# Men going their own way (MGTOW) **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 20, 2015, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022 "2015-06-20T19:21:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/341 "2015-06-23T22:19:54Z")
No DigitalC, no. It’s not “nice guy” schlubs who feel entitled to supermodels. That’s a tired old trope that wouldn’t even play on a CBS prime time sitcom. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/342 "2015-06-23T22:24:17Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > I know I am opening myself up to open fire but I do understand ‘what their problem is’ or at least I think so. I was in a relationship for 7 years to an extremely strong willed woman at her insistence and then we were married for another ten years before we got divorced. We were never equal partners. She controlled everything down to the smallest details. I was domestically abused physically and even called the police over it but they obviously didn’t do anything. There is no such thing as wife on husband domestic abuse in their eyes even when you can barely breath because of ribs that she cracked by punting you while you were sleeping. She refused to ever show up before 10 pm even when we had children under 1 and it often wasn’t before 3 or 4 am. Work was always the most important thing and when she wasn’t doing it domestically, she was on another continent with hardly any explanation. > > The only good thing we got out of the whole mess was my daughters who I love more than anything in the entire world. I have gone on dates with 30 or 40 women since I got divorced and liked most of them to some degree but I quickly realized that I don’t have much to offer them on their terms. I am not going to jeopardize my financial future over any infatuation and I am also not going to be a step-parent. My own children come first and second. The best anyone else can hope for is third place and I can’t see anyone ponying up for that race. > > I honestly think marriage is a very bad and risky deal for the vast majority of men today. There is very little upside except for kids if you want them and the downsides are both long-term and extreme. I will never do it again personally. That isn’t a bitter statement because you can only learn such things by experience. It is just the results of a cost/benefit analysis that I learned too late. > > That said, being a single white male in your 40’s is about the sweetest deal possible. I always tell people that it is like Christmas morning every single day. You can do whatever you want without anyone telling you what to do or how to do it. I don’t mean that completely. I still have a professional job and parenting to do but yo get a level of autonomy that is completely alien to most married men. The good news is you’re out of it, and you’re happy now. Out of curiosity, and if you don’t mind answering: How old are your daughters now, and how often do you get to see them? And, what do you mean by, “I quickly realized that I don’t have much to offer them on their terms.” ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/343 "2015-06-23T22:36:26Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > How is that anything but you staying in a dysfunctional relationship too long? And how EXACTLY is that on anyone but you? If societal pressure keeps you ten years in a bad relationship that seems to me more about your weak nature than society at large. > > After all, men successfully build relationships after bad experiences all the time. Men become step parents routinely. No one is saying we expect you to do so, but surely choosing not to take those risks is on you and no one else. People make mistakes. Men learn from them and move on. No individual man controls police or courts’ attitudes toward domestic violence. No individual man controls what happens in divorce courts. All they can do is see things for what they are, and make the best choices they can. Personally, I think putting his daughters first is admirable. And I can’t help but note that what you’re doing here is victim-blaming. If it was a woman who posted this, your attitude would be EXACTLY the opposite of what you just posted. Let me ask you something: do you think women who stay in abusive relationships should be shamed? Is the fact they stay in those relationships all about their “weak natures?” ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/344 "2015-06-23T22:42:11Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Why is it this a man-woman thing? Marriage is confining for everyone. Marriage requires compromises for everyone. It’s not a big walk in the park for women. It’s basically exactly the same, except we are more likely to end up the sole caregiver after a divorce-- a situation that definitely doesn’t feel like Christmas morning every day. That’s an easy problem to fix: just don’t ask for custody. That way, you won’t have to see your children, and you’ll get to pay child support, too. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/345 "2015-06-23T22:53:54Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Can I give you some advice? No. