# Men going their own way (MGTOW) **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 20, 2015, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022 "2015-06-20T19:21:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/81 "2015-06-21T11:20:46Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > These are, of course, the feminists. Feminists and men are natural allies in breaking down strict gender roles and encouraging people to find the kinds of lives the want and the kinds of relationships they want, while encouraging everyone to take responsibility for their financial security and their children. You’re right of course, but just the same, feminists have their own extremists. From what I’ve seen, there is a contingent that blames all of society’s ills on “the patriarchy”, no matter who is harmed. No one should listen to extremists, but they unfortunately make a lot of noise and are hard to ignore. So a lot of people associate feminists with man-haters when really there are just a tiny number like that and the rest are more like what you describe. It all kinda sucks and I wish people could look past the extremists (on all sides) and maybe try to figure out which grievances are legitimate. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/82 "2015-06-21T11:27:27Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > These are the noisy tip. The iceberg is a large mass of disenfranchised men. They aren’t part of any club. They just got a crappy education and a crappy job, and maybe are taking drugs for ADHD or depression or something. They’ve gotten a poor life outcome and aren’t really sure why. Some of them turn to blaming women for all of their ills; others (probably the majority) are more reasonable, but whether they find a scapegoat or not makes no difference in the end. > > I’m speculating a little … You think? LOL. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/83 "2015-06-21T11:34:56Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > To me, it looks like you strayed from that line in post 45 Sorry, I just realized that you answered on behalf of **Lamia**. Apologies for implying otherwise. Still, the rest of the post stands. ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_Dunlop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/848f3c/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_Dunlop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_Dunlop)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/84 "2015-06-21T13:47:34Z")
> [@astro](#): > > I you are not wealthy you had best be charming. If your are not handsome you had best be handy. If you are not wealthy, charming, handsome or handy then you are pretty much fucked with respect to getting play. Wealthy and handsome are often beyond our grasp but charming and handy are within your grasp with some effort. This could only be true if there were far more men looking for women than vice versa. Or, given the approximate equality, I guess the wealthy handsome charming men could all be fucking far far more of their fail share, crowding out the awful men. But I’ll tell you something about wealthy handsome charming men - we’re very selective. So the average woman might be happy to marry a wealthy charming handsome man, but he probably doesn’t feel the same way about her. So she finds a guy who’s not quite wealthy or handsome or charming but hopefully they’re happy anyway. So happiness is within the grasp of even regular men. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/85 "2015-06-21T13:49:06Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > So, maybe it should be understood instead of dismissed as a crowd of basement-dwelling losers that can’t get girlfriends? Why should I go out of my way to “understand” a few basement-dwelling losers that can’t get girlfriends? ---
**Author:** ![Chauve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5daacb/32.png) [@Chauve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chauve)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/86 "2015-06-21T13:58:51Z")
Just a general comment or response to the OP. In all fairness, there _is_ a bit of a double standard here. That is, women and men have different levels of resources and support. For example: Woman sometimes find themselves at an impasse in life: Woman gets courted and treated like a princess. Guy tells her he’ll take care of her for life. Ten years later, she has a passle of little kids, and hubby is never home: He’s out fooling around with other women. Woman has no job skills, and she fears that she’s never going to get enough from hubby in a divorce settlement to pay for the kids’ upbringing and help her get set up to support herself as well. Answer for such a woman: Feminism and its related organizations and resources. Feminism tells her to have confidence in herself, directs her toward resources for getting an equitable settlement in court, etc. Meantime, men can also sometimes find themselves at an impasse in life: Man courts a woman and treats her like a princess. He says he’ll take care of her for life. Ten years later, and she has turned into an unbearable harpy. If he tries to stand up for himself or argue with her, she cries, “Spouse abuse!” If he wants to go to a counselor or talks about a trial separation, she promises that she’ll rape him in court. Meantime, at work, he knows he can be fired, expelled or arrested