# Men going their own way (MGTOW) **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 20, 2015, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022 "2015-06-20T19:21:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/21 "2015-06-21T00:25:42Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Sure…but, then, the group referred to in the OP should also be practicing understanding and not “othering” and demonizing. I certainly agree, but you can see some people in this very thread (not you) doing the same in return. We’ve got a group of marginalized people that are angry at that fact. They don’t like that others say they aren’t marginalized because they happen to be male and mostly white. But the fact is that they aren’t sharing in the benefits that other white males are getting. Their anger is to a large extent misdirected, but at least their solution to the problem doesn’t involve violence or other nastiness. I think it’s reasonable to ask if society can accommodate these people instead of just labeling them as losers. > [@Trinopus](#): > > If the solution is to emphasize boys’ education to restore parity, then that’s fine. If the solution is do condemn girls who achieve educational success, then you’ve made a lifelong enemy here. I admit that I haven’t read much of their material, but so far I haven’t seen any of that. There’s been a huge focus on giving girls equal access to education, and it’s been a massive success. But it’s exposed some problems with the way that boys are educated, and it might be wise to divert some resources in that direction. It’s not zero-sum, but just the same resources are limited, and it’s probably good to put more emphasis on the group that’s farthest behind. > [@Trinopus](#): > > Agreed. All very well and good. Just don’t phrase it in a condemnatory fashion. Sure. But one also shouldn’t ignore a group just because their shrillest people act that way. Just like we shouldn’t condemn feminism just because of a few unpleasant outliers. All this men’s rights stuff is pretty nascent and as such there’s a lot of bullshit mixed in, but it’s unfair to ignore the legitimate points on that basis. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/22 "2015-06-21T00:28:15Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > So… they’re MRAs. MRA’s on steroids. ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/23 "2015-06-21T00:44:05Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > How about distinguishing yourself by being a good human being - that would really be rare and unusual. I can’t speak for women, but as a gay man I am most strongly attracted to men who are decent and responsible. As well as for a spouse, I would think those would also be good qualities for a male parent (necessary, although not sufficient by themselves). > > There are a couple of things in the manifesto that I actually agree with, although probably not for the same reasons they were written: not following “silly preconceptions and cultural definitions” of what a man is; and “living according to his own best interests” (what those best interests are is naturally a matter of debate). Otherwise, it sounds like a bunch of white guys who bemoan the fact that they have lost some of their privileges. I thought your answer was interesting, you are a male looking for the same qualities in your mate that other males typically look for. Those are not the the qualities that females are typically attracted to even though they do value them. The marginalized group mentioned by the OP is just a small fragment of society responding to the same phenomenon that many other men are also responding to but in different ways. Married men make up a large percentage of this group. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/24 "2015-06-21T01:15:37Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > Vaya con dios, motherfuckers. Hey, hey, _hey!!!_ MGTOW are not “motherfuckers”!!! :mad: 'Cause mothers are (by definition) _gurls_, and MGTOW are certainly not going to risk getting cooties fooling around with any of _those_. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/25 "2015-06-21T01:24:00Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > I think it’s reasonable to ask if society can accommodate these people instead of just labeling them as losers. What does accommodating them entail? > [@](#): > > I admit that I haven’t read much of their material, but so far I haven’t seen any of that. There’s been a huge focus on giving girls equal access to education, and it’s been a massive success. But it’s exposed some problems with the way that boys are educated, and it might be wise to divert some resources in that direction. > > It’s not zero-sum, but just the same resources are limited, and it’s probably good to put more emphasis on the group that’s farthest behind. Are they really the group farthest behind? It seems like they’re complaining because they don’t make quite as much money as some men and they aren’t dating super hot women. Maybe a little perspective is in order? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/26 "2015-06-21T01:25:25Z")
I’m a middle-aged single white man. And I’m a sociable guy always looking for new people to hang out with. So I was considering putting in an application to join. But then I looked over the website and realized I would never be able to whine enough to fit in. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/27 "2015-06-21T01:29:40Z")
