# Men Choosing to Disengage from Emotional Involvement with Women (... and Bears) **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 16, 2024, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-choosing-to-disengage-from-emotional-involvement-with-women-and-bears/1001627 "2024-05-16T10:50:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2024, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-choosing-to-disengage-from-emotional-involvement-with-women-and-bears/1001627/152 "2024-05-17T10:57:39Z")
> [@Men Choosing to Disengage from Emotional Involvement with Women (... and Bears)](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-choosing-to-disengage-from-emotional-involvement-with-women-and-bears/1001627/140): > > > **Hid mod ignoring post. This drew a warning and thread-ban.** > > > > "George T. Winston (1901), another “Negrophobic” writer, claimed: When a knock is heard at the door [a White woman] shudders with nameless horror. The black brute is lurking in the dark, a monstrous beast, crazed with lust. His ferocity is almost demoniacal. A mad bull or tiger could scarcely be more brutal. A whole community is frenzied with horror, with the blind and furious rage for vengeance.(pp. 108-109)" This quote is us… This is a **2nd warning** for the thread as you’ve specifically ignored the prior moderation. > [@Men Choosing to Disengage from Emotional Involvement with Women (... and Bears)](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-choosing-to-disengage-from-emotional-involvement-with-women-and-bears/1001627/131): > > Moderating: This is a formal warning for failure to follow moderator instructions. Stop making over-the-top provocative comparisons to Jim Crow, etc. One more jerkish post will earn you another warning and a ban from this thread. **This is a Thread Ban for you. Do not post in this thread any more. Or the other related Man/Bear thread.** ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2024, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-choosing-to-disengage-from-emotional-involvement-with-women-and-bears/1001627/153 "2024-05-17T11:01:32Z")
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**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2024, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-choosing-to-disengage-from-emotional-involvement-with-women-and-bears/1001627/154 "2024-05-17T11:02:14Z")
### To all, stay on-topic. Follow moderator instructions when issued. ---
**Author:** ![Moonrise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moonrise/32/14764_2.png) [@Moonrise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moonrise)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2024, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-choosing-to-disengage-from-emotional-involvement-with-women-and-bears/1001627/155 "2024-05-17T14:05:03Z")
> [@MyFootsZZZ](#): > > My experience is that SOME women really don’t find that as appealing as maybe someone who gives off more “edgy” vibes. I mean, that’s cool and all, we all have our preferences, myself included. I’ve been hurt a lot and taken advantage of by women I’ve pursued a relationships with in the past, so lately I just don’t care. > [@Jasmine](#): > > Actually, more often than not, “the nice guy” ends up being used and discarded. > [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > My husband is the most gentle person, but he’s fierce in his commitments, hard-working and reliable and while those aren’t exclusively male qualities I think they add up to a different kind of masculinity in him. One that isn’t trying to put on some kind of manly facade but who is just doing what needs to be done. One who isn’t the least bit threatened by challenges to his masculinity because he is so grounded in who he is. > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > The “nice guy” in the sense of the term that I know is not an actual nice guy at all. He’s only presenting as nice because he wants something. With @thorny_locust’s caveat in mind, I have written here before that women don’t primarily want nice guys. Of course, they don’t want abusers either, but it seems to me that they first and foremost want a guy who brings something(s) very concrete to the table. What those somethings are vary widely from woman to woman but they absolutely have to be there. If the man is nice too, that’s a huge plus, but not enough in and of itself. My ex-wife surprised me a few days ago when she told me that I had been too nice to her. It shocked me because if I remember correctly, she was constantly accusing me of being narcissitic and abusive. She clarified that she would have wanted me to be more assertive, more of a leader. That hit very close to home because I suspect that this lack of assertiveness on my part may have played a role in the failure of my following relationship. When I met Gini she was at an all-time low (abusive father, abusive ex, abusive colleagues and health problems). I provided her with stability and safety as I thought that was what she’d been missing all her life. But I slowly realized that she was also definitely attracted to the more traditional masculine traits, which I either didn’t have or didn’t care for. She craved safety and affection, sure, but she also wanted me to be decisive and strong in a way I wasn’t really. > [@SyncoSmalls](#): > > Because women are kicking ass right now. They need men less than they used to because society isn’t actively working to keep them undereducated and underemployed. Women don’t have to settle for just anyone now. > … > Men need to feel empowered enough to actually evolve. I think some men are definitely trying to redefine what it is to be a man in order to adapt to the new reality that you describe. It isn’t easy, though. Partly because changing millenia of ingrained gender roles cannot