# Men and the romance genre **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 2, 2015, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-and-the-romance-genre/708790 "2015-01-02T18:45:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2015, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-and-the-romance-genre/708790/101 "2015-01-04T00:02:27Z")
> [@Barrett\_Bonden](#): > > I have also read that in general, males tend not to read fiction in which the POV protagonist is a female (the old “Why isn’t Hermione the hero?” problem). Books with female POV protagonists, from classics like Jane Austen and _Jane Eyre_ through more recent fiction like _The Hunger Games_ or _The Fault In Our Stars_, do have male readers (though they’re probably in the minority)—I, a male, have read all of these. But when you’re talking about “romance fiction” in the narrow, genre sense, you’re talking about books that are specifically designed to arouse certain feelings in the reader. The reader is supposed to identify with the viewpoint protagonist and vicariously experience what she experiences, and if “what she experiences” is mainly intended to be feelings of love, lust, infatuation, sexual desire, etc. toward a male character, that’s not going to appeal to heterosexual male readers. ---
**Author:** ![Barrett\_Bonden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5e9695/32.png) [@Barrett\_Bonden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barrett_Bonden)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2015, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-and-the-romance-genre/708790/102 "2015-01-04T00:17:27Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Books with female POV protagonists, from classics like Jane Austen and _Jane Eyre_ through more recent fiction like _The Hunger Games_ or _The Fault In Our Stars_, do have male readers (though they’re probably in the minority)—I, a male, have read all of these. > > But when you’re talking about “romance fiction” in the narrow, genre sense, you’re talking about books that are specifically designed to arouse certain feelings in the reader. The reader is supposed to identify with the viewpoint protagonist and vicariously experience what she experiences, and if “what she experiences” is mainly intended to be feelings of love, lust, infatuation, sexual desire, etc. toward a male character, that’s not going to appeal to heterosexual male readers. I specifically avoided trying to define the genre because it’s tricky to do. For instance, a book mainly about the female protagonist’s feelings of “love, lust, infatuation, sexual desire, etc. toward a male character” would be pretty boring to me and I wouldn’t read it. And yet, I read books that folks would probably call “romances” and I enjoy them. ---
**Author:** ![Barrett\_Bonden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5e9695/32.png) [@Barrett\_Bonden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barrett_Bonden)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2015, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-and-the-romance-genre/708790/103 "2015-01-04T00:28:57Z")
Regarding male authors of romances, Laura London was a pen name for the husband and wife writing team of Tom and Sharon Curtis. Jude Morgan is a male author who pens elegant romances. Oh, and back in the day, Fabio took a break from modeling for the covers and wrote a handful of bodice rippers. Ah, yes. There were [pirates](http://www.amazon.com/Pirate-Fabio/dp/0380770466/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1420331016&sr=1-4&keywords=fabio). (He did have a female co-author.) Citing Jude Morgan and Fabio in the same breath is very disturbing. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2015, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-and-the-romance-genre/708790/104 "2015-01-04T01:49:57Z")
> [@Lemmytheseal2](#): > > So romance fiction is either a very unrealistic depiction, and thus a terrible way to learn about such things, or it’s (within reason) a veritable instruction manual to what women want. > > Which is correct, or is the truth somewhere in between? > > I continually realize the extent to which my notions of human relationships were formed by what art I was watching, reading, or listening to, since I rarely talked about it with anyone, nor observed much of that sort of thing in real life. That was not good for me. I agree with \*\*Spice Weasel \*\*that the outcome is usually a healthy one – two people truly in love who settle down and make a life together, usually with children. It’s the getting there that is artificial. Both romance novels and a lot of romcoms start with the eventual lovers hating one another or having resistance to being together. This might make you think that when a woman says no, you should just keep trying because deep down she wants you. Or you should use a little bit of force to get her to make out with you because she just needs to get over her inhibitions and realize what she really feels. Can you see where this could go wrong? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2015, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-and-the-romance-genre/708790/105 "2015-01-04T05:15:37Z")
> [@Barrett\_Bonden](#): > > I have also read that in general, males tend not to read fiction in which the POV protagonist is a female (the old “Why isn’t Hermione the hero?” problem). This plain isnt true. Heck half of Heinlein’s stuff has a female protagonist. ---
**Author:** ![Lemmytheseal2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/82dd89/32.png) [@Lemmytheseal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemmytheseal2)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2015, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-and-the-romance-genre/708790/106 "2015-01-04T05:31:53Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > It’s probably somewhere in between. The tropes themselves are probably not the most realistic parts to look at - the men usually start off perceived as bastards until the women melt their cold hearts, the guys could be rapey, the set-up between the characters adversarial. That stuff is pretty much just a plot mechanism, elements that exist to create tension. It is almost impossible to write a romance without employing some kind of trope. It does not mean women want rapey, coldhearted men, it means the story has to give you a reason why the two _might not_ get together. If everything were perfect from the beginning there wouldn’t be a conflict. > > What might be more insightful as to ‘‘what women want’’ is how these issues resolve themselves. No matter what plot devices and tropes are used, the resolution is pretty consistent. Usually the conflict is solved through communication, men showing a willingness to be vulnerable, lovers