> [@](#): > > the relentless mockery of white men on the basis of their sex and skin colour As Tim Allen said in his standup act, “Good thing we’ve got all the money!” ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/28 "2015-06-21T02:00:31Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > What does accommodating them entail? A start would be to avoid some of the nasty comments that have appeared in this thread, which would be wholly inappropriate when applied to any other group. > [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Are they really the group farthest behind? Of course we can divvy up society in any number of different ways. Sex is one important axis that we divide on, and on this axis men are now behind women in educational outcomes. > [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Maybe a little perspective is in order? Again, that form of argument would be inappropriate when applied to any other group. We don’t tell feminists to suck it up because at least they aren’t in Saudi Arabia. It may be that their grievances are totally illegitimate, but that doesn’t seem to be the case. If certain trends continue, men are in for a few bad decades. These same trends aren’t limited to America. The same kind of pattern is promoting demographic collapse in Japan (“herbivores”) and terrorism in the Middle East. It’s probably worth paying attention to and looking at causes. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/29 "2015-06-21T02:01:48Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > So, maybe it should be understood instead of dismissed as a crowd of basement-dwelling losers that can’t get girlfriends? I don’t know anything about these guys beyond what I’ve read in this thread, but it sounds like they’ve dismissed _themselves_ as basement-dwelling losers that can’t get girlfriends. If they’re choosing to remove themselves from mainstream society then I think mainstream society will manage to carry on somehow. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/30 "2015-06-21T02:07:02Z")
Sounds like an Elliot Rodger wet dream. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/31 "2015-06-21T02:07:47Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > If they’re choosing to remove themselves from mainstream society then I think mainstream society will manage to carry on somehow. Having a big chunk of population splinter off isn’t really in anyone’s interests, and historically speaking usually turns out badly. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/32 "2015-06-21T02:11:59Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > A start would be to avoid some of the nasty comments that have appeared in this thread, which would be wholly inappropriate when applied to any other group. . . . Without any other context, I might agree with you. But did you click and look at the link to their poster archives? I vigorously oppose any possibility of accommodating that kind of sociopathy. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/33 "2015-06-21T02:24:15Z")
> [@Leo\_Krupe](#): > > It sounds like that stupid men’s movement of 20 years ago or so–the one where men sat in a drum circle and pretended to be at one with nature or some bullshit like that. The _Cathie_ strip dealt with it. Mr Pinckney, the boss, comes back from a drum-circle retreat: Mr P: It really put me in touch with myself, and helped me to realise how oppressed men are nowadays. For instance, I was never allowed to have a Bar Mitzvah! Cathie: Mr Pinckney, you’re Presbyterian! Mr P: Oh right. Well, that’s one I can cross off the list. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/34 "2015-06-21T02:26:36Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > But did you click and look at the link to their poster archives? Sure. They’re pretty unpleasant. But I also have no idea if they’re representative. And I oppose dismissing any viewpoint just because the most vocal ones are sociopathic. Also, even for the worst of them, this is just the end product of a long process. We don’t look at the crime rate, and say that we shouldn’t do anything, because after all, they’re _criminals_ and deserve what they got. Well, maybe they do deserve it, but at the same time we look at the reasons why someone might turn into a criminal and see if we can ameliorate them somehow. ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/35 "2015-06-21T02:29:41Z")