be done overnight, but also because women are not always clear about what they themselves want, or rather, they’re still attached to some old-style values and it’s the man’s job to try and distinguish what must be tossed and what should be kept. When you consider that no two women are the same, it becomes impossibly complex to position oneself, apart from platitudes like “don’t be evil”. All in all, there’s sometimes a very fine line between safe and boring, demonstrative and emotional, confident and arrogant, sensitive and weak, caring and controlling, patient and indecisive, strong and oppressive, open-minded and wishy-washy. Failing to identify the line can be catastrophic. Some women, like Gini, are definitely put off by men who appear weak, just as by those who are insensitive. > [@SyncoSmalls](#): > > Maybe this is my old school mentality showing, but social animals don’t thrive unless if they feel useful to others on a frequent basis. When that psychological need isn’t being met, we go off in directions that are not all the healthy. That’s what I was trying to get at by starting this thread. I do feel that I still have something to give, that I can still provide some of the things that some women want. The mixed signals that I get muddle the waters and I don’t know what to think anymore, apart again from useless platitudes. > [@Ulfreida](#): > > My opinion is that one of the things boys need are role models of what healthy masculinity looks like. True. But what consitutes “healthy masculinity”, bearing in mind that not all the points you list will appeal to all women ? My father gave me an example of that that I’ve tried to follow. He was definitely not playing the alpha male role, nor was he sporty, but he was strong in other ways, very much like @Spice_Weasel’s husband : grounded, reliable and hard-working. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > if every relationship you’ve ever been in has been bad, you may need to step back and look at what was the common factor in all of those relationships. Absolutely, see below. > [@msmith537](#): > > I guess my first question might be what is it about you or your appearance or where you live or whatever factor it is that you think is making you experience life as some sort of Frankenstein monster? > [@JackieLikesVariety](#): > > that certainly makes everything harder. based on all the stuff I just read I think you are doing fine and made a good thread. > [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > Thank you for responding to my admittedly harsh (but tentative) assessment. This description does put a different light on your feelings. I only have the vaguest idea what “neurodivergent” means in your specific case, so I won’t comment further. > [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > It sounds like you suspect you are autistic; my son is diagnosed autistic and I suspect his father is too, at least in a subclinical way. Growing up, there was little conversation about neurodivergence and much less help. It took me a while to realize that my reactions were atypical, and usually when I did it was because a woman rubbed my nose in it, and usually not in a nice way. But I don’t really want to discuss this because I haven’t been diagnosed. I don’t want to use this possibility as an excuse to avoid facing the fact that I’m not always, well, nice. > [@msmith537](#): > > Not that this necessarily applies to you, but in my experience men who don’t “understand” women often lack both self-awareness as well as an ability (or interest) to recognize social cues in women. > [@Ulfreida](#): > > And boys need to learn early how talk to girls. And listen to them. This seems a vast lacuna in our culture. So many boys get all the way to puberty with a sense that girls are an alien unknowable species that must be somehow manipulated or appeased to get what they want from them. And many go all the way through life that way. Actually, I’ve spent all of my adult life listening to women. Men’s discussions bored me. The thing is, I thought that gave me a good grip on what they wanted. Now, I’m really not sure at all. Experience has certainly shown that I’ve missed crucial cues too often. > [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > If you did everything right, you did everything right. Let’s say that among the things that I thought were right, I did everything I could. But I _did_ make many mistakes. And I’m no angel, of course. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > I disagree entirely. It brings about a reaction of, “Well, what exactly can I do about this?” and the response is to be less threatening. That’s the problem I have with the meme. Sure it is a striking illustration of a terrible problem. But it was absolutely bound to lead to toxic discussions, which is exactly what happened. It offered no solutions, so the only thing that people could do was blame each other. > [@bump](#): > > And really, you can’t live your life tiptoeing around other people’s unknown traumas. > [@Slithy\_Tove](#): > > False dichotomy, obviously. Used as a smokescreen? Perhaps. You’re right. There are alternative paths and that’s what several people are saying. There’re not for everyone because we all have our very specific experiences. > [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > You could easily have another 30 or more years to live, I think it’s worth that effort, if you can find and afford a good therapist. I hope things will improve for you in any case. It is, but the thought that I don’t need to have a woman in my life, as much as I want to, has been liberating. Last weekend, I was sightreading (badly) [Chopin’s _Nocturne_ n°2](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMuWawkJeMQ) and at one point, I got a few chord changes just right and those gorgeous