meeting one another’s emotional needs, willingness to set aside personal ambition for the sake of the other person, and the decision to make a long-term commitment. I think it’s fair to say that a substantial portion of women actually want those things. Yeah, unfortunately I suppose, I already have that part covered, to the best of my knowledge. I didn’t think it made sense for her to recommend such books in order to learn about the “getting there.” > [@gigi](#): > > I agree with \*\*Spice Weasel \*\*that the outcome is usually a healthy one – two people truly in love who settle down and make a life together, usually with children. It’s the getting there that is artificial. Both romance novels and a lot of romcoms start with the eventual lovers hating one another or having resistance to being together. This might make you think that when a woman says no, you should just keep trying because deep down she wants you. Or you should use a little bit of force to get her to make out with you because she just needs to get over her inhibitions and realize what she really feels. Can you see where this could go wrong? Yes, I do see where that can go wrong. In the case of the former scenario, it also meshes with cultural messages about how “you can do/get/be anything if you only try/want it hard enough/remain persistent…” I think that a reason that many people don’t seem to grasp that someone is “not that into them” is because if one has rarely or never experienced what it’s like when someone is “that into them”, one doesn’t know that such a response from someone is even a possibility, and may be unable to recognize it. I don’t imagine romance stories accurately depict people without anyone into them, and/or people who are unable to perceive that interest when it does exist. ---
**Author:** ![gallows\_fodder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8c91f0/32.png) [@gallows\_fodder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gallows_fodder)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2015, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-and-the-romance-genre/708790/107 "2015-01-04T06:07:41Z")
> [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > Ehh… I’d have to see it to believe it. I can’t think of a single male-written romance that isn’t adolescent junk or a one-dimensional subplot to some other story. So, the conversation has moved on but I can’t pass up an opportunity to recommend the author Madeleine Brent, aka Peter O’Donnell. “She” wrote (chaste) romance novels, my favorite being **Moonraker’s Bride** , which is set in China and England during the Boxer Rebellion and is actually, legitimately, really good. One of the reason it’s so good is how real and likable the main female character is, and I was positively staggered to learn that Madeleine Brent was really a man, because how could a man have written the inner life of a girl so believably and well?? Will wonders never cease. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2015, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-and-the-romance-genre/708790/108 "2015-01-04T06:47:49Z")
> [@dracoi](#): > > Romance novels are the idealized fantasy that women wish they could get in real life. It’s like they wrote an instruction book for you. Who in their right mind would ignore it? Even if that were true, grabbing one and assuming it holds true for every woman is akin to grabbing the manual for a particular dryer and assuming it holds true for every dryer there is. > [@DrDeth](#): > > This plain isnt true. Heck half of Heinlein’s stuff has a female protagonist. None of them has ever had a period, though. Not a particularly good example. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2015, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-and-the-romance-genre/708790/109 "2015-01-04T11:28:28Z")
One of the biggest differences between me and “men” (i.e., most other males) is this sex vs romance thing. I had a rough time of it between ages 12 and 21 because I was oriented at least as much towards romance as towards sex, at least as much as the girls were, that is, but it was difficult and complicated to operate against a backdrop in which it was assumed that malebodied people wanted sex in what was assumed to be an exploitative manner. I very actively wanted a girlfriend, wanted to fall in love, although yeah definitely I was as intrigued and fascinated by sex as any other young person. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2015, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-and-the-romance-genre/708790/110 "2015-01-04T13:37:25Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > This plain isnt true. Heck half of Heinlein’s stuff has a female protagonist. And he’s so misogynistic about it that at least one guy I know has quit reading the books out of disgust. Seriously, this is the _worst_ example you could have used. Heinlein’s grasp of women is laughably bad. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2015, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-and-the-romance-genre/708790/111 "2015-01-04T13:38:34Z")
> [@gallows\_fodder](#): > > So, the conversation has moved on but I can’t pass up an opportunity to recommend the author Madeleine Brent, aka Peter O’Donnell. “She” wrote (chaste) romance novels, my favorite being **Moonraker’s Bride** , which is set in China and England during the Boxer Rebellion and is actually, legitimately, really good. One of the reason it’s so good is how real and likable the main female character is, and I was positively staggered to learn that Madeleine Brent was really a man, because how could a man have written the inner life of a girl so believably and well?? Will wonders never cease. Thanks for sharing this. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2015, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-and-the-romance-genre/708790/112 "2015-01-04T14:14:37Z")
> [@dracoi](#): > > Romance novels are the idealized fantasy that women wish they could get in real life. It’s like they wrote an instruction book for you. Who in their right mind would ignore it? A lot of qualities are unattainable, though. A short man can’t make himself tall. A poor man can’t make himself earn millions. An ugly man can’t make himself handsome. A man who’s not the ‘right race’ can’t make himself the ‘right race.’ ---