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/346 "2015-06-23T23:15:42Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Speaking of only seeing what you want to see, I think it’s interesting how readily you’re willing to throw feminism, as a whole, under the bus because of the statements of a few people on the fringes of that enormous movement, while at the same time, you’re also willing to sift through mountains and mountains of explicitly misogynistic crap on an MRA site in order to find one nugget that could maybe, if you squint right, be a reasonable argument, and then defend the group as a whole on the basis of that one post. Actually, I have a lifetime of experience with feminism. If I were to go through and pick out all of the examples of man-bashing, _ **in this thread alone** _ it’d take an hour. I realize not all feminist are the same. But I have no way of taking a poll to find out which feminists _really_ hate men. I only know from what they say. And the more I talk to, and listen to, feminists, the uglier, nastier, and meaner feminism becomes. Finally - and I say this knowing it will not make a difference - MGTOW is not an MRA, and I’m not “sifting” anything. Your preconceptions are wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/347 "2015-06-23T23:19:54Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > The good news is you’re out of it, and you’re happy now. > > Out of curiosity, and if you don’t mind answering: How old are your daughters now, and how often do you get to see them? > > And, what do you mean by, “I quickly realized that I don’t have much to offer them on their terms.” My daughters are 13 and 9 and I have them every weekend, additional days or weeks when my ex travels and I travel with them several weeks sprinkled throughout the year every year. I can’t claim that I got screwed on the custody arrangement even though it started out that way in the original divorce agreement because I have to work most of the rest of the time and my ex would love for me to have them much more any time that becomes possible. She frequently tells me some version of ‘Just take them please!’. I don’t want to badmouth my ex as bad as I think our marriage was. I still get invited to all of her family events including Christmas and her family is still awesome to me. She was probably about as bad a wife as I was a husband but she makes a very good ex-wife. What I meant when I said I don’t have much to offer the women that I have gone out with isn’t about general attraction or finances. I have never had a problem getting really good dates and some of them wanted to keep it going but I realized it might be best just to end things early because I wasn’t being fair by not showing all my cards. The problem is that I like women in their early 30’s with little baggage and they almost universally already have kids or are starting to get desperate to find someone to have them with. I have an admittedly strong bias against step-children (just me for me personally) because divorce is the major product my family produces and I had so many step-whatevers come in as ‘fully accepted family members’ only to disappear suddenly a few years later when the next divorce came that it turned me off the whole concept. I am also committed to having only my existing two children of my own so it isn’t fair to start a real relationship with someone who expects something else. I love women and actually enjoy going on most dates. I did it recreationaly for a while just to see who I could convince to do something really cool with me - a lot as it turns out but it is like catch and release fishing and becomes unsatisfying after a while. I will do it again when I feel like it but it isn’t something that I actively look for now. I just let them come to me on dating sites or at work and pick the relatively few unusually good ones to do something good with. Maybe someday, an infertile, blue-eyed brunette that is really smart but doesn’t ask too many questions, isn’t afraid to kill spiders and has a pathological aversion to nagging will come stumbling into my life but, if that doesn’t happen, the freedom and peace of being single is more than enough reward on its own. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/348 "2015-06-23T23:42:10Z")
> [@Slithy\_Tove](#): > > You are right: MGTOW is for guys who can’t get laid. Decent guys for whom “hump 'em and dump 'em” isn’t the coin of the realm, but who aren’t seen as steady boyfriend material in a world where men still have to apply and women still get to veto. MGTOW explains how the the only realistically better alternative to involuntary celibacy is voluntary celibacy, at least for the time being. This is basically the opposite of what MGTOW say about themselves, according to **LinusK** at least. > [@LinusK](#): > > From the FAQ: > > > [@](#): > > > > **Do MGTOW have sex? Or are you all virgins who can’t get any?