harmonies were right under my fingers. I couldn’t help but whisper “beautiful”. It was a moment of pure happiness. I’ve also come up with a (flexible) travel list for the next 10 years. There are still so many things that I want to see and that I can do on my own. Finally, I’m very popular at work, which is also definitely a boost to my ego. In other words, I have plenty of paths to fulfilment that are still open, with or without a woman in my life. > [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > I believe in love like some people believe in religion. I think it can move mountains. So I hope someone marvellous comes your way and when she does you are ready for her. I am assuming what’s what you really want deep down based on some of your comments here. Gini used to do this thing that I loved. In the mornings when she woke up, she’d slowly reach out for my hand under the sheets. She’d hold it without moving for a couple of minutes. Then suddenly, she’d turn around to face me with her gorgeous blue eyes wide open, whispering “Bonjour, mon amour”. Our relationship quickly turned dysfunctional after an breathtakingly beautiful start and it is, unfortunately, a good thing that we broke up. But of course, I’d love to live something like this again. Several factors make me think that it is unlikely. My age, my quirks, the fact that real love is something one experiences rarely in life, and first and foremost all the defiance, fear and misunderstandings that we’ve described in this thread. All of that speaks against it. That’s why I’d rather withdraw, to avoid hurting and being hurt because of things that are out of my control. But of course, I’d love to live something like this again. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2024, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-choosing-to-disengage-from-emotional-involvement-with-women-and-bears/1001627/156 "2024-05-17T14:12:40Z")
thorny\_locust has it right. I don’t mean a nice guy as in someone who is kind, considerate, etc. The actual term “nice guy” applies to a definite personality type that most women don’t find appealing because it is insincere and indicative of a weak personality that says, “I will be completely subservient and do anything and everything for you so that you will want me.” ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2024, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-choosing-to-disengage-from-emotional-involvement-with-women-and-bears/1001627/157 "2024-05-17T14:25:25Z")
> [@Moonrise](#): > > With @thorny_locust’s caveat in mind, I have written here before that women don’t primarily want nice guys. > > Of course, they don’t want abusers either, but it seems to me that they first and foremost want a guy who brings something(s) very concrete to the table. What those somethings are vary widely from woman to woman but they absolutely have to be there. If the man is nice too, that’s a huge plus, but not enough in and of itself. It occurs to me that nobody expects men to fall for “nice girls.” I’ve never heard a woman say, “I’m kind, I don’t talk shit about men, why isn’t that enough?” Our society takes it for granted that if a straight woman wants to find romance, being nice isn’t enough: she also needs to do things to make herself attractive to the kind of guy she’s interested in. We take it for granted that straight guys want a woman who’s hot, who’s feminine, who’s bringing more to the mating game than a lack of cruelty. Of course, most guys don’t want to get together with a woman who’s an asshole. Being a “nice girl” is necessary but not sufficient. I think that’s true for most women as well. Being a “nice guy” (not the idiom, the literal meaning) is necessary for most straight women looking for a man, but it’s not sufficient. They _also_ want someone who’s hot, who’s masculine, who’s bringing more to the mating game than a lack of cruelty. I confess it took me a ridiculously long time to internalize that. I didn’t ever blame women for not being interested in me; I just didn’t understand viscerally that “being interested in guys” could be a thing. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2024, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-choosing-to-disengage-from-emotional-involvement-with-women-and-bears/1001627/158 "2024-05-17T14:30:49Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > It occurs to me that nobody expects men to fall for “nice girls.” I’ve never heard a woman say, “I’m kind, I don’t talk shit about men, why isn’t that enough?” I think there are some equivalents. Maybe “The Sweet Girl”, a girl who is very easy going and doting might think she’s a real prize for a guy. It is similar but different. I feel like that comes up from time to time, just not as often as the “nice guy” schtick. Sorry, I was trying to stay out of this, but I do think there is some equivalent to the “Nice Guy” among women. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2024, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-choosing-to-disengage-from-emotional-involvement-with-women-and-bears/1001627/159 "2024-05-17T14:38:56Z")
