# Men Choosing to Disengage from Emotional Involvement with Women (... and Bears) **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 16, 2024, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-choosing-to-disengage-from-emotional-involvement-with-women-and-bears/1001627 "2024-05-16T10:50:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Moonrise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moonrise/32/14764_2.png) [@Moonrise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moonrise)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2024, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-choosing-to-disengage-from-emotional-involvement-with-women-and-bears/1001627/172 "2024-05-17T16:42:28Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Are you seriously trying to position yourself so as to appeal to everybody? That’s impossible. And it should not be possible, because people vary and ought to vary. > > “Don’t be evil” is not a platitude, except as Google uses it. And I strongly advise not “trying to position yourself”; but instead trying to be the best version of what’s actually yourself that you can, and trying to find someone who wants to be in a relationship with that person. Yes, for some of us that’s hard, and we may not find that person. But trying to lie about who you are in order to attract somebody who doesn’t actually want to be with you is unlikely to ever work out well. Of course. What I meant was that, in the early stages you try to assess whether you’re compatible. But no two persons are a perfect fit, so you see what differences do not matter and can be overcome. That’s what I meant by positioning myself, trying to see what I can change in me to make things easier, without losing myself in the process. When you make a mistake at that stage, it can lead to serious problems. I understood that Gini craved safety and affection but I missed the fact that she _also_ wanted a strong and ambitious man. When I realized this, our roles were already set and her fear of conflict made her full expectations impossible to decipher because she, understandably given her history but unfortunately, prefered being silent than risking a confrontation. > [@On another topic](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/1001913/112): > > I think you’ve hit on the flaw in men’s thinking: The belief that women are the ones who dictate the script that men need to follow. > > I understand why this belief exists, but you can see the problem with it, right? A man who needs a woman to define who he is will never have self-respect; he is like a child that subordinates himself to his mother. > > The progress women have made in breaking out of sexist gender roles has come about _because_ they didn’t let men’s preferences govern their actions. Doing so would have been a recipe for going backwards; if you’re a man who wants a maid and a live-in nanny for a wife, you’re way too self-interested to act as a North Star for women who don’t want that life. > > So why would men use the preferences of women as a North Star? Women are under the influence of the same norms that are holding men back. So men need to take it upon themselves to redefine masculinity so that they are not enslaved to outdated modes of being and can enjoy a fuller range of the human experience. Great post, thanks. > [@JackieLikesVariety](#): > > I see this thread as overwhelmingly positive, see below. Just to be clear, yes it is. At first, I had the feeling that I had failed again at being clear and that I was going to come off as an asshole. The numerous positive comments and insightful posts I’ve read since yesterday are a relief. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2024, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-choosing-to-disengage-from-emotional-involvement-with-women-and-bears/1001627/173 "2024-05-17T19:12:45Z")
How do you propose someone meet people then? At some point, you DO have to get outside your comfort zone and go talk to them, whether it’s in a bar, at church, at work, at the grocery, at the park, etc… I’m still not sure how men are expected to meet women and talk to them, if you know, talking to them is off limits? My point was that if you have trouble with that because you’re putting too much of _your own_ weight on it, the way to get past that is to just do it without expectations to the point where you don’t put any weight on it. That’s all. And it’s got benefits to women in an unexpected way; if you do actually talk to a lot of women without expectations, you actually get to see them as people, not as some inscrutable “other” gender that you don’t understand. I’m not presenting it as women = prey, but I do believe dating is absolutely a game that has unspoken rules and expectations (or a very intricate dance that you’re not taught, if you prefer), and the way to be successful (however you define that) is to figure all that out and do it well. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2024, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-choosing-to-disengage-from-emotional-involvement-with-women-and-bears/1001627/174 "2024-05-17T19:23:16Z")
