# Men going their own way (MGTOW) **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 20, 2015, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022 "2015-06-20T19:21:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![CinnamonBabka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/bbce88/32.png) [@CinnamonBabka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CinnamonBabka)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/221 "2015-06-22T19:30:41Z")
Almost sounds narcissistic to me. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/222 "2015-06-22T19:35:27Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > So a group of men bring up a number of valid complaints about the behavior of women in our modern society. This board dismisses them by simply saying “obviously, these men can’t get laid”. But that’s exactly what their complaints are primarily about - the behavior of women in _relationships_ including _marriages_, which you wouldn’t have much grounds to complain about if you hadn’t been in one. > > I am currently separated from a wife who cheated on me - but not only did she cheat on me, she claimed (and still maintains) that _her_ actions were entirely _my fault_ because I did not always want to have sex when she did. Sadly, I’m dead serious. She _genuinely believes_ that a man should never refuse a woman wanting sex and it’s some kind of grievous insult to her to do so (but of course this doesn’t work the other way - she always reserves the right to say no). There were a number of times I would be exhausted, trying to avoid sex, and she flat-out raped me. If I got soft at any point she’d go into a rage and a big, inevitable (verbal) fight would follow if not then, then the next day. And _I’d_ end up apologizing to _her_ just to placate her and keep the peace. So most of the time I tried to perform even when I didn’t want to just to avoid the headache of that. > > She also ended up burning all the money I had saved even though before we got married she swore she’d get a job and contribute to paying half the expenses. She put very little effort into that though, eventually getting some part-time work (after nearly a year), but keeping the money she made 100% to herself and never contributing a dime toward the bills, because that’s the “man’s responsibility”. > > Women like this are out there, and they aren’t even that rare. They live in a world where everything is entitled to them and they have zero accountability or responsibility for their own actions. While I don’t think all feminists are like that, I do think that this is a problematic cultural attitude and modern “feminism” has contributed to it by making women feel like they are these oppressed victims who _deserve_ so much just for existing. **Rigamarole** : I’m sorry man. She sounds like a real bitch. One of the toxic things about feminism is that it teaches women they have choices, but not responsibilities. And of course, that everything is somebody else’s fault. You can’t change her. You can’t change the past. You can’t change society. The only thing you can change is yourself, and the choices you make in the future. Honestly, and this is not a put-down: you sound like you’re suffering from White Knight Syndrome. (I’ve been one most of my life, and “play” the part, even now. So I know of that which I speak.) Good news: you didn’t mention kids. Hopefully you’re still young. And you can learn from this and move on. Mourn what you’ve lost. Then concentrate on becoming a better person, learning from the past, and making better choices in the future. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/223 "2015-06-22T19:40:48Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > One of the toxic things about feminism is that it teaches women they have choices, but not responsibilities. This is not an accurate characterization of feminism as I understand it. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/224 "2015-06-22T19:48:03Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > **Rigamarole** : . One of the toxic things about feminism is that it teaches women they have choices, but not responsibilities. That’s a common flaw of almost every “rights” movement I’ve noticed. There is a certain percentage (larger than I would like) of group X that wants the rights but is rather light on the responsibilities that also go with that “right”. And I’m not talking about just feminism or race. Smokers, boaters, hikers, fisherman, land owners, home owners, dog owners, gun owners, workers, employers, and on and on. Everybody likes harping on their rights. The attendant responsibilities not so much. ---