based more or less on the word of any woman. He knows he is basically guilty until proven innocent in most situations. Answer for such a man: None. Any organization that might pop up to help him boost his confidence or give him resources would automatically be branded misogynist and neanderthal. The assumption is that guys are supposed to figure this out for themselves. Or they’re supposed to be more like women. Or something. Summary: I think the real answer is that both women and men shouldn’t let themselves get in these fixes in the first place. That is, men and women should have enough self-confidence and presence of mind that they should be able to handle life without needing organizations and laws to help them: “Just stand up for yourself!” But experience proves that both sexes can get themselves in jams. Not _all_ men or women get themselves in such gams. But _some_ men or women do. Trouble is that it seems men aren’t allowed to have the same fall-back resources as women. In fact, feminists even argue that feminists are working for men as well. So men shouldn’t need male-oriented organizations; they should just become good feminists. Right… Anyway, I’m not a member of an MGTOW or MRA group. I haven’t even checked out their websites beyond what was linked in the OP. (And I did laugh at the posters.) Still I register the lopsidedness of things sometimes. That is, men aren’t supposed to have or need their own public organizations: The argument is that traditionally men already have things like golf clubs and “old boy networks” that serve as pre-existing support networks for them. Trouble is, not all guys have access to those old-school resources. And without access to those things, there aren’t really any centralized networks or hubs to give guys guidance that some may need. So as a result, you get guys ranting on the Internet about mistreatment by women; a lot of it is borderline misogynist. So maybe some more "official\* men’s group with a more positive slant might help out. Again, not _all_ men would need this help. But _some_ men might. (Just brainstorming here.) ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/87 "2015-06-21T14:17:08Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Why should I go out of my way to “understand” a few basement-dwelling losers that can’t get girlfriends? You don’t want to go out of your way to “understand” them, yet know enough of them to know they’re all basement-dwelling losers that can’t get girlfriends. Check. Anyway, it’s merely classic shaming technique. It’s like saying all feminists are fat, hairy and ugly. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/88 "2015-06-21T14:18:21Z")
> [@Chauve](#): > > (Just brainstorming here.) Good post there Chauve. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/89 "2015-06-21T14:26:02Z")
When did this place get so damned bitter? And for a place that prides itself on fighting ignorance, really, do so many of you actually believe that any woman can get any man thrown into jail or fired for rape or sexual harassment? Is this real life? ---
**Author:** ![Chauve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5daacb/32.png) [@Chauve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chauve)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/90 "2015-06-21T14:30:54Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > When did this place get so damned bitter? And for a place that prides itself on fighting ignorance, really, do so many of you actually believe that any woman can get any man thrown into jail or fired for rape or sexual harassment? Is this real life? I’m just saying: It’s a perception that men can fall into when they find themselves at an impasse in life. Just as women can start getting paranoid about seeing all men as potential rapists and getting paranoid anytime a man hits on them. Support networks can help both sexes parse these issues more realistically and point them toward resources if they really feel they’re being victimized in such a manner. Women have those networks; men don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Chauve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5daacb/32.png) [@Chauve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chauve)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/91 "2015-06-21T14:32:44Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Good post there Chauve. Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/92 "2015-06-21T14:32:50Z")
I have to wonder how much of [this](http://www.cracked.com/article_19785_5-ways-modern-men-are-trained-to-hate-women.html) is aligned with reality. especially #5; a lot of the crap I see on reddit etc. sounds like a bunch of bitter dudebros who can’t understand why they can’t get a hot girlfriend with no effort on their part. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/93 "2015-06-21T14:35:56Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > Then you’ve misread what I’ve said, and I take offense to you lumping me in with them. You’ve lumped yourself in with them. If that was not your intent, perhaps you should have thought a little harder before writing 20-odd posts about how much you agree with them. ---