The same phenomena driving groups like MGTow is also behind the high crime rate in minorities, high divorce rates in the middle class, expanding drug abuse problems. It has been glaring at us for decades yet seems to be ignored. More men are having a hard time fulfilling what they perceive as a male roll. Nothing to laugh at. Things can start to breakdown when basic human instincts are somehow short circuited. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/36 "2015-06-21T02:33:39Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > A start would be to avoid some of the nasty comments that have appeared in this thread, which would be wholly inappropriate when applied to any other group. I think it’s more than appropriate to level criticism at a group that’s vile and hateful. There’s something deeply wrong with these guys if that’s how they really think. > [@](#): > > Of course we can divvy up society in any number of different ways. Sex is one important axis that we divide on, and on this axis men are now behind women in educational outcomes. > > Again, that form of argument would be inappropriate when applied to any other group. We don’t tell feminists to suck it up because at least they aren’t in Saudi Arabia. But overall as a group men are still doing pretty damned well. And no, I wouldn’t tell anyone to suck it up because it could be worse, if they have a genuine complaint. If you’re a woman complaining that hot, rich guys won’t go for you…yeah, the Saudi Arabia comment might work. Sitting around making hateful comments about women and then wondering why you’re single–yeah, I think “suck it up” is essentially the only way to respond to that. > [@](#): > > It may be that their grievances are totally illegitimate, but that doesn’t seem to be the case. If certain trends continue, men are in for a few bad decades. What is legitimate about their grievances? Beautiful women not wanting to go out with them doesn’t equal oppression. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/37 "2015-06-21T02:56:24Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > A start would be to avoid some of the nasty comments that have appeared in this thread, which would be wholly inappropriate when applied to any other group. Nonsense. I’m happy talking smack about: -Whiny misogynists -Klan members -Gossipy backstabbers -People who put spycams in bathrooms -People who talk in the theater In other words, people who do or say shitty things. Analogizing between people who do shitty things and people who have the wrong skin tone or religion or sex or sexual preference or whatever your insinuation is, is ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/38 "2015-06-21T03:02:01Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > I think it’s more than appropriate to level criticism at a group that’s vile and hateful. There’s something deeply wrong with these guys if that’s how they really think. We can either dismiss complaints as the product of a mental defect, or we can ask how things got that way. I know which one of these approaches leads to better outcomes. > [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > But overall as a group men are still doing pretty damned well. Yeah–“as a group”. Success is not equally distributed. And it’s seemingly less well distributed as time goes on. > [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > What is legitimate about their grievances? Beautiful women not wanting to go out with them doesn’t equal oppression. Browsing around wikis and other stuff, I can pick out a fair number of reasonable complaints: - Educational practices that lead to worse outcomes for men - Overblown claims of income disparity that don’t account for job differences - Traditional marriage is a greater cost for men than women - Bias in custody proceedings - Bias in the way rape is handled, from false accusations to underreporting Now, mixed in with this is a lot of bile and hatred, and indeed some element of “I deserve a beautiful girlfriend”. It’s hard to separate the two and easy to dismiss it all based on that. Unreasonable expectations from the media and the rest of society cause all kinds of problems. Depictions of photoshopped skinny girls creates anorexics. It might be that the constant portrayal of the dude-who-can’t-get-a-girlfriend as an angry loser might be creating angry losers. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/39 "2015-06-21T03:07:53Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > Running, climbing, exploring, breaking things, and wrestling has _never_ been allowed in schools, even back when girls weren’t much allowed in schools, either. School has always been about sitting your ass down or getting your ass beaten until you can’t stand up. We’ve stopped beating students who disrupt class - and you can thank feminists for that, by the way - but that doesn’t mean that children who run, climb, break things and wrestle are going to get the gold star. > > OT: As a feminist and a woman, I encourage these men to go their own way. You go, guys. Vaya con dios, motherfuckers. I agree. I’m a survivor of public school, myself. I had two friends, and we never played “kill the faggot” or whatever game the boys were playing. School is for the benefit of the teachers, not the students. After elementary school, things got way worse. The difference now is recess is all but gone, and they’re pathologizing the boys. My friend (different friend) has two boys, and they’re refusing the Ritalin. A good decision, IMO. They’re just boys, not mentally ill. On the OT: Are you a lesbian? If so, congratulations. Oh, to be 25 years younger, and gay. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/40 "2015-06-21T03:09:51Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > In other words, people who do or say shitty things. If you’re limiting your comments to just the people that uploaded those stupid, hateful posters–then sure. Rail away. But I see this as a more general trend, and one that could be very damaging in the long run. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022.md?page=3)