couple together.) I guess it’s a romance. I saw it because of the controversy swirling around it and never thought of it (until now) as a romance. ETA: Asimovianly, I’d classify it as a controversial drama. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2015, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-and-the-romance-genre/708790/45 "2015-01-02T21:26:23Z")
> [@Hello\_Again](#): > > Also untrue. Romance novels normally devote 1/3 to 1/2 to the male POV. It would be _extremely_ unusual for a romance novel not to include substantial portions in the male POV. Mine is 50/50. And I identify more with the guy. Ah, well. Baby steps. Both of them have some serious issues, but their salvation isn’t in each other. [QUOTE=jsgoddess] Even in a book like The Lass Wore Black where the heroine was badly scarred in an accident and wears a veil that obscures her face, it turns out the hero saw her when she was younger and oh, she’s not quite as badly scarred as you might have thought. [/QUOTE] Not to Vorkosigan this thread to death, but that’s one thing I really liked about Elli Quinn starting in \*The Warrior’s Apprentice. \* She is horrifically disfigured by a plasma arc burn, requiring extensive reconstructive surgery to her face. Our hero, who is all too accustomed to being judged by his own bizarre appearance, never treats her with anything other than complete dignity and respect (and finances all of her medical costs.) Not because he was ever interested her romantically, but because she served him, he feels responsible for his recruits, and his behavior is the truest expression of who he is. It never even occurs to him that her value is based on her appearance. That she later falls in love with him makes perfect sense to me. [QUOTE=dracoi] No, my wife and I have had this discussion. Apparently, it’s only “porn” and only “bad” if it turns men on. By definition, anything a woman enjoys isn’t porn. [/QUOTE] That view is, of course, complete horseshit. [QUOTE=dracoi] But, no, you’re right. It’s also curious how a female-focused genre has the most permissive attitude about rape you’ll find anywhere. Seriously, UVA has nothing on “rape culture” compared to Harlequin. Well, except that the women in Harlequin books enjoy it. [/QUOTE] You can’t rape the willing. Seriously, though, rape in reality and rape in fantasy are two entirely different things. Engaging in fantasy is by definition a consensual experience. A sexually aggressive man is a hot fantasy because there is no threat whatsoever. Consent has already happened. ---
**Author:** ![LC\_Strawhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@LC\_Strawhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LC_Strawhouse)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2015, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-and-the-romance-genre/708790/46 "2015-01-02T21:27:08Z")
I’m fully supportive of this double standard, because it seems that even when men give their top-dollar best effort, they just can’t create romances that aren’t creepy monstrosities like [this](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betty_Blue). ---
**Author:** ![Asimovian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asimovian/32/172_2.png) [@Asimovian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asimovian)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2015, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-and-the-romance-genre/708790/47 "2015-01-02T21:31:54Z")
> [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > I’m fully supportive of this double standard, because it seems that even when men give their top-dollar best effort, they just can’t create romances that aren’t creepy monstrosities like [this](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betty_Blue). Jesus. I can’t unread that, can I? ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2015, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-and-the-romance-genre/708790/48 "2015-01-02T21:32:57Z")
> [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > I’m fully supportive of this double standard, because it seems that even when men give their top-dollar best effort, they just can’t create romances that aren’t creepy monstrosities like [this](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betty_Blue). > [@](#): > > Zorg narrates the story of their relationship; he describes Betty as “like a flower with translucent antennae and a mauve plastic heart”. 'Nuff said. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2015, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-and-the-romance-genre/708790/49 "2015-01-02T21:34:36Z")
> [@dracoi](#): > > No, my wife and I have had this discussion. Apparently, it’s only “porn” and only “bad” if it turns men on. By definition, anything a woman enjoys isn’t porn. FYI, I would have had a conversation about this, until I read this: > [@](#): > > If you say so, dear. _Women._ :rolleyes: And now I feel like it’s not worth the effort. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2015, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-and-the-romance-genre/708790/50 "2015-01-02T21:35:44Z")