** > > > > This is one of the dumbest repeat questions we receive. > > > > Where do you think the exploding population of single mothers comes from? After all, it’s still legal in this country for a woman to allow herself to get pregnant without a man’s consent. If she pulls that stunt, does she really expect her man to stick around? > > > > Single mothers are the number one cause of single mothers. > > > > Who do you think had sex with her? A MGHOW, that’s who. It wasn’t her boyfriend. And it sure as hell wasn’t her husband either. So if anyone is not getting any, it’s boyfriends and husbands. Hugh Grant had super-model wife Elizabeth Hurley at home, but she wasn’t getting the job done either. So he went out and got a $60 BJ elsewhere. Another husband who isn’t getting laid. And he was a famous movie actor. This guy paid his Ex-wife to go away with $3 million dollars plus property while she was having sex with his friend for free. > > > > Only an extreme idiot pretends “MGTOW don’t get laid”. > > > > Paternity fraud is also legal in all 50 states and Canadian provinces. In fact, DNA test results reveal that as many as 30% of American babies don’t have the father they think they do. And the number is much higher than that, because that only includes women who agree to a DNA test. More proof boyfriends and husbands don’t get any. > > > > Sex is available to any unmarried man anywhere for much less trouble, effort, money, investment and time than most people want you to believe. Even the married men can get it for less. As soon as you accept this reality, you are forced to stop pretending MGTOW “can’t get any”. With women everywhere publishing articles “where are all the men?”, nobody gets to pretend men aren’t in demand. Men are 49% of the western population. > > > > Implying women and sex is rare, priceless, unattainable is one of the biggest intellectually-dishonest lies running. women are now more promiscuous than ever. So if women are having more sex than ever with more partners than ever – and they aren’t having sex with their husbands and boyfriends – who are they having sex with? > > > > Even if a man has only 3 lovers in his entire life, he is getting more than his own grandfather – who had to marry her first. The value of western vagina has plummeted to $0, and sex can be ordered like pizza. It may even surprise you how often it’s there in 30 minutes or it’s free. > > > > … not that there’s anything wrong with that. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/349 "2015-06-23T23:47:04Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > This is basically the opposite of what MGTOW say about themselves, according to **LinusK** at least. I feel like what MGTOW stands for is a moving target, at least in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2015, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/350 "2015-06-23T23:57:50Z")
LinusK is not the pope of MGTOW. He’s just a guy slugging it out in this thread. And there’s about as much in common between the Pick Up Artist wing of the men’s movement and MGTOW as there is between “all sex is rape” and “do me” feminism. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/351 "2015-06-24T00:00:15Z")
> [@Slithy\_Tove](#): > > And there’s about as much in common between the Pick Up Artist wing of the men’s movement and MGTOW as there is between “all sex is rape” and “do me” feminism. What do you feel actually defines MGTOW? ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/352 "2015-06-24T00:13:10Z")
> [@Slithy\_Tove](#): > > LinusK is not the pope of MGTOW. He’s just a guy slugging it out in this thread. > > And there’s about as much in common between the Pick Up Artist wing of the men’s movement and MGTOW as there is between “all sex is rape” and “do me” feminism. **LinusK** said he was quoting from an MGTOW FAQ, not expressing his personal opinion or quoting a Pick-Up Artist site. According to his quote, MGTOW want everyone to know that they’re humping and dumping women all the time. I’d actually be happy to believe that **LinusK** was unwittingly quoting from some sort of parody site and that MGTOW really are just a bunch of decent guys who’ve accepted voluntary celibacy for the time being, but you haven’t given me any reason why I should accept your description of the group instead of his. I presume that you’re not the Pope of MGTOW either. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/353 "2015-06-24T00:16:38Z")
**jsgodess** Opting out. I’ve read MGTOW blogs that expanded beyond “why should I get married” to “why should I spend $K’s on college” and “why should I get killed in the military?” It’s about running an audit over the entire bill of goods that men have been sold, for which society pats them on the head and says “you are a _man_” while giggling “you are a chump!” You guys here are, baring a few who just post in to compliment themselves on their snarking skills, a genuine and fair-minded bunch. So it’s worth it to explain the principles. But part of the “going ones own way” is _not_ to get dragged into pointless arguments with people who are not going to give any reasonable concessions. Analogous a feminist who does social work. She sees a woman prostituting herself for drugs. The feminist focuses on the woman, telling her “you don’t have to do this.” She doesn’t waste her time on the drug dealer pimp. He’s doing just fine, why should he listen? But the message is for the person who benefits from it. Eta: Lamia, if I wanted to play “so why should I listen to you?” bullshit lawyer games, I’d go waste my time in the pit baiting Bricker. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/354 "2015-06-24T00:35:19Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > My daughters are 13 and 9 and I have them every weekend, additional days or weeks when my ex travels and I travel with them several weeks sprinkled throughout the year every year. I can’t claim that I got screwed on the custody arrangement even though it started out that way in the original divorce agreement because I have to work most of the rest of the time and my ex would love for me to have them much more any time that becomes possible. She frequently tells me some version of ‘Just take them please!’. I don’t want to badmouth my ex as bad as I think our marriage was. I still get invited to all of her family events including Christmas and her family is still awesome to me. She was probably about as bad a wife as I was a husband but she makes a very good ex-wife. > > What I meant when I said I don’t have much to offer the women that I have gone out with isn’t about general attraction or finances. I have never had a problem getting really good dates and some of them wanted to keep it going but I realized it might be best just to end things early because I wasn’t being fair by not showing all my cards. The problem is that I like women in their early 30’s with little baggage and they almost universally already have kids or are starting to get desperate to find someone to have them with. I have an admittedly strong bias against step-children (just me for me personally) because divorce is the major product my family produces and I had so many step-whatevers come in as ‘fully accepted family members’ only to disappear suddenly a few years later when the next divorce came that it turned me off the whole concept. I am also committed to having only my existing two children of my own so it isn’t fair to start a real relationship with someone who expects something else. > > I love women and actually enjoy going on most dates. I did it recreationaly for a while just to see who I could convince to do something really cool with me - a lot as it turns out but it is like catch and release fishing and becomes unsatisfying after a while. I will do it again when I feel like it but it isn’t something that I actively look for now. I just let them come to me on dating sites or at work and pick the relatively few unusually good ones to do something good with. > > Maybe someday, an infertile, blue-eyed brunette that is really smart but doesn’t ask too many questions, isn’t afraid to kill spiders and has a pathological aversion to nagging will come stumbling into my life but, if that doesn’t happen, the freedom and peace of being single is more than enough reward on its own. It doesn’t sound so bad. I have a 6 year old, whom I love more than anything in the world. If I got divorced (and not saying I’m going to) I can’t imagine getting married again, or being a step-parent. Still, I find myself lusting after some of the new condo units, that are going up all over town. Oh, to have a place of my own. ---
**Author:** ![robertliguori](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@robertliguori](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robertliguori)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/355 "2015-06-24T00:37:28Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > I feel like what MGTOW stands for is a moving target, at least in this thread. I think it’s more like three static targets; what the manifesto says, what the forums say, and what people want to believe about them so they can comfortably dismiss them. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/356 "2015-06-24T00:39:13Z")
Actually, if you are asking for a cite in good faith, here: [a voice for men](http://www.avoiceformen.com). You’ll probably find some things there you disagree with; so do I at times. We’d each find things at Jezebel to disagree with as well. But at a voice for men they mod heavily to remove “they should be barefoot and pregnant/Kinder, Küche, Kirche/slap my bitch up” hate speech. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/357 "2015-06-24T00:53:18Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > I feel like what MGTOW stands for is a moving target, at least in this thread. That’s because many people have a vested interest in portraying it for something it’s not. Having said that, if you pick through the threads, I’m sure you can find people saying all kinds of contradictory things. MGTOW itself seems to have made a deliberate decision not set out a list of principles. A charitable explanation would be that they see it as an evolving philosophy, and they want the actual members to be in charge of figuring it out for themselves. A less charitable explanation is they’re either too lazy, or are afraid of causing too much dissention. > [@](#): > > **Is there such a thing as a MGTOW 101 or an MGTOW 101 introduction?