# Men going their own way (MGTOW) **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 20, 2015, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022 "2015-06-20T19:21:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/41 "2015-06-21T03:21:46Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > Having a big chunk of population splinter off isn’t really in anyone’s interests, and historically speaking usually turns out badly. Then I’ll be sure to worry when a big chunk of the population joins the “MGTOW” movement, something I expect to happen right around never. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/42 "2015-06-21T03:32:32Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > Browsing around wikis and other stuff, I can pick out a fair number of reasonable complaints: > > - Educational practices that lead to worse outcomes for men > - Overblown claims of income disparity that don’t account for job differences > - Traditional marriage is a greater cost for men than women > - Bias in custody proceedings > - Bias in the way rape is handled, from false accusations to underreporting Between this and the “Men have microaggressions–no really. Sometimes people assume I can’t pack my own lunch when my wife goes out of town!” type posts in the microaggressions thread, it’s getting harder and harder to read some of these threads. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/43 "2015-06-21T03:42:50Z")
I you are not wealthy you had best be charming. If your are not handsome you had best be handy. If you are not wealthy, charming, handsome or handy then you are pretty much fucked with respect to getting play. Wealthy and handsome are often beyond our grasp but charming and handy are within your grasp with some effort. If you are not willing to make the effort to be pleasant relationship-wise or useful skills-wise I’m not sure you should be reproducing. ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/44 "2015-06-21T03:52:31Z")
> [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > I thought your answer was interesting, you are a male looking for the same qualities in your mate that other males typically look for. \*\*Those are not the the qualities that females are typically attracted to \*\*even though they do value them. > > The marginalized group mentioned by the OP is just a small fragment of society responding to the same phenomenon that many other men are also responding to but in different ways. Married men make up a large percentage of this group. (Bolding added) What is your evidence for this? What qualities \*are \*women typically attracted to? > [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > The same phenomena driving groups like MGTow is also behind the high crime rate in minorities, high divorce rates in the middle class, expanding drug abuse problems. It has been glaring at us for decades yet seems to be ignored. **More men are having a hard time fulfilling what they perceive as a male roll**. Nothing to laugh at. Things can start to breakdown when **basic human instincts** are somehow short circuited. (Bolding added) In what sense are men’s perceptions of male roles a basic human instinct? I would think that would be more of a cultural thing. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/45 "2015-06-21T03:53:57Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > Then I’ll be sure to worry when a big chunk of the population joins the “MGTOW” movement, something I expect to happen right around never. If you want to limit your thinking to one tiny corner of a trend, so be it. I think this is likely the tip of an iceberg. Marriage rates have been going down for decades. There many contributing factors, including increased women’s rights, but surely one such factor is the decreasing benefits of marriage no longer exceed the increasing costs. Maybe this is not a bad thing as such, but there are consequences. A group of men that feel alienated from mainstream society is one of them. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/46 "2015-06-21T03:54:48Z")
So, if I date beautiful women and make good money, does that put me in a special class? Because… yipee! I can’t hardly believe my own dating history, and I am entering into the propertied class and everything. I suspect my gf has a net worth greater than mine, though I don’t know for sure, we don’t really bother with such disclosures, we simply enjoy each others’ company. It’s great! Women can be bad, but lots of them are good. Some are especially good. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/47 "2015-06-21T03:59:12Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Between this and the "Men have microaggressions–no really. “These things aren’t legitimate because someone else has it worse.” Education is really the big one here, because it has so many long-ranging consequences that aren’t apparent until decades on. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/48 "2015-06-21T03:59:59Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > Browsing around wikis and other stuff, I can pick out a fair number of reasonable complaints: > > - Educational practices that lead to worse outcomes for men > - Overblown claims of income disparity that don’t account for job differences > - Traditional marriage is a greater cost for men than women > - Bias in custody proceedings > - Bias in the way rape is handled, from false accusations to underreporting I might give you one of those ( custody proceedings ), though considering how many women are getting screwed by non-compliant dads out there my sympathy only goes so far. The rest of them I consider either highly debatable and/or “so what” issues. Traditional marriage has a greater cost to men? Even if true - so what? If you think marriage sucks, don’t get married. Problem solved. Women historically, and until very recently, have been greatly constrained by earning potential to the point where they had to view marriage as a semi-necessity to survive. Rarely has that ever been an issue with men. > [@](#): > > Now, mixed in with this is a lot of bile and hatred, and indeed some element of “I deserve a beautiful girlfriend”. It’s hard to separate the two and easy to dismiss it all based on that. Well, yes - that’s the thing. One can be part of group that, for example, fights for greater gender equality in child custody hearings AND do that without being whiny, misogynist douches. Once you add misogynist douchebaggery into the mix, you can forget about getting a thoughtful approach to societal ills. Just like I’m not inclined to listen to the plights of the white working poor from the likes of the KKK. "\*You say you got a real solution Well, you know We’d all love to see the plan You ask me for a contribution Well, you know We’re all doing what we can But if you want money for people with minds that hate All I can tell you is brother you have to wait\*" ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/49 "2015-06-21T04:05:57Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > If you want to limit your thinking to one tiny corner of a trend, so be it. I think this is likely the tip of an iceberg. > > Marriage rates have been going down for decades. There many contributing factors, including increased women’s rights, but surely one such factor is the decreasing benefits of marriage no longer exceed the increasing costs. > > Maybe this is not a bad thing as such, but there are consequences. A group of men that feel alienated from mainstream society is one of them. I am really pleased to see you take this position. It is having a profound and massive effect on our culture, the world culture possibly and for some reason is scarcely even recognized as a problem. I suspect because the powers to be are not really feeling the effects of it. People in positions of power, even at lower levels tend to loose sight of the fact that men generally do not do well in submissive, nondescript rolls for extended periods of time. I am convinced that it can lower our testosterone levels, or in many cases lead to rebellious defensive behaviors. ---
**Author:** ![Tzigone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Tzigone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tzigone)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/50 "2015-06-21T04:08:41Z")
Does anyone have stats on how often fathers get custody when they seek custody? I’ve heard that the numbers are increasing, but do not know if this is accurate. Obviously, there are still gender-biased culture viewpoints that default to “moms should have custody” at least of younger children that might lead to fathers not seeking full or primary custody, but in cases where they seek custody, how often do they get it? I’d love numbers since, say, 1997, to get all custody percentages involving children that might still be children today. United States is my country. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/51 "2015-06-21T04:11:35Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > If you want to limit your thinking to one tiny corner of a trend, so be it. I think this is likely the tip of an iceberg. Oh, I get it. You’re one of them. Well, I’m sure whatever charismatic whackjob you’ve been listening to was very persuasive with regard to how big this thing was going to get, but I think the rest of us will still manage to get by without you. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/52 "2015-06-21T04:17:23Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > I might give you one of those ( custody proceedings ), though considering how many women are getting screwed by non-compliant dads out there my sympathy only goes so far. Fine, but remember that you’re talking about two distinct sets of people. Deadbeat dads are not the same group as the good ones that got screwed out of custody due to bias or other circumstances beyond their control. > [@Tamerlane](#): > > Even if true - so what? If you think marriage sucks, don’t get married. Problem solved. That’s what they’re doing, except making a big show about it. > [@Tamerlane](#): > > Women historically, and until very recently, have been greatly constrained by earning potential to the point where they had to view marriage as a semi-necessity to survive. Rarely has that ever been an issue with men. Yeah, and that really sucked for women. It had the sole benefit that it was a reasonably stable system. Men and women had distinct roles to fill. A lot of progress has been made in preparing women for the breakdown of that system. Better education and reproductive rights are two biggies. It’s not as good as it could be, and there are still battles to be fought, but they’ve come a long way. Less progress has been made by men. Hopefully we can make some changes there as well. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/53 "2015-06-21T04:27:23Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > Oh, I get it. You’re one of them. Well, I’m sure whatever charismatic whackjob you’ve been listening to was very persuasive with regard to how big this thing was going to get, but I think the rest of us will still manage to get by without you. And we see the final step in “othering.” If you think whackjobs might have a tiny point, then you must be one of those whackjobs yourself. No need for an actual argument! That said, I can imagine an alternate universe me as one of them. One where I wasn’t lucky enough to get a decent education, and where I hadn’t hit the job market at an opportune time. In that universe, I’m stuck in a dead-end job and have few prospects for the future. I’d hope that I’d manage not to lash out at the wrong people, but desperate people aren’t known for acting rationally. So I really couldn’t say. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/54 "2015-06-21T04:45:39Z")