> [@bump](#): > > How do you propose someone meet people then? At some point, you DO have to get outside your comfort zone and go talk to them, whether it’s in a bar, at church, at work, at the grocery, at the park, etc… I’m still not sure how men are expected to meet women and talk to them, if you know, talking to them is off limits? Talking to women is not off limits. Pretending to make casual conversation in order to sneakily get close enough to ask out a woman who has shown no sign of interested in dating SHOULD BE off limits. Why can’t you do one of two things: 1. Interact with women like you do with any other human being, and if there is a connection that arises while discussing other interests, ask them out 2. Go to events or places that are specifically designed for single people to meet each other, where you know that any women you encounter are there for the same purpose ---
**Author:** ![velomont](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/8491ac/32.png) [@velomont](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/velomont)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2024, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-choosing-to-disengage-from-emotional-involvement-with-women-and-bears/1001627/175 "2024-05-17T19:33:43Z")
> [@bump](#): > > At some point, you DO have to get outside your comfort zone and go talk to them, whether it’s in a bar, at church, at work, at the grocery, at the park, etc… I’m still not sure how men are expected to meet women and talk to them, if you know, talking to them is off limits? I believe that the above is key, for a number of reasons. And maybe I’m misunderstanding you and taking you too literally. So please correct me if I have. That is, I wouldn’t ask someone out unless I had already had some conversations with her and thought that we wouldn’t be taken aback by that. I think a problem now is that romcoms promote the pursuit and the asking out of the blue of the target. It’s not something I would do unless I was at a bar or some scenario specifically for that purpose. But that’s just me. ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2024, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-choosing-to-disengage-from-emotional-involvement-with-women-and-bears/1001627/176 "2024-05-17T20:49:23Z")
> [@EddyTeddyFreddy](#): > > > [@JackieLikesVariety](#): > > > > I’m walking down the street. I’m late for work, I’m wondering if I should text my boss, and some guy wants to say something to me. or he tells me I should smile, since apparently I wasn’t. > > > > he _demands_ my attention. I’m not claiming he is a rapist, I’m saying I should get to walk down the street minding my own business and _I should decide if I have time to give him any attention at all._ without worrying if it will make him mad or not. > > This this this this THIS! I’m old and frumpy now and it’s no longer a problem for me, but DAMMIT it used to annoy me no end! Especially the patronizing smirk that went along with the “Smile!” demand, the aura of entitlement to me, my behavior, my attention, my very existence in the guy’s world. I had my eyes opened to this a few years ago, watching a co-worker, an attractive young woman, coming into work. It was near eight o’clock, and I could tell she was trying to get to the time clock. But she walked past a group of male customers, one of whom tried to banter with her. When she kept walking, he said, “Ah, where you going? Doncha want to come back and talk to me?” Nothing crude or disrespectful or abusive, but I noted that he thought he could demand, or perhaps even was _owed_, her attention. I thought, “Dude. Read the cues. She’s purposefully walking away, she clearly has something in mind and it ain’t listening to your game.” Whenever I hear the word “microaggression”, I remember that incident, and realizing how often women encounter that shit. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2024, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-choosing-to-disengage-from-emotional-involvement-with-women-and-bears/1001627/177 "2024-05-17T20:57:17Z")
> [@bump](#): > > How do you propose someone meet people then? At some point, you DO have to get outside your comfort zone and go talk to them, whether it’s in a bar, at church, at work, at the grocery, at the park, etc… I’m still not sure how men are expected to meet women and talk to them, if you know, talking to them is off limits? Talking to women is not off limits. Talking to women in circumstances in which they show no signs of being interested in conversation is what’s off limits. There are plenty of circumstances in which conversation is normal and expected. Randomly on the street is not one of them. At the grocery to someone showing no signs of interest in conversation is not one of them. (Where do you think they’ve got the mushrooms? or Wow, this is a long line, or something of that sort, isn’t out of line; but if the answer is nonexistent or short, don’t get pissed off and don’t continue. You have no idea what else has happened otherwise in that day, or in her life.) At the park is only one of them if the person shows some sign of interest in conversation. At the bar is fine if it’s a singles bar; not fine at other types of bar if the woman looks like she just wants to have a quiet drink on her own. If you can’t tell, leave her alone and go find a singles bar. Or better yet – what sort of life are you living in which women are never present in circumstances in which you’d ordinarily be talking with them about things other than dating? Try to change that. Go find an activity you like that’s being done by groups that aren’t all male. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2024, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-choosing-to-disengage-from-emotional-involvement-with-women-and-bears/1001627/178 "2024-05-17T23:21:09Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Or better yet – what sort of life are you living in which women are never present in circumstances in which you’d ordinarily be talking with them about things other than dating? Try to change that. Go find an activity you like that’s being done by groups that aren’t all male. See, this is just one of the many problems (she tut-tutted, glaring through her lorgnette) exacerbated by the decline of social life conducted through reciprocal hospitality among individuals and families in their private capacity. People in general used to throw parties and host dinners and just generally provide occasions where other people could meet, mingle and socialize as private individuals. (Some of us still do, but we stopped inviting the people who never reciprocate, so if you never get asked to parties anymore, maybe that’s why?) Hosts made an effort to bring people together who they thought would enjoy each other’s company. Guests made an effort to converse with other guests and help everybody enjoy the event. Nowadays the vibe is much more “every socializer for themself”. People go out in pre-acquainted groups for “pay your own way” visits to restaurants and clubs and other commercial entertainment providers, where it’s not a breach of etiquette to ignore strangers if you want to. There are no social obligations or duties, beyond paying what you owe for the use of the commercial entertainment. Naturally, that’s going to get everybody concentrating on what they want to do, in order to get what they consider their “money’s worth” out of their commercially-based social life. Not surprisingly, that makes it a lot harder to meet people who haven’t already decided that they want to meet you. And getting random strangers to decide that they want to meet you is a challenging task, unless you’re the latest boy band sensation or something. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2024, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-choosing-to-disengage-from-emotional-involvement-with-women-and-bears/1001627/179 "2024-05-17T23:24:30Z")
The fear of rape is a very real and needs to be considered. But only 7% of rapes are from strangers. ---
**Author:** ![JackieLikesVariety](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackielikesvariety/32/296_2.png) [@JackieLikesVariety](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JackieLikesVariety)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2024, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-choosing-to-disengage-from-emotional-involvement-with-women-and-bears/1001627/180 "2024-05-17T23:30:02Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > this is just one of the many problems (she tut-tutted, glaring through her lorgnette) exacerbated by the decline of social life conducted through reciprocal hospitality among individuals and families in their private capacity. People are a lot less social in other ways, see [Bowling Alone](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowling_Alone) among other things > Putnam used bowling as an example to illustrate this; although the number of people who bowled had increased in the last 20 years, the number of people who bowled in leagues had decreased. If people bowled alone, they did not participate in the social interaction and civic discussions that might occur in a league environment. (I snorted about the lorgnette) ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2024, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-choosing-to-disengage-from-emotional-involvement-with-women-and-bears/1001627/181 "2024-05-17T23:37:16Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > See, this is just one of the many problems (she tut-tutted, glaring through her lorgnette) exacerbated by the decline of social life conducted through reciprocal hospitality among individuals and families in their private capacity. And the decline in community spaces. And not knowing who your neighbors are. There’s been a pretty dramatic cultural shift in a short amount of time. It’s just hard to meet people these days. I wouldn’t dispute that as a real challenge to people who are looking for either romance or friends. I’m married but we’ve struggled to find people to add to our friendship circle. It’s more like our friendships exist in discrete units that don’t intersect. So we have friends but we’re seeing a different friend every weekend without much social overlap. Which means we’re not really getting deep engagement with any of them. Which means, honestly, we’re kinda lonely. ---
**Author:** ![velomont](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/8491ac/32.png) [@velomont](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/velomont)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2024, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-choosing-to-disengage-from-emotional-involvement-with-women-and-bears/1001627/182 "2024-05-17T23:37:52Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > And getting random strangers to decide that they want to meet you is a challenging task But that isn’t some sort of human right. Why should you get to decide that you have a special human right to a “random stranger”'s attention? What gives me the right to override some woman’s right to mind her own business when she should be attending to my sexual needs? ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2024, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-choosing-to-disengage-from-emotional-involvement-with-women-and-bears/1001627/183 "2024-05-18T00:15:01Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > People in general used to throw parties and host dinners and just generally provide occasions where other people could meet, mingle and socialize as private individuals. That’s a point. I almost said, ‘Throw a neighborhood party and invite all the neighbors, of all ages and genders’ – but while that’s still occasionally done around here (though even here less often than it used to be), I was afraid of getting an answer along the lines of ‘My neighbors would all think I was really weird for doing that and they wouldn’t come!’ > [@velomont](#): > > But that isn’t some sort of human right. I don’t think that @Kimstu meant that it is. Nobody was or is required to go to a party. But people who do go to a party expect to talk to other people at a party; and it’s not rude to start talking to somebody else at a party. (Though it is rude to insistently follow them around the whole time after they’ve excused themselves to go to the john or get another drink and then headed off in another direction instead of returning to continue talking with you.) ---
**Author:** ![velomont](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/8491ac/32.png) [@velomont](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/velomont)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2024, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-choosing-to-disengage-from-emotional-involvement-with-women-and-bears/1001627/184 "2024-05-18T00:39:03Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > I don’t think that @Kimstu meant that it is. Not all of it, however, if it’s a woman you just happened to have met (as shown below) “at the grocery, at the park”, without some reasonable context, just doesn’t seem quite right to me. > [@bump](#): > > At some point, you DO have to get outside your comfort zone and go talk to them, whether it’s in a bar, at church, at work, at the grocery, at the park, etc ---
**Author:** ![MyFootsZZZ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/myfootszzz/32/12580_2.png) [@MyFootsZZZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MyFootsZZZ)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2024, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-choosing-to-disengage-from-emotional-involvement-with-women-and-bears/1001627/185 "2024-05-18T00:46:50Z")
I may be wrong here, but I don’t know if I think it’s bad for people to approach others with the intent of possibly having the chance to get to know them. I think the problem is that it’s almost expected for people, (men especially) to take a “no” personally. ---
**Author:** ![P-man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/p-man/32/3606_2.png) [@P-man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/P-man)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2024, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-choosing-to-disengage-from-emotional-involvement-with-women-and-bears/1001627/186 "2024-05-18T00:49:37Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Nobody was or is required to go to a party. But people who do go to a party expect to talk to other people at a party; and it’s not rude to start talking to somebody else at a party. If someone hadn’t done that I might still be single and approaching 60. It’s harder for some of us, but that doesn’t mean we’re entitled to anything. Dunno how I’d do today. I think I’d probably get some first dates on dating apps, but second dates would probably be just as rare as they were in my twenties. That’s on me. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2024, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-choosing-to-disengage-from-emotional-involvement-with-women-and-bears/1001627/187 "2024-05-18T01:12:34Z")
> [@velomont](#): > > Not all of it, however, if it’s a woman you just happened to have met (as shown below) “at the grocery, at the park”, without some reasonable context, just doesn’t seem quite right to me. Yes, but that’s @bump, not @Kimstu. ---
