# Men Choosing to Disengage from Emotional Involvement with Women (... and Bears) **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 16, 2024, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-choosing-to-disengage-from-emotional-involvement-with-women-and-bears/1001627 "2024-05-16T10:50:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Shakester](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shakester/32/437_2.png) [@Shakester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shakester)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2024, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-choosing-to-disengage-from-emotional-involvement-with-women-and-bears/1001627/212 "2024-05-19T14:13:51Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > And ask that guy for a brutal assessment. What does he think you can do to become more attractive? Actually he spent 2 hours on the phone and another couple on Facebook chat telling me how much better I am than than the average guy. Which is nice, but not especially helpful. As it happens I’d be in the fittest 25% of men in my age range, far from athletic but no beer gut at all. I’m thin, very thin, which is one of the problems. I’m not sick, I love food, I eat well and make healthy choices, I’m active and I don’t smoke, take drugs, or drink to excess. I’m just ultra skinny, and always have been. People see a skinny older guy, they think he’s sick or a drug addict. The only actor I resemble physically is Mackenzie Crook, but he’s better looking than I am. I’m over 50, I am never going to have the sort of physique that’s considered “manly”. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I mentioned this earlier in the thread, that straight women tend to spend a helluva lot more time making themselves attractive than straight men do. It’s a massive cultural imbalance. But it’s not necessary. If you’re finding that most straight single women aren’t seeing you as sexually attractive, there’s a pretty good chance there are things you can do to change that. > > It might cost money, it might cost time, but if you’re wanting to find a relationship, don’t neglect the “horny monkeys with monkey bodies and monkey hormones” aspect of dating. Doesn’t work for me. People like my intellect and humour and creativity, but no one thinks it’s sexy. Life, infuriatingly, has cast me in the “kooky friend” role and my emotions insist I should be the romantic lead. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2024, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-choosing-to-disengage-from-emotional-involvement-with-women-and-bears/1001627/213 "2024-05-19T14:15:00Z")
> [@Shakester](#): > > So, what do I do? Single women around the world prefer large carnivorous wild animals to me, right, I know that already. No - they prefer to run into the bear than a man they don’t know, because of how bad the worst men are. The problen women are trying to explain is that you and those worst men aren’t distinguishable at a glance. Unless you act like those worst men, in which case, maybe stop. ---
**Author:** ![Shakester](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shakester/32/437_2.png) [@Shakester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shakester)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2024, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-choosing-to-disengage-from-emotional-involvement-with-women-and-bears/1001627/214 "2024-05-19T14:21:03Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > No - they prefer to run into the bear than a man they don’t know, because of how bad the worst men are. The problen women are trying to explain is that you and those worst men aren’t distinguishable at a glance. > > Unless you act like those worst men, in which case, maybe stop. No, I get it, I really do. I just don’t think it does much, if any, good. The worst people aren’t cartoon evildoers, they’re people who think that whatever bad things they do are entirely justified by reasons. They’re unlikely to be swayed by metaphors. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2024, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-choosing-to-disengage-from-emotional-involvement-with-women-and-bears/1001627/215 "2024-05-19T14:21:12Z")
> [@Shakester](#): > > I have had this conversation with real-life female friends, and they’ve been shocked by things that have been said to me. To be clear, you are saying that you pursued women, and were met with such hostility that you don’t want to try again? Honest question: could that negative reaction have occurred because the women you pursued had no interest in being pursued at that time and place? Could they have even seen your pursuit of them as rude, and so retaliated rudely? I ask because, if there is any chance that this is the case, I really would recommend the apps. Because the main benefit of said apps is being able to easily find lots of other people, all of whom are interested in a relationship. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2024, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-choosing-to-disengage-from-emotional-involvement-with-women-and-bears/1001627/216 "2024-05-19T14:23:02Z")
> [@Shakester](#): > > The worst people aren’t cartoon evildoers, they’re people who think that whatever bad things they do are entirely justified by reasons. They’re unlikely to be swayed by metaphors. They aren’t the target. The target are normal guys who would never harm women and don’t understand why their presence can make women nervous anyways. ---