**Author:** ![SmellMyWort](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea5d25/32.png) [@SmellMyWort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmellMyWort)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/225 "2015-06-22T19:50:52Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This is not an accurate characterization of feminism as I understand it. But it seems like a pretty accurate characterization of MGTOW. ---
**Author:** ![KAndre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@KAndre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KAndre)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/226 "2015-06-22T19:55:48Z")
Maybe this is just my blinders, but what I’m \*\*not \*\*seeing is that women really have it any better. Most women I know in relationships aren’t getting their needs met any more than men are - many have shitty jobs and relationships and educations. Most single moms I know aren’t getting rich off child support - if they can collect it, they are still struggling to make ends meet. And most women really can’t just up and fuck anyone they want. (oh no! Fat/old/unattractive chicks wanting to get laid? Eww!) And I have yet to meet anyone who is not some kind of sociopath who thinks they have choices without responsibilities. Not men or women. Do these MTGOW really think they have it worse? That all women are not only pwning everything but actively working against them? From the link on the “marriage quiz”, the 7th response is > [@](#): > > My pickle…The woman is good gal, works hsrd at work, brings in good money. Just a fat sexless slob. hence the mistress. How…interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/227 "2015-06-22T20:03:08Z")
I had actually never heard of this sort of thing until this thread. Nor did I have any idea what “MRA” stood for and had to look it up. All I can see in my head is Alfalfa from Lil Rascals and the “He Man Woman Haters Club” or whatever it was. It’s just too comical for me to wrap my head around. ---
**Author:** ![Chauve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5daacb/32.png) [@Chauve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chauve)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/228 "2015-06-22T20:08:33Z")
> [@KAndre](#): > > […]Do these MTGOW really think they have it worse? […] Just want to clarify a point based on what I see at the MGTOW website: I don’t think MGTOW is about “worse” or “better.” Instead, it’s about “good enough.” IOW, “Is your current life good enough? Or are you sick of sacrificing for others and getting too little in return?” To compare feminism vs. MGTOW: Feminism can sometimes play a comparison or zero-sum game: “Men have it better than women, so we need to level the playing field.” But MGTOW is more like a mid-life crisis thing: “Men, are you really satisfied with your life? If not, it’s entirely your choice to bail and start fresh. We won’t blame you; hell, we’ll support you.” Women will retort that men bailing out of their marriages affects them too, of course. But at its core, MGTOW really doesn’t care about comparing men or women. Rather, it’s about self-fulfillment: “Are you tired of slaving for others? If you can pay the divorce tab, you can start fresh. Just do it smarter next time.” As for the “interesting” 7th response: Those guys don’t mince words. No use trying to shame them about their selfish attitudes; that message board is all about plain speaking and being honest about what’s happening in your life. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/229 "2015-06-22T20:09:33Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > But these MGTOW’s are claiming that the problem is women. They apparently don’t consider the possibility that the reason they’re not getting laid/dates/married is because they’re flawed. As far as they’re seeing things, they’re perfect and it’s women who are flawed. > > And it’s a movement. They’re not claiming that one woman is a problem or some women are problems. They’re writing off the whole gender. All women are the problem. > > So, if that’s the case, why are other men getting laid/dates/married? If women as a gender are unreasonable and are refusing to see men, wouldn’t all men be affected by it? But that’s not the case. There clearly are men that women are willing to date, to have sex with, and to get married to. > > Which leads to the conclusion that the problem these MGTOW’s have is [themselves](https://xkcd.com/1027/). **Little Nemo** , you linked a cartoon about pick-up artists. I don’t know there’s a way to get through to you, but I’m going to take a shot: Imagine there was a thread about feminism, and someone consistently did things like link to cartoons about gold-diggers. Now I want to be careful here, because MGTOW is not an MRA (according to them) and they’re certainly not the male version of feminism (whatever that would be). I’m not saying that. What I’m saying is, if someone did what you’re doing - refused to learn anything about the topic, while taking every opportunity to derail the thread - would you assume they had an ulterior motive? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/230 "2015-06-22T20:14:09Z")