**Author:** ![vontsira](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/51bf81/32.png) [@vontsira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vontsira)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2015, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-and-the-romance-genre/708790/113 "2015-01-04T14:54:35Z")
> [@Barrett\_Bonden](#): > > Regarding male authors of romances, Laura London was a pen name for the husband and wife writing team of Tom and Sharon Curtis. Jude Morgan is a male author who pens elegant romances. Oh, and back in the day, Fabio took a break from modeling for the covers and wrote a handful of bodice rippers. Ah, yes. There were [pirates](http://www.amazon.com/Pirate-Fabio/dp/0380770466/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1420331016&sr=1-4&keywords=fabio). (He did have a female co-author.) > > Citing Jude Morgan and Fabio in the same breath is very disturbing. > [@gallows\_fodder](#): > > … I can’t pass up an opportunity to recommend the author Madeleine Brent, aka Peter O’Donnell. “She” wrote (chaste) romance novels, my favorite being **Moonraker’s Bride** , which is set in China and England during the Boxer Rebellion and is actually, legitimately, really good. One of the reason it’s so good is how real and likable the main female character is, and I was positively staggered to learn that Madeleine Brent was really a man, because how could a man have written the inner life of a girl so believably and well?? Will wonders never cease. Adding my mite, as a heterosexual male who reads and enjoys the occasional romance novel: I’m aware of anyway one male British author, romance-writing under a female pseudonym, a perfectly fine “mainstream” romance novel (set just-post-WWI) by whom I pretty-well enjoyed (unfortunately I forget both the title, and the author’s name – Louise something??). Brought to mind by the discussion of male authors who attempt female POV characters and the relative rarity of same: another British male-author-writing-under-female-pseudonym re whom that situation strikes me as particularly quirky, is one Roy Clews: a former Royal Marine Commando, and French Foreign Legionnaire, who however chooses to write fiction under the pen-name of Sara Fraser. This bod’s novels are historical, rather than romance as such: they are numerous, all set in a particular small area of the English Midlands in the early 19th century. I find them seemingly knowledgeably researched, and good reads; if occasionally quite bizarre. His most popular cycle has a sympathetic and believable female protagonist (third-person narrative) – remarkably emancipated and daring for an 1830s Englishwoman of working-class background. Her love-life does feature in the novel cycle; but basically social conditions and strife, are what is to the fore there. Sara Fraser has written other novels in the same milieu, with male central characters. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2015, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-and-the-romance-genre/708790/114 "2015-01-05T01:24:46Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Even if that were true, grabbing one and assuming it holds true for every woman is akin to grabbing the manual for a particular dryer and assuming it holds true for every dryer there is. Never worked on a dryer, eh? Not a lot to them and if you have the basics and don’t mind getting electrocuted a little any repair manual will do. As for their operation, the “instructions” are by the knobs to set the time and temperature and “push to start” is pretty self-explanatory. Relationships are harder. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2015, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-and-the-romance-genre/708790/115 "2015-01-05T02:24:36Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > Never worked on a dryer, eh? Not a lot to them and if you have the basics and don’t mind getting electrocuted a little any repair manual will do. As for their operation, the “instructions” are by the knobs to set the time and temperature and “push to start” is pretty self-explanatory. > > Relationships are harder. Someone has to make the obvious connection here between bodice-ripper romance novels and the dryer. What the hell, I’ll do it. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2015, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-and-the-romance-genre/708790/116 "2015-01-05T05:05:49Z")
I didn’t read all the replies, so what I say has likely already been said before. For men I think porn and music are the main outlets for romance (and I wouldn’t call porn romantic). Many popular songs written by men that men like are about love, loss and relationships. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2015, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-and-the-romance-genre/708790/117 "2015-01-05T05:10:19Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > Never worked on a dryer, eh? Not a lot to them and if you have the basics and don’t mind getting electrocuted a little any repair manual will do. As for their operation, the “instructions” are by the knobs to set the time and temperature and “push to start” is pretty self-explanatory. > > Relationships are harder. The old dryer in my apartment building did not have a water bottle that needed to be emptied. The new one does. The “warning” light only says “warning”. Reading the old manual wouldn’t indicate that it comes up if: 1. the lint filter needs to be emptied, 2. the water bottle needs to be emptied, 3. the condenser needs to be cleaned. In fact, the current one’s manual also does not indicate that, once the light comes on, it won’t go off until all three tasks have been done. Figuring so took someone who couldn’t even RTFM in the original but who had worked on a dryer before (I can also change the toner in photocopiers, resize photographs and put chains on tyres). ---
**Author:** ![Jeff\_Lichtman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jeff_lichtman/32/1531_2.png) [@Jeff\_Lichtman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jeff_Lichtman)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2015, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-and-the-romance-genre/708790/118 "2015-01-05T06:07:36Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > The old dryer in my apartment building did not have a water bottle that needed to be emptied. . . [Overextended Metaphor Parrot](http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=1846) ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2015, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-and-the-romance-genre/708790/119 "2015-01-05T07:03:19Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > I didn’t read all the replies, so what I say has likely already been said before. For men I think porn and music are the main outlets for romance (and I wouldn’t call porn romantic). Many popular songs written by men that men like are about love, loss and relationships. Huh, music. I never thought of that as an outlet for romance before. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2015, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-and-the-romance-genre/708790/120 "2015-01-05T07:29:42Z")
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