# Men going their own way (MGTOW) **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 20, 2015, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022 "2015-06-20T19:21:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![CinnamonBabka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/bbce88/32.png) [@CinnamonBabka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CinnamonBabka)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/241 "2015-06-22T21:37:16Z")
> [@Chauve](#): > > the guys over there at MGTOW don’t really care what women think of them. I’m getting the vibe it’s less “I don’t care what women think of me” and more “women aren’t in a position to judge me”. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/242 "2015-06-22T21:43:40Z")
I think you’re wrong. A board for women in bad relationships would be all kinds of "Kick him to the curb NOW! And a boatload of, “Well you’re an idiot for staying!”, I’m pretty sure! ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/243 "2015-06-22T21:50:30Z")
I think a board for women in bad relationships would likely be more of an “attack men” model than “attack women.” After all, if it’s appealing to women, it usually won’t be just an attack on women. And I’m okay with support in the form of “Oh, I’m so sorry. Is it possible this is all a misunderstanding?” and “Oh, yeah, your doofy boyfriend is a poopyhead!” I’m not okay with support in the form of “Men suck and should be exterminated!” I’m sure boards out there cover all of these extremes and everything in between (I don’t spend much time hanging out on relationship boards, though I have seen quite a few). ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/244 "2015-06-22T22:07:31Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > And I’m okay with support in the form of “Oh, I’m so sorry. Is it possible this is all a misunderstanding?” and “Oh, yeah, your doofy boyfriend is a poopyhead!” I’m not okay with support in the form of “Men suck and should be exterminated!” How about “you need to start living for yourself and find out what makes you happy”? ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/245 "2015-06-22T22:08:39Z")
Chauve: You’ve taken the opposite approach from me. I started with the blogs, and some videos. I’ve only just started reading the forums. Having said that, I was taken by this one: > [@](#): > > I just spent 18 hours in Jail for assault. Apparently hit my wife. I didn’t but they didn’t care (UK). I’m charged with assault and out on bail. Wife borderline/Narcissist. Not allowed contacting her until trial which is good, but hear through people she wants me back bla bla, marriage counselling etc. How do you stay strong, been married for more than 20 years but always controlled and manipulated. She uses my love for our children including 3 year old to manipulate me … No money, not easy…Need strenght There’s some support comments and some modestly good advice, and then this: > [@](#): > > Thanks for all the comments so far. My biggest fear is to be weak and walk back home eventually and crawl back under her rule and live the rest of my life in misery and under constant threat of some other crazy thing she would pull because I don’t behave the way she wants me to. She’s already started to text me with love messages etc. Of course I’m not replying, I would break bail conditions. But I need emotional strength. Then there’s more support, and not so great advice, and then this: > [@](#): > > So this is the advice I would have given myself if I could go back in time. Slightly different situation (no marriage, no kids) but I hope it helps. > > [ul] > [li]You are alone in this. Nobody gives a shit about you. There is no support or safety net.[/li][li]Recognize that it is over and that there is no turning back. It was probably a long time coming. Ignore the texts and other attempts at contact no matter how much you want to respond. You need to look after yourself now.[/li][li]Try to look at the arrest as a good thing if you can – the forced separation is exactly what is needed.[/li][li]Take responsibility. Understand that you should have walked away a long time ago and that things were beyond repair. Don’t let yourself feel like a victim even if you have every right to. Being a victim means weakness. You need to be strong.[/li][li]Know that the system is in favour of women and use that to your advantage if possible. I avoided a criminal record because the system would rather have had me plead guilty and hand me a conditional discharge than have me plead not guilty and turn a woman into a criminal.[/li][li]Go through all the counselling and anger management bullshit like a dog on a leash. Just do it with a smile on your face and say that “you’ve changed your ways”. It is the path of least resistance and once it is behind you it will be forgotten.[/li][li]Understand that this won’t be over any time soon. The fog will eventually lift a bit, but it might not ever go away. It takes time.