# Men going their own way (MGTOW) **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 20, 2015, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022 "2015-06-20T19:21:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/301 "2015-06-23T07:19:22Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > I know I am opening myself up to open fire but I do understand ‘what their problem is’ or at least I think so. I was in a relationship for 7 years to an extremely strong willed woman at her insistence and then we were married for another ten years before we got divorced. We were never equal partners. She controlled everything down to the smallest details. I was domestically abused physically and even called the police over it but they obviously didn’t do anything. There is no such thing as wife on husband domestic abuse in their eyes even when you can barely breath because of ribs that she cracked by punting you while you were sleeping. She refused to ever show up before 10 pm even when we had children under 1 and it often wasn’t before 3 or 4 am. Work was always the most important thing and when she wasn’t doing it domestically, she was on another continent with hardly any explanation. Then you have amble evidence to warn anybody that marriage to your ex-wife would be a bad idea. But when men start saying the equivalent of _“my ex-wife was a terrible person so no man should ever get married to any woman”_ they’re going too far. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 9:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/302 "2015-06-23T09:37:47Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > I’m pretty sure that MGTOW aren’t nearly as bad as the Nazis, so I guess I wouldn’t shoot them in the face. But I definitely don’t want any more of them around, so maybe it’s worth figuring out what their problem is. I guess I don’t see it as such a mystery. Misogyny is as old as dirt, and until very recently on a small part of the planet, it was basically the norm. These guys think they are nostalgic for those days. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/303 "2015-06-23T09:42:49Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > Everybody slightly public gets threats. Do you think, say, Roger Ebert got told stuff like “I want to rape you in front of your family” on a daily basis? ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/304 "2015-06-23T09:55:12Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > I honestly think marriage is a very bad and risky deal for the vast majority of men today. Why is it this a man-woman thing? Marriage is confining for everyone. Marriage requires compromises for everyone. It’s not a big walk in the park for women. It’s basically exactly the same, except we are more likely to end up the sole caregiver after a divorce-- a situation that definitely doesn’t feel like Christmas morning every day. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/305 "2015-06-23T10:13:11Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > I guess I don’t see it as such a mystery. Misogyny is as old as dirt, and until very recently on a small part of the planet, it was basically the norm. These guys think they are nostalgic for those days. But it was the norm not due to some hardwired hatred of women, but because that was the basis for the economic and social order. A couple had no choice but to play their typical Barry Breadwinner and Suzy Homemaker roles because the wife sure wasn’t going to get hired anywhere (after all, she was uneducated, and furthermore any employer would gain an embarrassing reputation if they hired women for men’s jobs), and the husband sure wasn’t going to play stay-at-home-dad. Now things are somewhat better in our little spatio-temporal location, but there still seem to be some misogynists around. They obviously aren’t gaining any economic or social benefits from it, the way it would have been in the past. So there must be some other cause. Maybe the cause is real and maybe imagined, but either way it’s worth considering. Even if it is just nostalgia, that still indicates some kind of misconception on their part, or perhaps a fantasy spurred by their current failings (which might themselves be engendered by their inadequate education). It’s not like any of them were married in the 50’s or whatever; the crowd is way too young. They have some completely fabricated image in their heads of what it was like. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/306 "2015-06-23T11:38:39Z")
> [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > I have been pretty fortunate in this area but having worked with addicts, alcoholics and ex convicts the past 25 years it is pretty evident to me that men are experiencing a problem when it comes to feeling like viable men. Some over compensate, some under compensate, most just struggle through life. A quick google shows that according the NIH, about 10% of the population has chemical dependency issues, with more men than women. However, it’s my impression that alcoholics and addicts come from all strata of society. There are a multitude of risk factors for chemical dependency, and I’m not certain how easily it’s to quantify struggling feelings of viability which can be defined by MGTOW’s terms. There is no question that the enormous problem of far too many black men are incarcerated, on parole or are ex convicts. From [here](http://www.irp.wisc.edu/publications/focus/pdfs/foc252d.pdf): > [@](#): > > 3 percent of white males and 8 percent of Hispanic males, but 20 percent of all black adult males, have > served prison time at some point in their lives. MGTOW seems to be