> [@Moonrise](#): > > Of course, they don’t want abusers either, but it seems to me that they first and foremost want a guy who brings something(s) very concrete to the table. What those somethings are vary widely from woman to woman but they absolutely have to be there. If the man is nice too, that’s a huge plus, but not enough in and of itself. No one thing is going to be enough in itself. “Genuinely nice” isn’t enough in itself, no; but nothing else is, either. And “genuinely nice” is on quite a lot of women’s must-have lists. The fact that all of those lists will have more than one item on them doesn’t mean that all the items on those lists don’t matter, or that one matters more than the others. > [@Moonrise](#): > > My ex-wife surprised me a few days ago when she told me that I had been too nice to her. It shocked me because if I remember correctly, she was constantly accusing me of being narcissitic and abusive. I think that it’s possible that your ex-wife is messed up. Some people are. The likelihood of being messed up has not in my experience been connected to one gender more than another. > [@Moonrise](#): > > When I met Gini she was at an all-time low (abusive father, abusive ex, abusive colleagues and health problems). Well, that’ll mess you up, all right, whatever gender you are. Some people overcome it. Not everybody can. > [@Moonrise](#): > > When you consider that no two women are the same, it becomes impossibly complex to position oneself, apart from platitudes like “don’t be evil”. Are you seriously trying to position yourself so as to appeal to everybody? That’s impossible. And it should not be possible, because people vary and ought to vary. “Don’t be evil” is not a platitude, except as Google uses it. And I strongly advise not “trying to position yourself”; but instead trying to be the best version of what’s actually yourself that you can, and trying to find someone who wants to be in a relationship with that person. Yes, for some of us that’s hard, and we may not find that person. But trying to lie about who you are in order to attract somebody who doesn’t actually want to be with you is unlikely to ever work out well. > [@Moonrise](#): > > what consitutes “healthy masculinity”, bearing in mind that not all the points you list will appeal to all women ? Again, nothing will appeal to all women. Such a being does not exist, and can’t. I know a number of men who exhibit what I would call “healthy masculinity”. They exhibit it in widely different fashions, ranging from the little quiet guy who loves cats to the large loud one who goes in for hunting, beer drinking, and barbecue (and also loves cats); and including quite a number of other variations. What they seem to me to have in common is that they don’t worry about whether they’re being masculine or not: they’re certain enough of it that they’re not concerned about their presentation. [ETA: most of them are also happily married.] I’m a woman who has all of my life done some things coded as masculine and not done some things coded as feminine. But my attitude ever since I was a small child has been ‘this must be a thing that girls/women do. Because here I am, a girl/woman, and I’m doing it’. It seems to me that the men I’m thinking of have the equivalent attitude: ‘this must be a thing that men do, because I’m a man, and I’m doing it.’ > [@Moonrise](#): > > That’s the problem I have with the meme. Sure it is a striking illustration of a terrible problem. But it was absolutely bound to lead to toxic discussions, which is exactly what happened. I think any discussion of this subject is going to attract some toxic comments. But the alternative is never discussing it. We (as a society) have tried that, it doesn’t work. We need to have the discussions. > [@Moonrise](#): > > but the thought that I don’t need to have a woman in my life, as much as I want to, has been liberating. I think that the equivalent realization has also been liberating for a whole lot of women. I also think we’d be better off, overall, if nearly everybody lived alone for a while. All too many people, of any gender, get married because they’re afraid to be alone. It’s not a good reason. Many people, of any gender, who have that realization eventually do get married; having become, while on their own, somebody who attracts people worth marrying. Some people don’t, but nevertheless have satisfying and useful lives. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2024, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-choosing-to-disengage-from-emotional-involvement-with-women-and-bears/1001627/160 "2024-05-17T14:41:38Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > It occurs to me that nobody expects men to fall for “nice girls.” I’ve never heard a woman say, “I’m kind, I don’t talk shit about men, why isn’t that enough?” Our society takes it for granted that if a straight woman wants to find romance, being nice isn’t enough: she also needs to do things to make herself attractive to the kind of guy she’s interested in. We take it for granted that straight guys want a woman who’s hot, who’s feminine, who’s bringing more to the mating game than a lack of cruelty. That’s because a woman is viewed as a prize to be won, so obviously you want to win a “good” prize by doing what you’re supposed to. “I met all the requirements; where is my reward?”. A woman meanwhile is meant to make the reward pool attractive enough that high quality men compete for her, at which point she can pick the winner. It’s a fucked up way for men and women to look at each other or at the dating market, and nowadays we all know that, so openly saying the above is no longer in vogue. But if you read many of the complaints about the dating market, you realize that they _make no sense_ in the context of consenting adults on equal terms navigating a relationship together. They make _perfect_ sense when considered through the lens of this antiquated view of the relationship between men and women. So to those making such complaints about the way men and women interact, I recommend changing your lens. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2024, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-choosing-to-disengage-from-emotional-involvement-with-women-and-bears/1001627/161 "2024-05-17T14:48:11Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > > [@Moonrise](#): > > > > When you consider that no two women are the same, it becomes impossibly complex to position oneself, apart from platitudes like “don’t be evil”. > > Are you seriously trying to position yourself so as to appeal to everybody? That’s impossible. And it should not be possible, because people vary and ought to vary. Right. Just be yourself, do things you like to do, and find people who are into that. Don’t try to fit what someone else is looking for. ---