[/li][li]If I had kids I’d like to think the above would not change. Look after yourself first and foremost – the stronger you are the more you can do for your children in the long run.[/li][/ul] > > Take care man. You’ll make it through this. Which is actually pretty good advice. What I tell my clients (both male and female) is: once someone calls the police on you, the relationship is over. (They don’t always listen to me, of course, but that’s what I tell them.) The important thing is to do whatever it takes to get a dismissal, because a conviction for family violence is a life-long ball & chain you will never ever get rid of. (Which is absolutely true, in my jurisdiction. As one example, if a man gets a conviction - or a deferred adjudication - he can forget about getting anything like an equitable resolution in family court.) What I don’t always tell them, is that if the client is a woman, I already know it’s going to be a dismissal. I usually get dismissals for the men as well, although it takes longer, and often winds up being more expensive. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/246 "2015-06-22T22:09:10Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > How about “you need to start living for yourself and find out what makes you happy”? Sounds like good advice to me. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/247 "2015-06-22T22:11:40Z")
> [@CinnamonBabka](#): > > Nah. I’m bitter, but not bitter enough to blame society for my problems. I’d be fine if these guys were blaming society. They aren’t. They’re blaming women! That’s so bitter, it turns litmus paper scarlet. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/248 "2015-06-22T22:15:48Z")
Sorry, but this is not just some friendly self help group trying to make people into more fulfilled humans. I am reading the forums right now. Let’s look at the first page. The first post is a send up of a women’s magazine article that implies that women as a whole are dumb, lazy and manipulative. Then there is one that ridicules Anita Sarksesian, the video game commentator who has been subject to death and rape threats for discussing gender stereotypes in gaming. Next is one about how women have “psycho rat dogs”, which quickly devolves into just insulting women. Then there is a sort of manifesto that spends ample time musing about “sluts” and the like. Then there is some “horraying” of the guy who literally cut all the household items in half after a divorce, and a Reddit post about how women force men to leave their children. Then an article on how women ordered to pay child support do so less than men (which likely discounts the number of women with sole or joint custody). Then one about “the behavior pattern of women”, which goes about as you’d expect. Interspersed are a few viral news articles, a couple of posts advocating some kind of real estate hustle, and one guy who inexplicably posts article after article about murders and animal cruelty caused by women. He does mix it up with an article about a man who behead a woman-- which the poster quips “may have gone a bit too far.” That’s it. No self-esteem camp. No group hugs or howling at the moon or dressing up like Harrison Ford. No real relationship advice. Just a long, boring, set of post after post about the evils of women. That’s nearly 100% of the topical posts. Frankly, if you substituted the minority of your choice, it’d very easily read as a standard issue hate forum. I don’t see this as benign, and this isn’t the kind of “help” that people with emotional problems need. This is the kind of “help” that whips them up into a frenzy until eventually someone hurts someone. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/249 "2015-06-22T22:38:22Z")
[![](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/6ul-cZyuYq4/hqdefault.jpg?sqp=-oaymwEmCOADEOgC8quKqQMa8AEB-AH-BIAC4AOKAgwIABABGGIgZShOMA8=&rs=AOn4CLAnOfs07OpFYZHZsVIkVIAT6fG6CA "Fleetwood Mac - Go Your Own Way") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ul-cZyuYq4) ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/250 "2015-06-22T22:56:06Z")
> [@Chauve](#): > > As a guy, I don’t see the site (or at least the foruming portion of it) as overly anti-woman or even anti-feminist. It’s more about mutual support. At its worst, it’s a lot of “guys encouraging other guys to act poorly” in reaction to what they see as a cold, harsh relationship world. Uh, is that somehow not bad enough? I’ve been joking around in this thread, but in all seriousness, I find it disturbing that your _defense_ of this group is that “at worst” all they do is advocate behaving badly in response to perceived romantic slights. That’s the sort of thinking that led Elliot Rodger to murder six people and wound 14 others. While I certainly hope that most MGTOWs would never go to that extreme, even if their bad behavior never rises above the level of garden-variety obnoxiousness then this group is still (according to you) encouraging its members to make the world a worse place. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/251 "2015-06-22T23:11:55Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > See the problem for me ( if we can call it that ), is that try as I might I just can’t muster any empathy for the above notion. It just comes off as pathetic. But then I think men who are obsessed with the manly man thing are a little pathetic generally ( same goes for women too caught up in the girly girl thing for that matter ). > > So there you go. As a single middle-aged white guy I guess I _should_ fall into their target demographic. But the vaguely schizophrenic alpha male/Nice Guy posturing, the farcical appeals to race ( _relentless mockery of white men on the basis of their sex and skin colour_ - puh-leeze ), the whiny bitterness. I just don’t see how anybody can wade through that sewage to bother to get to “no, no - sure they’re overstating things, but if just ignore the angry ranting and offensive comments and dial all their rhetoric back 40% they make a couple of arguably okay points. Maybe.” > > So if you have to go through the trouble of ignoring/dialing back half or more of what they say are you even ending up with what they’re actually saying? I’d tend to think not ;). Yeah pretty much this. In looking at the website bellyaches these guys come across as social weaklings too clumsy and awkward at the mating game to get any play. I understand they are frustrated at the hand life has dealt them re their looks and clunky social skills etc., but this petulant bellyaching makes you want to slap them around and tell them to shape up. If a man wants a woman and he is not a handsome, well hung, alpha male gazillionaire he has to develop some decent interactional skills that lets him come across as decent, interesting guy with a backbone and not some desperate, mopey, autistic jackass. If you’re not willing to work on developing those skills who is supposed to feel sorry for you? One of the repeated complaints on that site is evil women who after and initial date or meeting do not call or text you back or drop out of touch when you are trying to set up a meeting as if going out with you is some business project they should be invested in completing. And they howl and obsess over this as if it’s some huge character flaw and yet they keep texting and phoning and texting and phoning the ignorer. You want to pick these guys up and shake them and yell “What the hell are you doing you moron?! Catch a clue! She’s not interested! Move on!” And I guarantee you that doing this would not help, like rats wanting the cocaine pellet they would be back at it as soon as you finished chastising them. “Why won’t she call or return my messages?! Women are evil!!!” ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/252 "2015-06-22T23:20:27Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Then there is one that ridicules Anita Sarksesian, the video game commentator who has been subject to death and rape threats for discussing gender stereotypes in gaming. That’s one view of Sarkeesian. Here’s another one: [link](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ds0Au7kfQa0). Then there’s [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRVty6hc1yQ). Which would be funny, if it wasn’t so sad. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/253 "2015-06-22T23:23:33Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > Oh, we’re “throwing money” at education. Just the thing the Republican opponents of public education claim. So, you’re definitely one of those misers who wants to hold onto His Tax Dollars instead of contributing to the public good. If boys are flunking out, make the girls pay. > > I began my public education back in the 1950’s–your & **Starving Artist** ’s Last Perfect Era. Boys didn’t get to run roughshod in school back then, either. It’s astonishing how these kinds of threads bring out perfect psychics, who can distill a person’s inner motivations from just a few sentences on a message board. Or is it just that you have three or four mental pigeonholes that people fit into and you’ve already lumped me into one of them? At any rate, no, I don’t think that all education funding is just “throwing money”. I had been talking specifically about improving boy’s education. And I think the problems in that there are not specifically related to money but more about styles of learning. This isn’t about letting boys run roughshod but rather figuring out alternatives to forcing them to sit still for hours doing mundane busywork. This approach harms both sexes but the evidence suggests that it harms boys more. And seriously, I have no idea where this 50’s thing comes from. That’s about the very worst era I can imagine being put in. I’m not particularly interested in stereotypically “masculine” things and was very lucky to be born in a time when there were alternatives. It’s still not great, but it’s moving in the right direction. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/254 "2015-06-22T23:41:36Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > At any rate, no, I don’t think that all education funding is just “throwing money”. I had been talking specifically about improving boy’s education. And I think the problems in that there are not specifically related to money but more about styles of learning. This isn’t about letting boys run roughshod but rather figuring out alternatives to forcing them to sit still for hours doing mundane busywork. This approach harms both sexes but the evidence suggests that it harms boys more. > > And seriously, I have no idea where this 50’s thing comes from. That’s about the very worst era I can imagine being put in. I’m not particularly interested in stereotypically “masculine” things and was very lucky to be born in a time when there were alternatives. It’s still not great, but it’s moving in the right direction. People are saying that the mode of education where you’re told to sit down and listen to the teacher is nothing new. It was especially prevalent when education favored boys and men. What changed? ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/255 "2015-06-22T23:43:36Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > That’s one view of Sarkeesian. Here’s another one: [link](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ds0Au7kfQa0). > > Then there’s [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRVty6hc1yQ). Which would be funny, if it wasn’t so sad. So she received 157 abusive tweets including 13 death threats, 15 threats of rape and 31 assorted violent wishes a week because people don’t agree with her video game reviews? And the top phrases in these tweets just happen to be, in order, “bitch”, “cunt” and “whore/slut/ho”? Yeah, I’m sure that this charming collection isn’t sexist at all, just some cheerful banter about a fun hobby: > **[One Week of Harassment on Twitter](https://femfreq.tumblr.com/post/109319269825/one-week-of-harassment-on-twitter)** > > Ever since I began my Tropes vs Women in Video Games project, two and a half years ago, I've been harassed on a daily basis by irate gamers angry at my critiques of sexism in video games. It can some… ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/256 "2015-06-22T23:49:22Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > People are saying that the mode of education where you’re told to sit down and listen to the teacher is nothing new. It was especially prevalent when education favored boys and men. What changed? What changed is that feminism removed (some of) the obstacles to girl’s education. I’m making up numbers here, but just to demonstrate my point. Let’s suppose that everyone starts at 100% and that Shut Up And Learn style teaching harms boys more than girls. So in the 50’s: Boys: 100% - 40% (from SUAL) = 60% Girls: 100% - 20% (from SUAL) - 50% (from sexism) = 30% Okay, boys are way ahead. Now for today: Boys: 100% - 40% = 60% (no change) Girls: 100% - 20% - 5% (from decreased sexism) = 75% Now, girls are noticeably ahead. Reducing one big obstacle to education exposed another. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/257 "2015-06-22T23:54:09Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > That’s one view of Sarkeesian. Here’s another one: [link](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ds0Au7kfQa0). > > Then there’s [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRVty6hc1yQ). Which would be funny, if it wasn’t so sad. the difference is that Anita Sarkeesian can make a point in a reasoned manner, and can back up her claims. This guy? _This_ is the best you can come up with as a response? ---
**Author:** ![robertliguori](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@robertliguori](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robertliguori)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/258 "2015-06-22T23:55:53Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > So she received 157 abusive tweets including 13 death threats, 15 threats of rape and 31 assorted violent wishes a week because people don’t agree with her video game reviews? And the top phrases in these tweets just happen to be, in order, “bitch”, “cunt” and “whore/slut/ho”? > > Yeah, I’m sure that this charming collection isn’t sexist at all, just some cheerful banter about a fun hobby: > > [Feminist Frequency • One Week of Harassment on Twitter](http://femfreq.tumblr.com/post/109319269825/one-week-of-harassment-on-twitter) This genuinely sucks. Isn’t this a good reason to at least try to consider alternatives to “Well, I know that my side is justified and good and their side is wrong and bad, and so when we hurl abuse at them it’s justified and when they hurl abuse at us it’s naked aggression!”