placing the blame on women in general, yet these problems defy simplistic explanations. If anything MGTOW would be distracting attention from more pressing causes of these personal tragedies. > [@](#): > > Modern society seems to be lacking in opportunities for men to demonstrate the ability to be successful. My WAG is that a far higher percent of individuals – both men and women – in advanced countries are “successful” than any other time in history, when a much higher percentage were condemned to poverty. I’m not a sociologist, so YMMV. > [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Why is this limited to men, though? People are pointing out that saying that men on the whole are doing well leaves out the men who aren’t. But it’s just as easy to point out that not every woman is doing well, either. In fact, the vast majority of people, throughout history, have probably felt unable to demonstrate success. I think the difference is that the MGTOW guys seem to think they deserve or need something more. So, OK. Go out and do something. Is there any indication that the primary concern of MGTOW guys is success or are they simply bitching about women? Are we reading into them that their complaints against women are because of a lack of success? A rather brief visit to their forums seems to indicate misogyny is MGTOW’s primary raison d’être. What provides the link to a lack of success, or is this simply speculation by people in this thread? ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/307 "2015-06-23T11:40:29Z")
I think this has always occurred in history. Thats why you had your hobos, mountain men, and other men who just took off on their own because they didnt want to be tied down. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/308 "2015-06-23T14:11:04Z")
> [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > I think what we are seeing is inevitable in today’s society. As to be expected we are seeing a giant identity crisis. Man evolved around a small village or town where he had a much better chance at distinguishing himself at something. It is part of the mating strategy of men to acquire and keep a mate. > > ``` > We simply lack the opportunities to find someway to distinguish ourselves. Many men do succeed at this and enjoy the consequences. For those of us who were not successful at accomplishing this through a profession our best bet is to find a source outside of work where we might. Activities that involve creativity and social interaction are especially effective at combating this and helping us to feel more defined and vital as a human being. > > ``` But men of today have so many more opportunuies to distinguishe themselves than men in past. For instance, penis selfies and revenge porn. ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/309 "2015-06-23T15:28:46Z")
I think this conversation could have been more useful if instead of concentrating on MGTow we focused on all the different ways men deal with the changing dynamics between males and females. The great majority have not joined any groups and would undoubtedly fall into many classifications. If all the classifications were added up they might represent a fairly large segment of males both married and single. Enough anyway to suggest we may have a problem that warrants some attention. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/310 "2015-06-23T15:36:09Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > But it was the norm not due to some hardwired hatred of women, but because that was the basis for the economic and social order. Yes, and racism is the same way. If you want the order that comes from Group A being on top, Group B below that, and Group C below that, and Group D… then certainly you will hate or resent members of Groups B, C, and D if they are above you. So, is that what’s going on with the MGTOW fellows? Because if it is, that’s really a case where they just have to lump it. No one owes them top dog status. But if it’s more “I had a role that I understood and now I feel confused in these tumultuous times,” well, that’s a much different proposition, and I’m quite sympathetic to it. But if you dress the latter up like the former, it’s hard to tell the difference. And I don’t think the rest of us owe them the effort of figuring out exactly what pig is in that poke. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/311 "2015-06-23T16:03:31Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Yes, and racism is the same way. If you want the order that comes from Group A being on top, Group B below that, and Group C below that, and Group D… then certainly you will hate or resent members of Groups B, C, and D if they are above you. > > So, is that what’s going on with the MGTOW fellows? Because if it is, that’s really a case where they just have to lump it. No one owes them top dog status. > … That’s what they seem to believe. And if you accept that white mailes are today at the bottom of the social ladder and are being actively discriminated against, then they have a point. But they don’t. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/312 "2015-06-23T16:27:56Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > What I’m saying is, if someone did what you’re doing - refused to learn anything about the topic, while taking every opportunity to derail the thread - would you assume they had an ulterior motive? When we see TEA party activists complaining about being “taxed enough already” during a period of historically low taxes we make fun of them. When they complain about government healthcare while on medicaid we make fun of them. When Christians complain about being persecuted in America we make fun of them. Not because we refuse to learn anything about the topic but because we have learned about the topic and their moronic complaints are not just simply wrong, but the complete factual opposite of reality. When you complain about how bad men have it with regards to rape accusations when the reality is that you can literally dedicate your life to raping women and the chances of you being tried and convicted are miniscule you should expect nothing but mockery. Mockery is the correct response to entitled whining of privileged classes complaining things are not as good as they used to be. ---