> [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > I’m fully supportive of this double standard, because it seems that even when men give their top-dollar best effort, they just can’t create romances that aren’t creepy monstrosities like [this](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betty_Blue). I figure some of the romances out there are written by men using pen names. No reason they couldn’t do it just fine. ---
**Author:** ![LC\_Strawhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@LC\_Strawhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LC_Strawhouse)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2015, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-and-the-romance-genre/708790/51 "2015-01-02T21:46:34Z")
> [@Asimovian](#): > > Jesus. I can’t unread that, can I? You must understand that ze French are so, how you say, light-years ahead of the rest of us when it comes to _l’amour_. 😃 > [@jsgoddess](#): > > I figure some of the romances out there are written by men using pen names. No reason they couldn’t do it just fine. Ehh… I’d have to see it to believe it. I can’t think of a single male-written romance that isn’t adolescent junk or a one-dimensional subplot to some other story. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2015, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-and-the-romance-genre/708790/52 "2015-01-02T21:50:02Z")
> [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > You must understand that ze French are so, how you say, light-years ahead of the rest of us when it comes to _l’amour_. 😃 > Ehh… I’d have to see it to believe it. I can’t think of a single male-written romance that isn’t adolescent junk or a one-dimensional subplot to some other story. I thought there was a pretty good romantic subplot in _John Dies at the End_. Which was written by a guy. It wasn’t the main part of the story but I wouldn’t call it one-dimensional, either (it’s been quite some time since I’ve read this book.) ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2015, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-and-the-romance-genre/708790/53 "2015-01-02T22:15:34Z")
> [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > Ehh… I’d have to see it to believe it. I can’t think of a single male-written romance that isn’t adolescent junk or a one-dimensional subplot to some other story. I don’t know exactly what you consider romance. Does Anthony Trollope count? Nicholas Sparks? (I’ve read the former, not the latter.) I found a man who writes for Harlequin. I’ve never read his work (I haven’t read a Harlequin in a hundred years), but there he is: [Amazon.com: Wayne Jordan: books, biography, latest update](http://www.amazon.com/Wayne-Jordan/e/B001IO9QTI/ref=ntt_athr_dp_pel_1) ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2015, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-and-the-romance-genre/708790/54 "2015-01-02T22:20:51Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > I don’t know exactly what you consider romance. Does Anthony Trollope count? Nicholas Sparks? (I’ve read the former, not the latter.) > > I found a man who writes for Harlequin. I’ve never read his work (I haven’t read a Harlequin in a hundred years), but there he is: [Amazon.com: Wayne Jordan: books, biography, latest update](http://www.amazon.com/Wayne-Jordan/e/B001IO9QTI/ref=ntt_athr_dp_pel_1) OMG, he lives on Barbados? That’s fantastic. ---
**Author:** ![BlackKnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eb8c5e/32.png) [@BlackKnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlackKnight)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2015, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-and-the-romance-genre/708790/55 "2015-01-02T22:31:48Z")
> [@Hello Again](#): > > The simple answer is a 100% social-cultural one: hetero men don’t read romance novels because they don’t need to experience simulated nurturing or appreciation. They’re nurtured by the women in their lives and their contributions are generally recognized as valuable in the real world. If this were true, you’d expect to find that: (a) hetero men who don’t have nurturing people in their lives are more likely to read romance novels; (b) women who have a lot of nurturing tend not to read romance novels. I think both of these are almost certainly false, but I’m open to being convinced otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2015, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-and-the-romance-genre/708790/56 "2015-01-02T22:36:17Z")
No cite, but I recall Mills & Boon years ago reporting that some of their best romance novelists were men. ---