** > > It’s been suggested on many separate occasions that we have some kind of a “MGTOW 101″ as a sort of guided tour of essential materials, and perhaps there COULD be… but there really shouldn’t be. And that’s why we haven’t created one. Yet. > > MGTOW is not a “sales pitch”. It’s an individual lifestyle choice. > > There’s being taught. And then there’s learning. > And male learning follows it’s own path. It always has. > > It’s been said many times that it can take 1/2 a lifetime for a man to de-program himself from decades of social conditioning since the crib, but younger men are waking up and finding themselves self-aware earlier than ever. It’s not unusual anymore for a 21 year-young man to already find himself fed up and looking for answers with other like-minded men curiously wondering what the hell is going on the world – and for him to arrive here relieved it wasn’t all in his imaginings. > > The MGHOW materials are presented here at random deliberately in a sort of “hub”, but all of the materials are free flowing unbridled thoughts and collections of experiences from individual free-thinkers separated by different lives and geography… but they don’t consolidate because we want them to. They come together organically and provide the visitor with the ability to make up his own mind – to embrace them enthusiastically , or reject them emphatically. Some are presented as humor. Some as absolutely serious and for the untrained eye, neither is entirely clear. This is GOOD, because it forces the visitor to make up his own mind. If we are to offer any assistance, it would be just to remove the shackles and set him free to explore what he finds relevant to him – and what is not. > > We consider the current archives (as a whole) an oustanding collection of some of the best edu-taining MGTOW materials and we encourage the visitor to make up his own mind at his own pace. > > Some of it is presented as comedy, and some is serious. In fact, entirely depending on perception, it’s up to the individual visitor to determine either. In the case of comedian Chris Rock (for example), he does a very funny clip on marriage. If you listen to the words, he doesn’t actually say anything “funny”. So you wonder if he is in fact “joking”, or if he is completely serious and the audience is simply laughing. Turns out he was perfectly serious because he recently filed for divorce after 19 years. > > First lesson in comedy: We don’t laugh because it’s “funny”. We laugh because it’s TRUE. > > “All I am offering you is the truth. Nothing more.” > – The Matrix, 1999 ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/358 "2015-06-24T00:58:20Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > I don’t know that I’d call it a popular topic. I’ve seen it mentioned around here, and I’ve even brought it up myself, but it never seemed to get much traction. That has been experience too. My test for popularity is whether you see it discussed in relatively diverse fora (like the SDMB) or in opinion pieces in the pop press. I never see regular, everyday men talking about how patriarchy and sterotypical masculinity limits them. When sexism comes up, usually it is in the context of how it affects women or how “reverse sexism” hurts men. Laments about how the educational system is designed to fail male children is an example how the latter often presents. And my problem with this lament is that it rests upon stereotypes that fit an argument rather conveniently. I thought girls were social animals that just loved to talk, sing, twirl about like dancers, and express themselves with giggles and shrieks. But suddenly, to account for why they do better in school,we have to believe they are naturally quiet and calm creatures? Why? Why not consider the ways that boys are raised relative to girls and see whether that has something to do it? ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/359 "2015-06-24T01:01:43Z")
> [@Slithy\_Tove](#): > > Actually, if you are asking for a cite in good faith, here: [a voice for men](http://www.avoiceformen.com). I was asking for a cite in good faith. As I said, I would be happy to believe that **LinusK** is mistaken about what MGTOW is really all about. However, I’m not seeing that the Voice for Men site claims any affiliation with MGTOW and their “About” page acknowledges that “AVfM does not speak for the entirety of the men’s movement”. I do not doubt that there are plenty of men’s sites out there that _aren’t_ making ridiculous boasts about how their members have humped and dumped all 10 million single mothers in the US, but the material **LinusK** posted explicitly claimed to be speaking for MGTOW. Maybe they’re actually from a parody site or some weird fringe site denounced by most MGTOW, but if you want me to believe that something purporting to be the MGTOW FAQ doesn’t represent typical MGTOW then I don’t see how an apparently unrelated website is evidence of that. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2015, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/360 "2015-06-24T01:11:03Z")
Dude really, it’s not a cult with ironclad strictures. As much as I have issues with feminism (mainly that it gets to be whatever any opportunist feminist says it is but it’s always above criticism by outsiders), I’m not in with the guys who blame feminism. I tend to agree with Susan Faludi in _Stiffed_: yes, guys have been screwed, and the people who screwed them would just love it if feminism were made the scapegoat. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022.md?page=19)