**Author:** ![CinnamonBabka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/bbce88/32.png) [@CinnamonBabka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CinnamonBabka)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/313 "2015-06-23T16:28:08Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Do you think, say, Roger Ebert got told stuff like “I want to rape you in front of your family” on a daily basis? No, but you’ve got to keep in mind that gamers by and large are self absorbed little shits who despise anything that gets between them and their vidyagames. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/314 "2015-06-23T17:08:09Z")
> [@Shakes](#): > > And in the process get our innocent young boys molested? No thank you. > > /Devil’s Advocate. Wow. You really hate men, don’t you? ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/315 "2015-06-23T17:11:26Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Is that supposed to prove women were in control? The reason all our teachers were women back then was because women were shut out of most other professions. Well, recruiting some men to be elementary school teachers would be a great way to get them out of their “pigeonholes”. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/316 "2015-06-23T17:15:22Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Do you think, say, Roger Ebert got told stuff like “I want to rape you in front of your family” on a daily basis? Probably not. Though I’m sure he got some doozies. Let’s face it, some men are aware that a threat of sexual violence is scarier to a lot of women than just a threat to kill us. A threat to kill me is bad, but a threat to rape me feels more personal, more contemptuous, more of an attempt to be destructive of my autonomy. So, I’m sure that some of the rape threats come from that awful motivation—an attempt to make the threat worse. So, if for some reason such people thought that a rape threat would bother Roger Ebert more than usual, that type would use a rape threat. And then there are the others who just get off on the notion that they can threaten sexual violence. Some of them would undoubtedly do it, as well. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/317 "2015-06-23T17:16:37Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > Well, recruiting some men to be elementary school teachers would be a great way to get them out of their “pigeonholes”. There is nothing preventing men from being elementary school teachers other than desire to be one. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/318 "2015-06-23T17:17:24Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > y’know, throughout grade, middle, and high school I had plenty of male teachers. maybe you should stop acting like your own personal experience is the universal truth. Well, I notice you’re referencing your own personal experience. In any event, the “you can’t reference your own personal experience”, is bullshit, since people do it all the time. People like you only call it out when suits their purposes. And you did a particularly shitty job of it since you did it **by referencing your own personal experiences.** ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/319 "2015-06-23T17:20:14Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > There is nothing preventing men from being elementary school teachers other than desire to be one. I think there are two things: 1. Men themselves, seeing teaching as unappealing for a variety of healthy and unhealthy reasons, and 2. Societally, I think we do tend to discourage men from being around children, usually out of fears of molestation. I think this is a disgusting attitude and unacceptable bigotry. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/320 "2015-06-23T17:34:27Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > Well, recruiting some men to be elementary school teachers would be a great way to get them out of their “pigeonholes”. Interesting view on what you think the problem was. Fifty years ago: Women weren’t being hired as accountants. Women weren’t being hired as architects. Women weren’t being hired as bankers. Women weren’t being hired as business executives. Women weren’t being hired as construction workers. Women weren’t being hired as dentists. Women weren’t being hired as doctors. Women weren’t being hired as electricians. Women weren’t being hired as engineers. Women weren’t being hired as firefighters. Women weren’t being hired as journalists. Women weren’t being hired as lawyers. Women weren’t being hired as pilots. Women weren’t being hired as plumbers. Women weren’t being hired as police officers. Men weren’t being hired as school teachers. Women weren’t being hired as scientists. Women weren’t being hired as soldiers. Women weren’t being hired as truck drivers. And you looked back at this situation and said the solution to the problem is we should have hired more men to be school teachers. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022.md?page=17)