**Author:** ![Tzigone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Tzigone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tzigone)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/94 "2015-06-21T14:39:49Z")
> [@](#): > > Woman gets courted and treated like a princess. Guy tells her he’ll take care of her for life. Ten years later, she has a passle of little kids, and hubby is never home: He’s out fooling around with other women. Woman has no job skills, and she fears that she’s never going to get enough from hubby in a divorce settlement to pay for the kids’ upbringing and help her get set up to support herself as well. > > Answer for such a woman: Feminism and its related organizations and resources. Feminism tells her to have confidence in herself, directs her toward resources for getting an equitable settlement in court, etc. > > Meantime, men can also sometimes find themselves at an impasse in life: > > Man courts a woman and treats her like a princess. He says he’ll take care of her for life. Ten years later, and she has turned into an unbearable harpy. If he tries to stand up for himself or argue with her, she cries, “Spouse abuse!” If he wants to go to a counselor or talks about a trial separation, she promises that she’ll rape him in court. Meantime, at work, he knows he can be fired, expelled or arrested based more or less on the word of any woman. He knows he is basically guilty until proven innocent in most situations. This does not at all seem representative of the bulk of reality to me. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/95 "2015-06-21T14:42:16Z")
> [@Tzigone](#): > > This does not at all seem representative of the bulk of reality to me. Perhaps you should look up the definition of “some”. And a few other qualifiers Chauve used. ---
**Author:** ![Chauve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5daacb/32.png) [@Chauve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chauve)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/96 "2015-06-21T14:43:45Z")
> [@Tzigone](#): > > This does not at all seem representative of the bulk of reality to me. Narcissists and their enablers come in both sexes. Sometimes the guy is the narcissist and the put-upon wife is the enabler. Sometimes the woman is the narcissist and the hen-pecked husband is the enabler. I’ve seen plenty of entitled, spoiled narcissists _of both sexes_ trailing an abused, shat-upon spouse after them. The answer: People need to stand up for themselves. And men sometimes need as much help with that as women do. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/97 "2015-06-21T15:11:42Z")
> [@Chauve](#): > > Narcissists and their enablers come in both sexes. Sometimes the guy is the narcissist and the put-upon wife is the enabler. Sometimes the woman is the narcissist and the hen-pecked husband is the enabler. > > I’ve seen plenty of entitled, spoiled narcissists _of both sexes_ trailing an abused, shat-upon spouse after them. The answer: **People need to stand up for themselves**. And men sometimes need as much help with that as women do. Bolding mine. Yep. Unfortunately, it seems to me that kids are being taught to run to the first ‘authority’ figure to ‘fix’ the problem when trouble comes up. Many of these kids are adults now, and don’t know where to turn, or how to fix the problem on their own. ---
**Author:** ![Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eyebrows_0f_doom/32/3119_2.png) [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eyebrows_0f_Doom)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/98 "2015-06-21T16:03:16Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > What’s with all the white men this, white men that. There’re no black men here? Asians? Indians? It’s all white men? From the _very first post_ that comes from the site in question: > [@](#): > > A combination of disastrous social engineering, special privileges for women, \*\*the relentless mockery of white men \*\*on the basis of their sex and skin colour ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/99 "2015-06-21T16:37:22Z")
424., ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/100 "2015-06-21T16:53:31Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > I have to wonder how much of [this](http://www.cracked.com/article_19785_5-ways-modern-men-are-trained-to-hate-women.html) is aligned with reality. especially #5; a lot of the crap I see on reddit etc. sounds like a bunch of bitter dudebros who can’t understand why they can’t get a hot girlfriend with no effort on their part. **jz** , perhaps I’ve confused you with someone else but if I remember right you’ve posted here before about having problems dating and relating to women, right? And you’ve been single for a long time? However, you don’t seem to be blaming your problems on a subtle conspiracy against men or a deep-seated problem in modern society. What’s your secret, man? > [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > These same trends aren’t limited to America. The same kind of pattern is promoting demographic collapse in Japan (“herbivores”) and terrorism in the Middle East. It’s probably worth paying attention to and looking at causes. You’re joking, right? Japan and parts of the Middle East have some of the most paternalistic, men-first cultures in the world. Whatever problems white dudes have scoring dates in the West, they’re not the same problems that are turning Japanese into “herbivores” or driving young men in the Middle East to terrorism. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022.md?page=6)