> [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > People in positions of power, even at lower levels tend to loose sight of the fact that men generally do not do well in submissive, nondescript rolls for extended periods of time. I think you were right when you said these energies can be redirected into creative endeavors. Not everyone can be a typical alpha male, but everyone can find a creative outlet that they can be good at. Unfortunately, I don’t think our school systems are very good at promoting this kind of independence. It would help both sexes, but I suspect it would help boys more. There’s been some research into the subject. I found [this article](http://fortune.com/2013/03/27/boys-vs-girls-whats-behind-the-college-grad-gender-gap/), which tries to explain the college gender gap. Quoting: _our research shows that boys’ underperformance in school has more to do with society’s norms about masculinity … Boys involved in extracurricular cultural activities such as music, art, drama, and foreign languages report higher levels of school engagement and get better grades than other boys. But these activities are often denigrated as un-masculine._ And: _We need schools that set high expectations [and] treat each student as an individual, as opposed to a gender stereotype._ The way I read it, we’re eliminating big swaths of creative outlets due to stereotypes over them being un-masculine. There don’t seem to be replacements available, and so boys end up less engaged than girls. High school certainly had nothing to engage me; fortunately I found things to occupy me outside of school that led into my current career. Not everyone has that option. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/55 "2015-06-21T04:48:00Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > On the OT: Are you a lesbian? > If so, congratulations. > Oh, to be 25 years younger, and gay. Are you asking me? No, I’m not lesbian. That’s why I’m happy that these self-absorbed, misogynistic, entitled whiners are going their own way. I wish them godspeed and hope their road takes far, far, _far_ away. Of course, we all know, they’re not actually _going_ anywhere. They’re just going to sit on the internet and whine about how unfair it is that men are so abused and disadvantaged, as evidenced by the fact that hot women aren’t lining up outside their door. But it’s a start! Go, angry men, Go! Go your own way! Don’t let feminists hold you back! There’s totally a hot submissive woman out there, just waiting for you to be an asshole to her! I bet she’s rich. I bet she’s super rich and hot, too. Keep looking! Look Harder! And Farther! Don’t stop - just Go!!! Go your own way!!! ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/56 "2015-06-21T04:50:00Z")
A few of those posters are goddamn funny. I will not apologize for having a sense of humor. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/57 "2015-06-21T04:54:25Z")
I wouldn’t marry one of the horrible manipulative women described on the MGTOW website either! I’d rather die single. Thankfully not all women are manipulative monsters looking to rob men via marriage, I know since I married one. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/58 "2015-06-21T05:02:39Z")
Exactly, grude! Why on earth do those guys even want a woman, if that’s what they think we are? That’s really my answer to LinusK too: my dating options - hell, my life options - are not limited to men who think respecting women is “bending the knee” to them. Fortunately, most men are not like that. But even if the numbers were not in my favor, it wouldn’t change my choices. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/59 "2015-06-21T05:07:11Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > That’s what they’re doing, except making a big show about it. From reading around the site, I don’t think they see themselves that way. What they’re saying is that marriage is a bad deal for men. And they’re trying to convince other men to take the "red pill’ rather than the blue one. (A reference to that movie, whatever it was called.) In other words, to see things as they really are, rather than what they’ve been taught to believe. I’ve been told “a woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle” since as long as I can remember. It’s surprising people think saying the reverse (obverse?) means you’re a troglodyte living in a basement. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/60 "2015-06-21T05:12:25Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > Exactly, grude! Why on earth do those guys even want a woman, if that’s what they think we are? Because mainstream media has for their entire existence blasted them with the idea that marriage+kids is the end point for all well-adjusted men? It’s one of many impossible standards set by the media. There are worse ones out there, but this one isn’t great. It’s probably equal with the “Prince Charming” equivalent for women. Yeah, they should get over themselves. If marriage doesn’t work for them, then they can just not participate and be happy doing some other thing. But we could also look at toning down the message a little. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022.md?page=4)