**Author:** ![dracoi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@dracoi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dracoi)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2015, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-and-the-romance-genre/708790/57 "2015-01-02T23:31:47Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > That view is, of course, complete horseshit. Yes… well, there seems to be no talking her out of it. She wouldn’t exactly phrase it the way I have, but if you have her create a list of porn/not-porn, you’d see three lines up with three categories 1) no sexual content anyway. 2) sexual content for men (porn) 3) sexual content for women (still not porn). > [@](#): > > You can’t rape the willing. Seriously, though, rape in reality and rape in fantasy are two entirely different things. Engaging in fantasy is by definition a consensual experience. A sexually aggressive man is a hot fantasy because there is no threat whatsoever. Consent has already happened. Yeah, I agree, but it still surprises the heck out of me to see what some people are reading. My one real experience with a bodice-ripper was in high school. I was writing a lot of fiction back then (mostly for my own enjoyment; much of it never got read by anyone) and my girlfriend and her friends talked me into writing something for them. So I borrowed one of her books to use so that I knew what they were looking for style and genre wise. In this particular book, the girl loses her virginity in a scene where she runs away from the guy, is chased down into the forest, where he shoves her against a tree, covers her mouth so she can’t protest and has his way with her. After that she has an interior monologue that amounts to “I’m so glad he didn’t listen to me. I only said no because society says I should. Now that I’ve had sex for the first time, I’m a real woman and I can give myself to him fully!” And this was a book written under a female-sounding name published in the 80’s or 90’s. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2015, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-and-the-romance-genre/708790/58 "2015-01-02T23:43:45Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > OMG, he lives on Barbados? That’s fantastic. According to the internet (which is NEVER WRONG!) Jennifer Wilde is the pen name of a [man named Tom E. Huff](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_E._Huff). I think I’ve read at least one of these: [http://www.amazon.com/Jennifer-Wilde/e/B000APJBL4/ref=ntt\_athr\_dp\_pel\_1](http://www.amazon.com/Jennifer-Wilde/e/B000APJBL4/ref=ntt_athr_dp_pel_1) And Leigh Greenwood is an androgynously named [man](http://www.leigh-greenwood.com/page/about_author.htm). He says so right on his page. His books are about cowboys: [http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=ntt\_athr\_dp\_sr\_1?\_encoding=UTF8&field-author=Leigh%20Greenwood&search-alias=digital-text&sort=relevancerank](http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=ntt_athr_dp_sr_1?_encoding=UTF8&field-author=Leigh%20Greenwood&search-alias=digital-text&sort=relevancerank) ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2015, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-and-the-romance-genre/708790/59 "2015-01-02T23:56:46Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > The point is that it includes elements (the “romance” part of the title) that make it attractive to women. Those elements are absent from male-oriented porn, which is why male-oriented porn is never described in terms of its romance elements. > > “Love’s Stormy Surrender” is a different kind of production from “Anal Schoolgirls”. 50 shades of Grey is generally considered a “romance”\*, so are Ann Rices dom/sub porn books: Under the pseudonym A. N. Roquelaure The Claiming of Sleeping Beauty (1983) Beauty’s Punishment (1984) Beauty’s Release (1985) If you have never read those you are in for a “treat”. :eek:They would make the Marquis de Sade blush and take note. (Sometimes “erotica” but they are meant for females). ---
**Author:** ![Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maggie_the_Ocelot)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-and-the-romance-genre/708790/60 "2015-01-03T00:18:45Z")
I wouldn’t consider any of those titles to be romance, or anything but porn. “Erotica” = Porn, but written for women. I have an online friend who writes erotica (both m/m & m/f) professionally, and who sidelines as an editor for other erotic authors. She says that, as a woman who reads and writes entirely in that sub genre, it caused her major culture shock when a male author of stroke fics sent his work in for editing. She had to work really hard to refrain from telling him too much that he needed more characterization and backstory on the characters. As someone who likes both stroke stories (written for a male audience) and erotica (written for a female audience), they are VERY different. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-and-the-romance-genre/708790.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-and-the-romance-genre/708790.md?page=4)