> [@Chauve](#): > > I saw little or nothing about custody issues in there. I’m sure the subject comes up; I only skimmed superficially. But it’s not like there was a big section devoted specifically to that. > > That’s kind of a point I’ve been making earlier in this thread. We discuss MTGOW here at SDMB, but we discuss it from the point of view of rape statistics or custody issues. In fact, those kinds of things aren’t really what that website is about. The website is more about one-on-one face-to-face issues: Rants about people crapping on each other in daily interactions. At least, that’s the case with the forum part. (I didn’t investigate the blogs yet; that may have more to do with “societal” or legal ramifications. I just haven’t had time to check.) I was basing the custody conversation on an earlier thread where someone said that was one of the complaints they found on the website, the bias against men in custody. ---
**Author:** ![Chauve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5daacb/32.png) [@Chauve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chauve)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/231 "2015-06-22T20:23:50Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > I was basing the custody conversation on an earlier thread where someone said that was one of the complaints they found on the website, the bias against men in custody. Fair enough. I would expect there is _some_ complaining about custody issues somewhere at the MGTOW website. But it didn’t jump out at me based on a quick survey of the message board there. And I did look for it. Actually, I saw lots of MGTOW guys complaining that they didn’t want children under any circumstances and were afraid that a girlfriend might trap them with an unplanned pregnancy. In the posts I saw, a lot of the men regarded children as a trap and a burden. As another poster here pointed out, I think custody issues and other legal questions are more of an MRA thing. By comparison, MGTOW is more about self-fulfillment. MGTOW is a bit whinier and more about personal quality of life issues, from what I see. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/232 "2015-06-22T20:33:13Z")
> [@Chauve](#): > > Fair enough. I would expect there is _some_ complaining about custody issues somewhere at the MGTOW website. But it didn’t jump out at me based on a quick survey of the message board there. And I did look for it. > > Actually, I saw lots of MGTOW guys complaining that they didn’t want children under any circumstances and were afraid that a girlfriend might trap them with an unplanned pregnancy. In the posts I saw, a lot of the men regarded children as a trap and a burden. > > As another poster here pointed out, I think custody issues and other legal questions are more of an MRA thing. By comparison, MGTOW is more about self-fulfillment. MGTOW is a bit whinier and more about personal quality of life issues, from what I see. Correction to my post: I meant earlier post, not earlier thread. I think you might have understood my garbled message, for which I thank you! You know the old trope that when women complain, men offer solutions but women just want someone to listen? First, I’ve never felt that was entirely accurate. Second, hoo boy! I’m in that stereotypically “man” role of wanting to offer solutions to the problem of the unwanted children. In any case, I’ve got no issue if someone just wants to hang out and complain about the stupid things that are driving them crazy. I do feel like your take on the website and motives is different than the take of some of the other people in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/233 "2015-06-22T20:38:26Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > Can you point to where they are complaining about not getting laid/dates/married? Or is it merely something you slip in between the lines? Certainly they seem to be actively shunning getting married. Mainly they seem to be thinking committed intimate relationship with women isn’t worth the trouble. > > Mostly it seems to be the male side of the often heard: “Where have all the good men gone.” The good men and the good women are out there, and the good women will value a man who live by the principle of him defining his own worth after his own standards and not being subservient to her – which is exactly what they propose men should do. Quoted for truth. If I can add something, I’ll also say: women may say they want subservient men (yes, I know they don’t use that word) but they don’t. They want strong men. If I can paraphrase something from MGTOW: you learn about women by watching what they do, not listening to what they say. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/234 "2015-06-22T20:42:49Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > And, frankly, MGTOW doesn’t want to be neutered, house-trained, or domesticated. They want to learn to be men on their own terms. And they want to learn from other men. Not women. See the problem for me ( if we can call it that ), is that try as I might I just can’t muster any empathy for the above notion. It just comes off as pathetic. But then I think men who are obsessed with the manly man thing are a little pathetic generally ( same goes for women too caught up in the girly girl thing for that matter ). So there you go. As a single middle-aged white guy I guess I _should_ fall into their target demographic. But the vaguely schizophrenic alpha male/Nice Guy posturing, the farcical appeals to race ( _relentless mockery of white men on the basis of their sex and skin colour_ - puh-leeze ), the whiny bitterness. I just don’t see how anybody can wade through that sewage to bother to get to “no, no - sure they’re overstating things, but if just ignore the angry ranting and offensive comments and dial all their rhetoric back 40% they make a couple of arguably okay points. Maybe.” So if you have to go through the trouble of ignoring/dialing back half or more of what they say are you even ending up with what they’re actually saying? I’d tend to think not ;). ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/235 "2015-06-22T20:43:20Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > If I can add something, I’ll also say: women may say they want subservient men (yes, I know they don’t use that word) but they don’t. It’s strange that you claim women say they want subservient men, admit they don’t say they want subservient men, then claim to know what women want. Huh? ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/236 "2015-06-22T20:49:52Z")
There is some uncomfortable racism on those links too, like the poser of white guy messages girl about bands and she is bored, black guy messages hey wanna fuck and she goes sploosh. Maybe she just isn’t interested in bands. ---
**Author:** ![Chauve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5daacb/32.png) [@Chauve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chauve)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/237 "2015-06-22T20:58:07Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > […] As a single middle-aged white guy I guess I _should_ fall into their target demographic.[…] I don’t think you’re in their target demographic at all. As I said in an earlier post, when I was reading through the message board there it was like sitting in on a group therapy session for “walking wounded” from the relationship wars. There’s a lot of fear, anger, desperation, etc. there. So if you feel scorn for them, then you’re obviously not one of them. I’m not their target demographic either. But having been through two divorces and a mid-life crisis, I can feel some empathy for where their heads are at. And, as I said, I even think they’re benign. Despite all the heated rhetoric, they’re really just talking about taking some time off, rather than coming out of one failed relationship and diving right into another. That’s actually kind of a healthy concept. Anyway, cut through the heated rhetoric of a segment of the population that’s in pain, and it’s not such an awful concept. Self-reliance, independence, and all that. ---
**Author:** ![CinnamonBabka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/bbce88/32.png) [@CinnamonBabka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CinnamonBabka)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/238 "2015-06-22T21:04:58Z")
> [@grude](#): > > There is some uncomfortable racism on those links too, like the poser of white guy messages girl about bands and she is bored, black guy messages hey wanna fuck and she goes sploosh. > > Maybe she just isn’t interested in bands. Maybe she just wanted to get laid. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/239 "2015-06-22T21:17:18Z")
So when women are involved in serial bad relationships with bad guys, we blame the woman. But when it’s happening to men, instead of looking within, they blame the entire gender! Sure that makes sense! If you’re in a shitty, head game filled relationship, where you’re getting screwed over and it doesn’t seem worth it, then move on! If you continually find the same dynamic manifests I’m going to wager a guess you’re the freaking problem! Same advice, male or female! ---
**Author:** ![Chauve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5daacb/32.png) [@Chauve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chauve)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/240 "2015-06-22T21:25:11Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > So when women are involved in serial bad relationships with bad guys, we blame the woman. But when it’s happening to men, instead of looking within, they blame the entire gender! > > Sure that makes sense! > > If you’re in a shitty, head game filled relationship, where you’re getting screwed over and it doesn’t seem worth it, then move on! If you continually find the same dynamic manifests I’m going to wager a guess you’re the freaking problem! Same advice, male or female! I agree that there’s a lot of finger-pointing at women on that website. But if you went to a website for women coming out of failed relationships, it would be the same thing: The women would be trashing men, burning pictures of their exes, etc. It’s just human nature. Anyway, I’ll think I’ll bow out of this thread. It seems that some of the women (and some men as well) over here at SDMB are simply determined to take offense at what they see over there. That MGTOW website is never going to be PC enough for them. Meanwhile, the guys over there at MGTOW don’t really care what women think of them. So I guess there’s no need to defend them. 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022.md?page=13)