**Author:** ![Shakester](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shakester/32/437_2.png) [@Shakester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shakester)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2024, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-choosing-to-disengage-from-emotional-involvement-with-women-and-bears/1001627/217 "2024-05-19T14:29:53Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > This is the part that flabbergasts me. That simply is not the world I live in. > > I know lots of single women. Both of my wife’s sisters, for example. And, while I’m married and thus don’t pursue women, you say that _before you make any advances_ women inform you that they aren’t on the market; I’ve never seen a woman preemptively do that, when I was single or now. > > I mean, there are slightly more women than men in this country, and most relationships are monogamous, so basic math should prove to you that there _are_ in fact single women out there. I’m Australian, not in the USA. I don’t think that makes much difference, though. Anyway, I’m not saying that there are no single women, I’m saying that the ones that do exist are, in my experience, uninterested in me. ---
**Author:** ![Shakester](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shakester/32/437_2.png) [@Shakester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shakester)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2024, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-choosing-to-disengage-from-emotional-involvement-with-women-and-bears/1001627/218 "2024-05-19T14:36:51Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > To be clear, you are saying that you pursued women, and were met with such hostility that you don’t want to try again? > > Honest question: could that negative reaction have occurred because the women you pursued had no interest in being pursued at that time and place? Could they have even seen your pursuit of them as rude, and so retaliated rudely? > > I ask because, if there is any chance that this is the case, I really would recommend the apps. Because the main benefit of said apps is being able to easily find lots of other people, all of whom are interested in a relationship. I’m not talking about pursuing women, I’m talking about being out somewhere social, being introduced, and getting an instantly unfriendly and at times distinctly nasty response. Before I’ve even done or said anything, sometimes. I know I’m not good looking, I know it. You don’t have to react like I’m a rapist because I’m ugly, for fuck’s sake. You can disbelieve it, but that’s been my experience. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2024, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-choosing-to-disengage-from-emotional-involvement-with-women-and-bears/1001627/219 "2024-05-19T14:41:10Z")
> [@Shakester](#): > > Actually he spent 2 hours on the phone and another couple on Facebook chat telling me how much better I am than than the average guy. Which is nice, but not especially helpful. > > As it happens I’d be in the fittest 25% of men in my age range, far from athletic but no beer gut at all. I’m thin, very thin, which is one of the problems. I’m not sick, I love food, I eat well and make healthy choices, I’m active and I don’t smoke, take drugs, or drink to excess. I’m just ultra skinny, and always have been. People see a skinny older guy, they think he’s sick or a drug addict. The only actor I resemble physically is Mackenzie Crook, but he’s better looking than I am. I’m over 50, I am never going to have the sort of physique that’s considered “manly”. It sounds like he’s not the guy to give you the brutal assessment, then–and it sounds like you’ve got an assessment you’ve given yourself. Consider getting a brutal assessment from someone who’s not yourself, and who’s willing to give it to you straight, _and_ who has a sense of what you can do. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2024, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-choosing-to-disengage-from-emotional-involvement-with-women-and-bears/1001627/220 "2024-05-19T14:43:09Z")
> [@Shakester](#): > > Anyway, I’m not saying that there are no single women, I’m saying that the ones that do exist are, in my experience, uninterested in me. 🤨 > [@Shakester](#): > > There are no available single women. Like, _none_. Not even ones I’m not attracted to > [@Shakester](#): > > I’m not talking about pursuing women, I’m talking about being out somewhere social, being introduced, and getting an instantly unfriendly and at times distinctly nasty response. Before I’ve even done or said anything, sometimes. I know I’m not good looking, I know it. You don’t have to react like I’m a rapist because I’m ugly, for fuck’s sake. I, and many other men in this thread, don’t have that experience or anything like it, despite not being paragons of male attractiveness ourselves. > [@Shakester](#): > > You can disbelieve it, but that’s been my experience. I don’t disbelieve the experience you’ve had, but I _do_ think you’re misdiagnosing the cause. ---