**Author:** ![velomont](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/8491ac/32.png) [@velomont](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/velomont)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2024, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-choosing-to-disengage-from-emotional-involvement-with-women-and-bears/1001627/188 "2024-05-18T01:14:50Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Yes, but that’s @bump, not @Kimstu. So it is; my apologies to anyone impacted. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2024, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-choosing-to-disengage-from-emotional-involvement-with-women-and-bears/1001627/189 "2024-05-18T02:16:20Z")
> [@velomont](#): > > > [@Kimstu](#): > > > > And getting random strangers to decide that they want to meet you is a challenging task > > But that isn’t some sort of human right. Why should you get to decide that you have a special human right to a “random stranger”'s attention? You don’t. That’s what makes it challenging to get random strangers to spontaneously decide that they want to meet you. If you’re not going to rudely assume that you can demand a random stranger’s attention at your own convenience, your options are pretty much limited to the following: - Situations where random strangers have already agreed to consider one another’s requests for attention. Namely, singles events, dating sites, and the like. - Situations where random strangers are interacting for a non-social reason (work, other life duties, what have you), and are struck by a spontaneous mutual liking that makes them want to pay attention to each other. In the first type of situation, you have to be distinctive and appealing enough, in a crowd of random strangers, to inspire a desire to meet you in at least one random stranger that you in turn would like to meet. That can be challenging. In the second type of situation, getting a random stranger to want to meet you is even more challenging, because there’s really nothing you can do to bring about that off-chance of spontaneous liking. Truly mutual “clicking” between strangers in non-social situations is pretty rare. In more traditional types of private socializing, on the other hand, curated groups of random acquaintances and strangers (curated by the hosts) were brought together for the specific purpose of paying attention to one another in a social way. Even if a random stranger at that dinner party didn’t already want to meet you personally, she was going to meet you (and everybody else there) and spend some time socializing with you. Everybody attending such events, as thorny\_locust noted, had tacitly agreed to devote some time and attention to any and all of the other attendees, rather than just going about their own individual business. (There were occasional exceptions, of course, when one attendee disapproved of another attendee for some reason and requested mutual acquaintances not to introduce them, as that was a person whom they did not care to know, as the expression was. But that sort of shunning was a fairly Big Deal socially, and was not lightly undertaken.) That was how you got to meet random strangers and talk to them, without needing to be so instantly attractive that they spontaneously chose to seek you out to pay attention to you. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2024, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-choosing-to-disengage-from-emotional-involvement-with-women-and-bears/1001627/190 "2024-05-18T12:43:03Z")
Where do y’all live? Because I’m in Michigan and random strangers talk to one another all the time. Yes, even on the street. The idea that people can’t strike up a conversation with a stranger - that’s just not the culture where I live. I grew up in a rural part of the state and now I live in a metro area that feels pretty suburban, only with a lot of traffic. Now I’m actually a shy person. I will not start up a conversation with a stranger. But if they talk to me, I will happily talk to them. I make a big distinction between starting a friendly conversation and harassment. And if someone starts a friendly conversation that turns into a request for a date, I will not be offended as long as they accept my “no.” ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2024, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-choosing-to-disengage-from-emotional-involvement-with-women-and-bears/1001627/191 "2024-05-18T13:52:04Z")
Heh. I still throw parties. Not all the time, but it’s something i do. I get invited to parties, too. I also meet people at square dance events. (I go to “single-friendly” square dances, so i often end up partnering someone i didn’t already know, and it’s customary to make small talk between squaring up and when the dance begins.) My advice to singles looking to date is 1. try dating sites. I haven’t used them, but i know an awful lot of people who have found partners that way. 2. get involved in activities that encourage social interaction between participants. That could be social dancing, or an adult ed language class, or working at a soup kitchen, or… The key things is to pick an activity you will enjoy even if you don’t find anyone to date. Both because you will have to invest a lot of time, and ought to enjoy it, and also because then you are likely to have something in common with other people there. 3. make friends and meet people who aren’t potential dates. There are a lot more of them out there, and it gives you practice socializing. Also, non-romantic friends are good for mental health and are generally a plus. As a side benefit, some of them might invite you to parties or introduce you to suitable singles. But even if they don’t, at least you have a social life. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-choosing-to-disengage-from-emotional-involvement-with-women-and-bears/1001627.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-choosing-to-disengage-from-emotional-involvement-with-women-and-bears/1001627.md?page=10)