# Men going their own way (MGTOW) **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 20, 2015, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022 "2015-06-20T19:21:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/421 "2015-06-25T02:17:35Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > I agree with most of what you say, so I’ll limit myself to asking a question: if there’s been an increase in “like marrying like”, where do all the stories about “successful” women not being able to find a man come from? Why do you think both things can’t be happening at the same time? More marriages are occurring between socioeconomic equals than in year’s past. Also, at the same time, women also less likely to pair up with guys purely for financial stability, since their jobs pay well enough. So they stay single longer, searching for someone who is compatible with them in areas women in the past didn’t prioritize. You can see both trends simultaneously. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/422 "2015-06-25T02:28:46Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Why do you think both things can’t be happening at the same time? More marriages are occurring between socioeconomic equals than in year’s past. Also, at the same time, women also less likely to pair up with guys purely for financial stability, since their jobs pay well enough. So they stay single longer, searching for someone who is compatible with them in areas women in the past didn’t prioritize. > > You can see both trends simultaneously. I don’t think more successful women are unmarried who are seeking marriage. (ETA: I think I may have misunderstood part of your point. I thought you were saying the “same time” was greater parity AND women staying single while looking.) [This](https://wspucla.wordpress.com/2011/11/02/wednesday-word-marriage-socioeconomic-inequality/) isn’t a citation, but it accords with cites I’ve seen: > [@](#): > > The irony here is that those who are best positioned economically to live without a partner or to have a child without being married are the least likely to choose to do so. Among men, the more a man earns, the more likely he is to be married. Among women, what used to be known as the marriage penalty — a reference to the fact that greater education was associated with lower marriage rates — has steadily eroded. Now, college-educated women are more likely than their less educated peers to marry and stay married. Economically secure, college-educated men and women may not need marriage, but most of them want it. > > The economic consequences of this socioeconomic divide in marriage are accentuated by two other developments. One is that marriages are increasingly between socioeconomic equals, who each contribute economically to the partnership. It used to be that doctors married nurses. Now, thanks to women’s advancement, they marry other doctors, and often both continue to work. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/423 "2015-06-25T02:41:10Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > I don’t think more successful women are unmarried who are seeking marriage. (ETA: I think I may have misunderstood part of your point. I thought you were saying the “same time” was greater parity AND women staying single while looking.) [This](https://wspucla.wordpress.com/2011/11/02/wednesday-word-marriage-socioeconomic-inequality/) isn’t a citation, but it accords with cites I’ve seen: I’m saying the number of high-earning women is growing, and high-earning women tend to delay marriage longer than other women. You’re right that their marriage rates are pretty high relative to other women. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/424 "2015-06-25T03:08:11Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > I’m saying the number of high-earning women is growing, and high-earning women tend to delay marriage longer than other women. You’re right that their marriage rates are pretty high relative to other women. Yeah, you’re right. The notion that successful women can’t find mates appears to be outdated. Later marriage and fewer divorces are combining to make “successful” women “successful” at marriage as well. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/425 "2015-06-25T03:51:45Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Or maybe enough time hasn’t passed for people to be sure there is a problem. Or maybe enough time hasn’t passed for anyone to figure out any answers. > > Black kids often underperform white kids. Lots of us think that’s a problem and it hasn’t been fixed. Does that mean lots of us don’t think it’s a problem? No. But it does mean that something is missing: knowledge of the problem, knowledge of the cause, knowledge of the solution, or the will to fix it. Black students underperforming white students is absolutely a problem. It’s one we’ve tried to address, and we should keep trying until it’s fixed. I don’t know anyone who denies it’s a problem (although there’s probably a fringe somewhere that would say so); the debate is about how to solve it. > [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > It could be because the jury is still out as to whether what we’re seeing in boys is actually new. If boys are doing about the same as they always done–and we’re only now reconizing their performance as a problem because girls are beating them–it’s going to be harder to galvanize the masses to treat this as a serious issue. If boys are doing the same as they’ve always done, that’s not good enough. Teaching techniques and tools have improved, there’s access to more information than ever before, and the skills needed to thrive in the world will be greater than ever before. It’s kind of like inflation in the economy; if I made the same salary as my father did 30 years ago, I’d be a pauper. Standing still means falling behind. > [@](#): > > It’s all too tempting to see this as zero sum, as if helping girls succeed has to come at the expense of boys. I think this mindset is counterproductive because it’s antagonistic and causes us always conclude bias is afoot rather than other hypothesies… It depends on what metric you use to gauge success. If one student gets 100% on a test, it doesn’t prevent another student from also getting 100%. But there aren’t an unlimited number of college placements available. Every spot someone gets is one less for everyone else to compete for. When the music stops, someone is going to be left without a chair. I don’t have a perfect answer. There probably isn’t one, even if you had a blank check and the wisdom of Solomon. I just think it would go a long way if we could collectively admit that there might be a problem. Education in the last couple decades seems to be leaving a group behind; that seems like something we should be concerned about. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/426 "2015-06-25T06:50:21Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > I agree with most of what you say, so I’ll limit myself to asking a question: if there’s been an increase in “like marrying like”, where do all the stories about “successful” women not being able to find a man come from? Anecdotes, I’d guess. It is easy to write a story featuring a bunch of women who bemoan the lack of available men. However I think I’ve seen statistics which show that high income women and men have higher marriage rates than lower income women and men. I’d be interested in comparing marriage rates among highly paid and/or educated women today with 30 years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 9:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/427 "2015-06-25T09:24:35Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Yeah, you’re right. The notion that successful women can’t find mates appears to be outdated. Later marriage and fewer divorces are combining to make “successful” women “successful” at marriage as well. It’s also worth noting that it’s becoming less of a stigma for successful women to date/marry men under their income level. I have a female friend that makes 250k a year (that’s my best guess anyway) and her husband was a Handyman by trade that probably didn’t make more than 50-60k in a given year. After they got married, he pretty much gave up the handyman business and now he just dedicates his time to maintaining their properties. Oh, and he’s in charge of all the boating stuff. They own a big boat. Whenever she’s in the mood for a boat ride on the lake, it’s up to him to hook it up and drive it on out there. It’s kind of a sweet deal actually. He get’s to enjoy all these toys that he would have never been able to afford himself (Seriously, the dude has got a [Bobcat.](http://www.wardspowertools.com/images/BOBCAT.jpg)) And she gets to have a man that handles all the “manly” stuff that she can’t do herself like hook up a boat and drive it out to the lake. I know that all may sound superficial but they really do love each other. At least, that’s the impression I get anyway. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 10:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/428 "2015-06-25T10:04:55Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Yeah, you’re right. The notion that successful women can’t find mates appears to be outdated. Later marriage and fewer divorces are combining to make “successful” women “successful” at marriage as well. I think this has always been a “cautionary tale pushed” by deeply concerned busybodies with nothing better to do than make sure women feel scared about every choice we make. These are the same people telling us we will be nothing but broken husks of regret if we wait to have children, and we will be financially ruined and probably divorced if we do have them. I think that women who have placed all their bets on the old system have a lot to fear with the new system, where both women and men have a lot more choices. And that gets manifested as a lot of ways, including trying to put an extra heaping spoonful of fear and shame on women who do their own thing. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/429 "2015-06-25T10:28:48Z")
I don’t know what the US is like but another factor in the UK has been the number of ‘professional’ couples who originally met at University. If the woman then goes on to really work her career then that seems to immediately take away most of the gender role stuff - it’s interesting that there may be an element of family and friends already knowing the dynamic. The young secretary thing still can prevail for 2nd marriages cos, well, that’s another game altogether. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/430 "2015-06-25T11:55:06Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > I think this has always been a “cautionary tale pushed” by deeply concerned busybodies with nothing better to do than make sure women feel scared about every choice we make. These are the same people telling us we will be nothing but broken husks of regret if we wait to have children, and we will be financially ruined and probably divorced if we do have them. The men we’re talking about in this thread don’t seem to care or appreciate how often this fear-mongering is directed at women, either. And it comes from men and women. Unhelpful reminders about how our eggs shrivel up the day after we turn 35, so don’t wait forever, ladies!. Tsk tsk tsking when women choose to study rather than pursue their MRS degree, as if college isn’t really about learning and making yourself competitive in the workplace. It’s about finding Mr. Right! Threads like this [one](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=750259) which espouse the idea that it’s a father’s duty to encourage his daughters to marry early in life, or else she’ll hit 30 and find herself a spinster. And how many times have women been warned about trying to “have it all”? As if “having it all” isn’t something that men have taken for granted for most of modern history? The implication is that women should fear becoming _too_ successful, because success is antithetical to a balanced homelife. Men can’t be expected to be equal co-parents, and of course, forget about expecting them to cook, clean, and all those other girlie things. So a woman who wants to do well career-wise and have a family needs to prepared to “do it all”. This is rubbish. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/431 "2015-06-25T17:24:36Z")