? I mean, the language people are using on Anita is beyond the pale even before the goddamn death threats. There isn’t equivalence there to “Haha, MGTOW are losers who can’t get laid!” But that’s not the worst of what’s being said. I mean, Solanas is an easy target, but if your standard really is “Can I find examples of people of this movement being terrible and advocating for purges of their ideological enemies?”, well, no movement is righteous. Isn’t that even more reason to address people as people, rather than a collection of ideological labels? ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2015, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/259 "2015-06-22T23:56:58Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > What changed is that feminism removed (some of) the obstacles to girl’s education. No, but specifically, how? What did people do to remove obstacles to girls’ education, and how did that adversely affect boys’ education? ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/260 "2015-06-23T00:04:26Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Originally Posted by LinusK View Post > > And, frankly, MGTOW doesn’t want to be neutered, house-trained, or domesticated. They want to learn to be men on their own terms. And they want to learn from other men. Not women. > > See the problem for me ( if we can call it that ), is that try as I might I just can’t muster any empathy for the above notion. It just comes off as pathetic. But then I think men who are obsessed with the manly man thing are a little pathetic generally ( same goes for women too caught up in the girly girl thing for that matter ). > > So there you go. As a single middle-aged white guy I guess I _should_ fall into their target demographic. But the vaguely schizophrenic alpha male/Nice Guy posturing, the farcical appeals to race ( _relentless mockery of white men on the basis of their sex and skin colour_ - puh-leeze ), the whiny bitterness. I just don’t see how anybody can wade through that sewage to bother to get to “no, no - sure they’re overstating things, but if just ignore the angry ranting and offensive comments and dial all their rhetoric back 40% they make a couple of arguably okay points. Maybe.” > > So if you have to go through the trouble of ignoring/dialing back half or more of what they say are you even ending up with what they’re actually saying? I’d tend to think not ;). Well, you’re quoting me, so I’m guessing you’re addressing me. However, I’ve never encouraged anybody to wade through sewage, or to dial back anything, so I think that part might be addressed to somebody else. As far as “empathy toward the above notion” you are of course free to have your own opinion. For my part, my opinions on a number of things have changed over the years. They continue to change now, and I expect they’ll change in the future. However, my opinion now is that men really do want to learn how to be men. I know that goes against the androgynous society project, but so long as many people - both men and women - don’t want to be androgynous, that project’s not going anywhere anyway. And again, my opinion is, many people, both men and women, do not want to be androgynous. (For those that do - go ahead. I have zero problem with other people being androgynous. It’s just that I don’t think it’s the solution for everyone.) Anyway, the problem, from my point of view, is there is almost no guidance, anymore, for boys who want to become men. And I use the word “boys” not just for actual boys, but for males who are old enough to be men, but don’t know how to do it. The problem comes from a number of sources. Not just one. But feminism is certainly a source. Their relentless attack on men, “patriarchy”, “phallocentrism” and anything they see as male-oriented has had its effect. And not an entirely bad effect. Many of the old-fashioned ideas of what it meant to be a man were destructive. And feminism has done a service in destroying them. The problem is that nothing has been constructed, or reconstructed, to replace what was destroyed. Somebody, somewhere, needs to start the process, and it needs to be men. > [@](#): > > M.G.T.O.W – Men Going Their Own Way is a statement of self-ownership, where the modern man preserves and protects his own sovereignty above all else. It is the manifestation of one word: “No”. Ejecting silly preconceptions and cultural definitions of what a “man” is. Looking to no one else for social cues. Refusing to bow, serve and kneel for the opportunity to be treated like a disposable utility. And, living according to his own best interests in a world which would rather he didn’t. That, from my point of view, is not great. It contains some stuff I don’t think should be there. But it also has some thing that are good: autonomy: standing up for yourself, even in the face of social pressure; and seeing the world for what it is and not buying into fairy tales. Anyway, it’s a starting point. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022.md?page=14)