**Author:** ![Shakester](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shakester/32/437_2.png) [@Shakester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shakester)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2024, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-choosing-to-disengage-from-emotional-involvement-with-women-and-bears/1001627/221 "2024-05-19T14:57:24Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > 🤨 “There are no _available_ single women” is not the same as “there are no single women”. I mean, maybe they’re available to someone who can play the game, but that’s not me. > [@Babale](#): > > I don’t disbelieve the experience you’ve had, but I _do_ think you’re misdiagnosing the cause. You saying I’m a mental case? Because that’s not news here. And, infuriatingly, it doesn’t seem to hinder anyone else. And my personality defects do not prevent me from having many close friends, including many women. Several of my married female friends keep telling me I’m a wonderful guy who should be snatched up. Which is nice, and I don’t think they’re lying, just - you know - they’re happily married because they’re great people. Their husbands got lucky - and I know the husbands would agree with me saying that. I know some great couples. I’m envious but of course I do not begrudge them their happiness. But it doesn’t help me feel less lonely. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2024, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-choosing-to-disengage-from-emotional-involvement-with-women-and-bears/1001627/222 "2024-05-19T15:04:03Z")
> [@Shakester](#): > > I’m talking about being out somewhere social, being introduced, and getting an instantly unfriendly and at times distinctly nasty response. Before I’ve even done or said anything, sometimes. Does this really happen often? I suppose it’s possible, but I can’t help wondering why. Maybe you’re bad at reading people, and they’re not really unfriendly or nasty? Maybe there’s something you’re saying or doing, or some vibe you’re giving off, that turns people off? Maybe there’s some mismatch between the “somewhere social” places you frequent and the way you’re being introduced (like a butcher at a PETA convention)? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2024, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-choosing-to-disengage-from-emotional-involvement-with-women-and-bears/1001627/223 "2024-05-19T15:05:09Z")
> [@Shakester](#): > > You saying I’m a mental case? Because that’s not news here. And, infuriatingly, it doesn’t seem to hinder anyone else. Sigh… no, that’s not what I am saying. As you yourself point out - plenty of people, including ugly ones with emotional issues, manage to nevertheless pair up. I don’t know you. But when I look at people I _do_ know, what separates the unhappily single from the happily paired isn’t appearance or even personality. It’s their attitude towards relationships and the opposite sex. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2024, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-choosing-to-disengage-from-emotional-involvement-with-women-and-bears/1001627/224 "2024-05-19T15:33:52Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > But the implication I’m getting is that there’s no reason to talk to women except either in the hope of getting to ask them out, or as practice for asking other women out. This. So many of the contributions to this thread seem to revolve around this undercurrent of “How can I talk to a woman so I can get closer to her?” with no real interest in the person beyond her possible sexual availability, or at least her utility as an appendage to fill a man’s needs. An undercurrent which sadly characterizes so many of us wimmins’ experience in real life. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2024, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-choosing-to-disengage-from-emotional-involvement-with-women-and-bears/1001627/225 "2024-05-19T15:35:01Z")
> [@Shakester](#): > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > I don’t disbelieve the experience you’ve had, but I _do_ think you’re misdiagnosing the cause. > > You saying I’m a mental case? I don’t see how you got that from anything he said. Is it possible you are bad at reading social cues? To some extent, that can be learned. Or maybe > [@Shakester](#): > > I know I’m not good looking, I know it. You don’t have to react like I’m a rapist because I’m ugly, for fuck’s sake. Can you do anything to make yourself more conventionally attractive? Monkey hormones and all that. ---
**Author:** ![Shakester](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shakester/32/437_2.png) [@Shakester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shakester)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2024, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-choosing-to-disengage-from-emotional-involvement-with-women-and-bears/1001627/226 "2024-05-19T15:37:03Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > I don’t know you. But when I look at people I _do_ know, what separates the unhappily single from the happily paired isn’t appearance or even personality. It’s their attitude towards relationships and the opposite sex. Blaming me for being socially awkward and shy and sensitive doesn’t help. Women see that in me, and the taken ones, and the friendly but uninterested ones, they’re happy to be my friend and tell me how much they like me. Everybody wants to be my friend. Straight male strangers approach me and strike up conversations because I look like an interesting guy. I have no problem at all being liked. But this is not sexy. It does not appeal to womens tastes. I’ve had two relationships in the last 20 years, and both were with women who’d known me long term, decades in one case, and decided after all that time that I wasn’t so bad after all. But that adds up to 5 years of the last 20. If I was able to disengage and just be happy doing the things I do and following my interests, I would do that. Sadly I cannot do that and must therefore suffer. I mean, I might yet give the apps a try, but my expectations are very low. I can hope for a woman with a skinny fetish, but that’s about all I can do. (They do exist, by the way, they’re just _very_ rare.) ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2024, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-choosing-to-disengage-from-emotional-involvement-with-women-and-bears/1001627/227 "2024-05-19T15:44:47Z")
Gay men who are skinny often work out to build muscle mass to attract other gay men. That might be something you can do. And buying a set of weights is pretty affordable. (You didn’t need giant weights.) What do you bring to a potential relationship? It’s a cliche but there’s some truth to the idea that men are looking for beauty and women are looking for power/wealth/influence. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2024, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-choosing-to-disengage-from-emotional-involvement-with-women-and-bears/1001627/228 "2024-05-19T15:49:44Z")
> [@Shakester](#): > > Blaming me for being socially awkward and shy and sensitive doesn’t help. Well, you can take responsibility for your attitudes and behavior, or you can throw your hands in the air and say that there’s nothing you can do. If you choose the latter path, you’ll very likely continue to get the same results you have so far. > [@Shakester](#): > > I can hope for a woman with a skinny fetish, but that’s about all I can do. (They do exist, by the way, they’re just _very_ rare.) 🙄 This is the attitude I am talking about. Really, you’re so freakishly skinny that the only women who will even look at you have a _fetish_? Unless you’re “bloated stomach and skeletal limbs in advanced stages of starvation” skinny, I highly, highly doubt that this is true. ---
**Author:** ![MyFootsZZZ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/myfootszzz/32/12580_2.png) [@MyFootsZZZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MyFootsZZZ)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2024, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-choosing-to-disengage-from-emotional-involvement-with-women-and-bears/1001627/229 "2024-05-19T15:54:56Z")
I’d just like to point out that a lot of men who complain about women not liking them, often don’t just like ANY women that takes a romantic interest in them. We all have preferences. like, I’m a short dude, but I can’t really hate on women who aren’t into that because I have my own standards. That’s one of the reasons why I’m not bitter. How can I be? ---
**Author:** ![Shakester](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shakester/32/437_2.png) [@Shakester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shakester)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2024, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-choosing-to-disengage-from-emotional-involvement-with-women-and-bears/1001627/230 "2024-05-19T15:59:34Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Can you do anything to make yourself more conventionally attractive? Monkey hormones and all that. Not really. There’s no real cure for my looks. I mean, getting the skin cancer that’s currently on my face removed is one, but another scar isn’t going to make anything any worse. I’m in the process of getting that treated. There’s not much that can be done with my teeth other than pulling them out and going with implants, but I don’t have that kind of money. They’re reasonably healthy teeth, just crooked and not super white. I’d prefer to keep them. I have a smashed nose from a beating when I was a teenager - I grew up in a nasty area. My nose was already big, now it’s big and bent. I got it rebroken and reset, but it’s never going to look like it should. My chin is weak, I’m very short-sighted and wear thick glasses. I don’t like contacts and I’m not getting lasered. Too old for that now anyway, I think. My adam’s apple sticks out enough that one idiot woman went into a big spiel about how it was the biggest she’d ever seen. I mean, I’m tallish, 180 cm. That’s around 5’11 or so in American. Not super tall but my thinness makes people think I’m taller than I am. My hair is shit, fine and wispy, and starting to thin out as well. I have a super high forehead so people have assumed I’m balding since I was young anyway. I have scars on my forehead from an injury, too. Just a nasty cut, and a permanent lump over one eye. As I’ve aged my cheeks hollowed out so I look kind of ill even though I’m actually healthier than average. I dress well, and get complimented on it. But you can’t really dress up my face. Looks matter to women far more than they admit. I could get away with the scars and such if I looked rugged, but I am not. I just look skinny and misshapen. ---
**Author:** ![Humans](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/dfb087/32.png) [@Humans](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Humans)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2024, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-choosing-to-disengage-from-emotional-involvement-with-women-and-bears/1001627/231 "2024-05-19T16:05:31Z")
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