> [@Shakes](#): > > It’s also worth noting that it’s becoming less of a stigma for successful women to date/marry men under their income level. > > I have a female friend that makes 250k a year (that’s my best guess anyway) and her husband was a Handyman by trade that probably didn’t make more than 50-60k in a given year. > > After they got married, he pretty much gave up the handyman business and now he just dedicates his time to maintaining their properties. Oh, and he’s in charge of all the boating stuff. They own a big boat. Whenever she’s in the mood for a boat ride on the lake, it’s up to him to hook it up and drive it on out there. > > It’s kind of a sweet deal actually. He get’s to enjoy all these toys that he would have never been able to afford himself (Seriously, the dude has got a [Bobcat.](http://www.wardspowertools.com/images/BOBCAT.jpg)) And she gets to have a man that handles all the “manly” stuff that she can’t do herself like hook up a boat and drive it out to the lake. > > I know that all may sound superficial but they really do love each other. At least, that’s the impression I get anyway. Yeah, I don’t think many men would have a problem dating or marrying a woman who made more than he did; so long as she didn’t treat him like shit for it. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/432 "2015-06-25T19:41:26Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > The men we’re talking about in this thread don’t seem to care or appreciate how often this fear-mongering is directed at women, either. And it comes from men and women. Unhelpful reminders about how our eggs shrivel up the day after we turn 35, so don’t wait forever, ladies!. Tsk tsk tsking when women choose to study rather than pursue their MRS degree, as if college isn’t really about learning and making yourself competitive in the workplace. It’s about finding Mr. Right! Threads like this [one](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=750259) which espouse the idea that it’s a father’s duty to encourage his daughters to marry early in life, or else she’ll hit 30 and find herself a spinster. > > And how many times have women been warned about trying to “have it all”? As if “having it all” isn’t something that men have taken for granted for most of modern history? The implication is that women should fear becoming _too_ successful, because success is antithetical to a balanced homelife. Men can’t be expected to be equal co-parents, and of course, forget about expecting them to cook, clean, and all those other girlie things. So a woman who wants to do well career-wise and have a family needs to prepared to “do it all”. This is rubbish. Mmm, actually it is harder to have a child after 35… My wife and I waited to have a child. She was about 34 when we started “trying”. It took over two years, and we’d given up (in terms of doing all the things you’re supposed to do when you’re “trying” to have a kid) when it finally happened. She was considered a “high-risk” pregnancy, because she was over 35. You can blame patriarchy if you want, but really it’s just biology. Also, nobody has ever been able to “have it all”. You can be at work, or you can be with your child. But (unless you’re very fortunate) you can’t do both. > [@](#): > > Men can’t be expected to be equal co-parents, and of course, forget about expecting them to cook, clean, and all those other girlie things This is just sexist stereotyping. I’ve always done more cleaning than my wife (because she basically doesn’t care what the house looks like). When she took her first business trip - when our daughter was 3 weeks old - I stayed home and took care of her. And did it every time she took a business trip - which is 4 - 5 times a year. There’s nothing “girlie” about being a good father, or cleaning up, for that matter. I know I’m only one data point, but all the men I know who _want_ to be fathers, want to be good fathers. And cleaning up - so far as I can see - is more about who cares more about the mess, than about gender. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/433 "2015-06-25T20:45:25Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > Yeah, I don’t think many men would have a problem dating or marrying a woman who made more than he did; so long as she didn’t treat him like shit for it. Maybe not today, but 40 or 50 years ago (and possibly more recently) it would be a big problem for lots of men whose self-worth was tied to being the “provider.” ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2015, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/434 "2015-06-25T21:24:56Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > This is just sexist stereotyping. That’s exactly what she is saying. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/435 "2015-06-26T01:12:49Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > That’s exactly what she is saying. When she said > [@](#): > > Men can’t be expected to be equal co-parents, and of course, forget about expecting them to cook, clean, and all those other girlie things I thought she meant “men can’t be expect to be equal co-parents, and of course, forget about expecting them to cook, clean, and all those other girlie things.” I’m saying: “Men CAN be expected to be equal co-parents, and to cook and clean.” We SHOULD be expected to do it. And from my - admittedly limited perspective - we are doing it. And - I can’t help adding - it would helpful if we could expect to CONTINUE to be equal co-parents, even after a divorce. Sorry for the all-caps. FTR: I’m not mad at you. (I hope that doesn’t need to be said, but just in case.) ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/436 "2015-06-26T01:17:13Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > When she said > > I thought she meant “men can’t be expect to be equal co-parents, and of course, forget about expecting them to cook, clean, and all those other girlie things.” Try this. Read what she said out loud, and use your most sarcastic voice. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/437 "2015-06-26T02:16:38Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Try this. Read what she said out loud, and use your most sarcastic voice. Well, sarcasm means you mean the opposite of what you’re saying. So if she meant the opposite of what she said, she meant… what I said. Which means I agree with her. FWIW, sarcasm often translates poorly in the written form. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/438 "2015-06-26T14:12:58Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > Well, sarcasm means you mean the opposite of what you’re saying. > > So if she meant the opposite of what she said, she meant… what I said. > > Which means I agree with her. Yes, that is what **jsgoddess** is saying. The idea is that the same sexist garbage that tries to steer women away from high-status careers also promulgates the assumption that men are poorly suited for parenting and domestic work. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/439 "2015-06-26T15:01:21Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > We SHOULD be expected to do it. And from my - admittedly limited perspective - **we are doing it**. Increasing numbers of men are doing it, but it’s still not an expectation as it with women. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/440 "2015-06-26T15:05:36Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > FWIW, sarcasm often translates poorly in the written form. That can be true. But a clue when it’s being used is if an avowed feminist uses the term “girlie.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022.md?page=23)