**Author:** ![Jay\_Z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Jay\_Z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jay_Z)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2024, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-choosing-to-disengage-from-emotional-involvement-with-women-and-bears/1001627/162 "2024-05-17T15:08:07Z")
> [@Moonrise](#): > > Of course, they don’t want abusers either, but it seems to me that they first and foremost want a guy who brings something(s) very concrete to the table. What those somethings are vary widely from woman to woman but they absolutely have to be there. If the man is nice too, that’s a huge plus, but not enough in and of itself. No, it isn’t. Being a provider is not going to be enough. Being a good person, nice is not going to be enough. Too many distractions. If you don’t have the emotional connection, you should not take this on. So this is not a level up message. Men should be pickier. The relationship is not going to last without the connection. So don’t start one if you don’t think that is sufficient. Move on and find another woman. There are as many women out there as men, find a more suitable partner. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2024, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-choosing-to-disengage-from-emotional-involvement-with-women-and-bears/1001627/163 "2024-05-17T15:18:40Z")
I think it’s all inter-related with men’s confidence. I mean, if you (the generic male ‘you’) are unsuccessful with women, that’s going to make you self-conscious and anxious about dating/talking to women. So you’re likely to, for lack of a better term, overthink it and analyze why you were unsuccessful. Many men come to the conclusion that it’s something they _did_, in the sense of a specific action or event that was somehow repellent, and caused them to be unsuccessful. So they’ll go way out of their way to be ‘nice’ and do what they think women are going to like, and what they’ve been told women like- being courteous, etc… The problem is that they’re looking at it like it’s a video game or something, and there’s a code you enter to unlock women, and if they can get that code right, then women will like them, etc… They usually imagine this involved looking, acting and smelling a certain way, and going to certain restaurants, etc. That’s why that pickup artist stuff was so compelling to many men like that- it basically purports to give you the cheat codes. What they don’t realize is that it’s not like that; it’s much more loosey-goosey than that- being confident, being sure of yourself, being your own authentic self, even if that self is kind of an asshole or is goofy, etc., is much more important with most women than following the exact right script and doing the exact right actions in the right order. And not incidentally, that’s why my suggestion on Reddit was to essentially keep it small. Just talk to them, and if it works out, ask them out for an extremely low stakes date. That way, if you get rejected, it’s no big deal, AND if you’re successful, it’s also no big deal. Over time, you’ll get to where you’re very confident and self-assured in doing so, and _that_ is compelling to women, not setting up a big set-piece date at an expensive restaurant. And full disclosure, I’m not just the owner, I’m a client, in a sense. This is basically how I got over my own dating anxiety, and it worked very, very well. I went from someone who gave off vibes of desperation to someone who was interesting because I didn’t care- in essence women were curious what was going on with me as to why I was so confident/unconcerned if they said yes or no. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2024, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-choosing-to-disengage-from-emotional-involvement-with-women-and-bears/1001627/164 "2024-05-17T15:25:20Z")
I think that’s a very good critique. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2024, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-choosing-to-disengage-from-emotional-involvement-with-women-and-bears/1001627/165 "2024-05-17T15:34:16Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > That’s because a woman is viewed as a prize to be won, so obviously you want to win a “good” prize by doing what you’re supposed to. “I met all the requirements; where is my reward?”. > > A woman meanwhile is meant to make the reward pool attractive enough that high quality men compete for her, at which point she can pick the winner. That’s definitely an interesting analysis. I think it makes sense. What I thought as a teenager wasn’t that women should be a prize; it was that people should be able to, I dunno, look at each others’ _souls_ and choose someone who was a wonderful human being based on a spiritual connection. Physical intimacy would naturally follow from that spiritual connection. Accordingly, I didn’t do anything to make myself physically attractive, and I didn’t admit that maybe I was attracted to certain women in part for their physicality. I ignored the fact that we’re all (or most of us) horny monkeys with monkey brains and monkey hormones, and that that’s a perfectly legit part of the dating process. I think a lot of folks who see themselves as “nice guys” have at least part of this view going on; and if they could acknowledge that women are also horny monkeys with monkey brains and monkey hormones, it might demystify some of the dating process. ---
**Author:** ![velomont](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/8491ac/32.png) [@velomont](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/velomont)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2024, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-choosing-to-disengage-from-emotional-involvement-with-women-and-bears/1001627/166 "2024-05-17T15:38:59Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Which in my mind is _their_ problem, not a problem of guys wanting to strike up a conversation and ask them out for coffee. I think that the problem for women (I’m a guy), is not that some guy wants to “strike up a conversation and ask them out for coffee”. I think that the problem is women get that a lot, and inappropriately, and they don’t know what the outcome of a rejection will be, and they probably have to do some mental calculation and analysis every fucking time. I’m 6’ 3" and I weigh about 220 lbs. If most times that I was out and about, I got approached frequently by a 7’ 300lb person with an unknowable, unpredictable set of reactions to a refusal, I would be from bothered-to-fearful by it too. And one other thing. Women aren’t prey. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2024, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-choosing-to-disengage-from-emotional-involvement-with-women-and-bears/1001627/167 "2024-05-22T16:23:57Z")
A post was merged into an existing topic: [SyncoSmalls trocking thread](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/syncosmalls-trocking-thread/1001913/112) ---
**Author:** ![JackieLikesVariety](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackielikesvariety/32/296_2.png) [@JackieLikesVariety](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JackieLikesVariety)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2024, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-choosing-to-disengage-from-emotional-involvement-with-women-and-bears/1001627/168 "2024-05-17T15:48:50Z")
> [@Moonrise](#): > > But it was absolutely bound to lead to toxic discussions, which is exactly what happened. It offered no solutions, so the only thing that people could do was blame each other. I see this thread as overwhelmingly positive, see below. > [@velomont](#): > > ’m 6’ 3" and I weigh about 220 lbs. If most times that I was out and about, I got approached frequently by a 7’ 300lb person with an unknowable, unpredictable set of reactions to a refusal, I would be from bothered-to-fearful by it too. > > And one other thing. Women aren’t prey. brilliant! it’s much easier to listen to what women are saying (I choose the bear) if you can imagine the constant 7 foot 300 person out there every time you walk down the street. > [@On another topic](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1001913/112): > > So men need to take it upon themselves to redefine masculinity so that they are not enslaved to outdated modes of being and can enjoy a fuller range of the human experience. so many good posts in this thread: overwhelmingly positive thanks to lots of good people and good moderation. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2024, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-choosing-to-disengage-from-emotional-involvement-with-women-and-bears/1001627/169 "2024-05-17T16:31:38Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > But if you read many of the complaints about the dating market, you realize that they _make no sense_ in the context of consenting adults on equal terms navigating a relationship together. They make _perfect_ sense when considered through the lens of this antiquated view of the relationship between men and women. Yes, exactly. It is 100% about mindset. This is not a game to be won, this is about two unique human beings building a life together. And while all the romantic feelings are nice, the attraction and great sex or whatever you’re looking for, they are not what sustains a relationship. I’m thinking of a song that reminds me of my husband. _I’m watching you go, it’s like spying on hope ever onward with more to burn_ _Giving your hands and your heart to the wheel of the world, though it fights each turn_ _But you do not give up so easily_ _That’s how I know you won’t surrender me_ _You rise and meet the day_ _It’s all I need, it’s all I need to know,_ Jesus, I’m gonna cry now. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2024, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-choosing-to-disengage-from-emotional-involvement-with-women-and-bears/1001627/170 "2024-05-17T16:34:25Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > And while all the romantic feelings are nice, the attraction and great sex or whatever you’re looking for, they are not what sustains a relationship. While that’s true, it’s pretty difficult, absent arranged marriages or the like, to get a relationship started without them. I think a lot of nice guys don’t realize that. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2024, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-choosing-to-disengage-from-emotional-involvement-with-women-and-bears/1001627/171 "2024-05-17T16:41:23Z")
That’s probably true for most people. I wasn’t particularly attracted to my husband when we first met, I just liked him as a person, and deep friendship turned to something more. It was only later that I realized he is a really beautiful man. If you look at who I’ve crushed on or dated in the early part of my life there was really no unifying factor of conventional attractiveness. It was all about personality for me. I don’t really know how other people work. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-choosing-to-disengage-from-emotional-involvement-with-women-and-bears/1001627.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-choosing-to-disengage-from-emotional-involvement-with-women-and-bears/1001627.md?page=9)