# Men going their own way (MGTOW) **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 20, 2015, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022 "2015-06-20T19:21:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/101 "2015-06-21T17:16:37Z")
Several posters seem to be implying that maybe in some areas the pendulum has perhaps swung a little far. But if you look at the centuries when girls were sold into marriage, biology was destiny, challenging a man could see a woman burned as a witch. Or even more modern times when women couldn’t vote, or inherit property, or divorce, when it was okay to beat your wife, etc. My point is if you’re unhappy with the way the pendulum is swinging currently surely the blame must lay with those responsible for pulling it back so far, for all those centuries, yes? Because that’s what’s causing it to swing too far for your tastes now. As I must, it will settle into some comfortable middle with time. Till then I suppose you’ll just have to wait for things to turn your way. Like women did. For centuries. As for men going their own way, I say: “You Go!” Please! I’ve got a feeling these guys end up as pathetic old men getting fleeced out of their pension cheques by crack whores. But I could be wrong, it’s only a guess! ---
**Author:** ![jimbuff314](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c57346/32.png) [@jimbuff314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimbuff314)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/102 "2015-06-21T17:19:03Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > 424., [424](http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=424). **even sven**! I am shocked! (And slightly titillated) ---
**Author:** ![Dibbs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/da6949/32.png) [@Dibbs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dibbs)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/103 "2015-06-21T17:19:51Z")
We share a world with a very powerful and brilliant spiritual being, Satan. He loves putting enmity between people. People that belong to different races, genders, ages, cultures, … and sometimes it even starts off as “harmless jokes” and from there evolves into ridicule and … humiliation and ultimately to hatred and murder. Rocker Mick Jagger once sang a song about Satan’s clever ways, “But what’s troubling you, is it the nature of my game?” I say take a step back, take a deep breath, and see what’s really going on in this horrible evil and screwed up world! ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/104 "2015-06-21T17:38:21Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > Some aspects of it are clearly very healthy. Like not having your self-worth being determined by the other sex (in fact, not letting anybody dictate your life priorities). Every man should define his own success, which is not dependent on female validation (and quite a bit of female shaming going on in this thread). > > Opting out of the whole miserable corporate rat-race and going fishing instead, sounds like an excellent life choice when the work is soul robbing, the hours are long, and the reward not falling in your own hands. I’ve kinda taken that road myself (not opting out of chicks though), I’ll be fucked if I’m going to work my ass off and pay 50% in tax. It’s the lives of quiet desperation eating up the soul of countless men – just don’t. Say no. > > Opting out of marriage also seems a sound choice, if only a fraction of what you hear coming out of the USA is true (men being forced to pay child support for bastard children; men not being allowed, or only rarely allowed, to see their children, monthly alimony payments in the thousands of dollars, etc.) Not to mention all the completely ridiculous nonsense you heard with expensive rings (three months salary for a diamond ring? What the fuck for??!), gigantic and expensive weddings (which the brides’ parents are supposed to pay for?! What the fuck for?!), bridezilla going bananas, destination weddings, and what not (I heard the other day, you have Wedding Planner Consultants. Like this is an actually full time profession – it’s impossible to explain how completely bonkers that sounds). Many women seem to want a wedding, not a marriage. And with no-fault divorces what’s the deal anyway? You can just live together, a marriage doesn’t equal love. Unless you’re Christian and are looking for divine sanction there’s no point to it anymore. > > Family courts are fucked. Not just in the US/UK. One thing I’ve heard a number of times, is that in France it’s illegal to perform your own paternity tests on your own (presumed) children. Don’t know the truth of it, but if correct then it is fucked indeed. I’ve never ever heard of a woman being convicted of paternity fraud (a crime many times worse than rape), but plenty of men being forced to pay of kids not their own. > > The general denigration of traditional masculine values. If society doesn’t value, or indeed actively despise, what you are, then you’re well served to turn your back on society. > > But just in general, define your own self worth and what priorities you have in life seems to be the central aspect of it. Can’t see how anybody can disagree with those tenets. Don’t know that’s what it’s all about - haven’t read enough to know. But I did notice the shaming, too, and it’s ironic (if that’s the right word), because by doing it they’re making MGTOW’s point for them. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/105 "2015-06-21T17:45:41Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > Fwiw, I have a lot of sympathy for this mindset - exempting the ‘hatred’ - and I guess I’ve been living that way for 20 years or so. > > For me, it’s just about a ‘quiet life’. > > The quote about boys in lower school is exactly how I feel - girls and boys are intrinsically different and the latter are punished for natural energy or ‘exuberance’. > > It’s out and out sexism - ‘you must behave more like girls’. > > Fwiw, first lesson of the day should be to make 'em run around until they fall over - then they can concentrate better 🙂 It’s a shame the schooling matriarchy is so inflexible and ignores what the stats say about boys performance (falling further and further behind girls). You might like [this story](http://www.mgtow.com/the-water-fountain/). ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/106 "2015-06-21T17:57:17Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > My point is if you’re unhappy with the way the pendulum is swinging currently surely the blame must lay with those responsible for pulling it back so far, for all those centuries, yes? Ahh, the old your ancestors screwed over my ancestor so fuck you and suck it up now gambit. An oldy but a goody. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/107 "2015-06-21T17:59:23Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > I know a great group of people who are really concerned about the harm that strict gender roles cause. > > They want movies and TV to focus on fully fleshed out characters, not just gendered stereotypes. They want a successful life to be defined by living to your own personal values, rather than by how well you got some gender mould. They want to reexamine the kinds of relationships we have, not just rushing into marriage for the sake of it, but rather seeking authentic, loving relations (or sometimes quick, sexy flings) in whatever form works. They want to rethink the roles of gender in parenting, encouraging both parents to play an active role and encouraging workplaces to accommodate that. They want to destigmatize sex, removing the mass of judgements around who is and isn’t having it. > > These are, of course, the feminists. Feminists and men are natural allies in breaking down strict gender roles and encouraging people to find the kinds of lives the want and the kinds of relationships they want, while encouraging everyone to take responsibility for their financial security and their children. > > So any group that claims to be fighting for gender equality while demonizing feminism and taking potshots at women- well, they are pretty hard to take seriously. > > “We don’t like the way things are and we want to imagine a better future” is one thing. “We don’t like the way things are and we want to go back to an imagined past when we just happened to be on top” is less convincing. I know about feminists too, but I’ve taken a very different lesson from what they say and what they do than you have. Not saying you’re wrong, just that we have a difference of opinion. Feminism is not about equality. Women will gladly embrace gender inequality when it yields preferential outcomes. Feminism is about making things better for women. With a healthy dash man-hating thrown in. Not saying you’re wrong, mate. Just saying seem have had different experiences of the same thing. Also, and FWIW, MGTOW explicitly reject “patriarchy” (whatever that means). In fact, one of their more prominent complaints concerns what they call the 'White Knight" syndrome. The cultural expectation put on men (the patriarchal expectation put on men) is that they’re supposed to ‘save’ women and protect them. In extreme cases, against not just real threats, but whatever women claim is a threat to them. MTGOW says - and I’m not saying agree, just telling you what they say - that feminism doesn’t reject patriarchy, it _ **uses** _ it to obtain better outcomes for women. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/108 "2015-06-21T18:13:29Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > Also, and FWIW, MGTOW explicitly reject “patriarchy” (whatever that means). In fact, one of their more prominent complaints concerns what they call the 'White Knight" syndrome. Even more prominent than their complaints about [parades](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18455496&postcount=61)? ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/109 "2015-06-21T18:37:52Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > I’m sorry to hear that your state has such backwards policies, but I don’t think it has to do with the topic at hand… I was mentioning Texas Republicans cutting funding to education. To answer your claim that, since some boys were doing badly in school, our limited educational resources must be taken from girls to focus on boys. Are you one of the guys who wants to cut educational funding because\* you\* don’t have kids? These stingy fellows are active in all the states. (And overseas, I believe.) In fact, some of your overseas pals kidnap or kill girls trying to educate themselves. Why not have a general policy to improve education for everybody? Well, at least the MGTOW are an idiot fringe. About as representative of most men as **Rune** ’s fantasized feminists are of real women. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/110 "2015-06-21T19:01:57Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > Even more prominent than their complaints about [parades](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18455496&postcount=61)? man, they really sound like dudebros now. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/111 "2015-06-21T19:07:05Z")
> [@](#): > > Quote: > Originally Posted by elbows View Post > > My point is if you’re unhappy with the way the pendulum is swinging currently surely the blame must lay with those responsible for pulling it back so far, for all those centuries, yes? > > Ahh, the old your ancestors screwed over my ancestor so fuck you and suck it up now gambit. > > An oldy but a goody. Um, er, uh, pretty clearly not the point I was making. At all. In any way. It was complete male dominance for centuries, that drew the pendulum so far back, that it was destined to swing this far the other way. Blaming women is utterly disengenuis! (I’m not sure if you’re being purposely obtuse, or just need to work on comprehension, to be honest!) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/112 "2015-06-21T19:09:27Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > My point is if you’re unhappy with the way the pendulum is swinging currently surely the blame must lay with those responsible for pulling it back so far, for all those centuries, yes? > > Ahh, the old your ancestors screwed over my ancestor so fuck you and suck it up now gambit. > > An oldy but a goody. Is it, though? I mean, if I rail against affirmative action and say _why can’t we just have a level playing field starting right now,_ and a black guy replies _because your ancestors screwed over my ancestors,_ I can get where he’s coming from because I can see where he’s going with that. But if my sister says _your ancestors screwed over my ancestors,_ how the heck should I reply? _“Hey, me too; same proportion and everything; what are the odds, huh?”_ ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/113 "2015-06-21T19:13:01Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > You’re joking, right? Japan and parts of the Middle East have some of the most paternalistic, men-first cultures in the world. Whatever problems white dudes have scoring dates in the West, they’re not the same problems that are turning Japanese into “herbivores” or driving young men in the Middle East to terrorism. Think more broadly. In the ME, we have shitty economies and a cultural system that utterly fails to prepare young men to interact with women like humans. Terrorists tend to be educated but have few job opportunities. So they have neither the resources nor social skills to attract mates, and turn to extremism. In Japan, we have a cultural system that expects men to work very long hours to support their family (“salarymen”). It’s not really optional when starting a family, since home prices and everything else is so expensive. And while it’s not as bad as elsewhere, they also have the problem of undersocialization. They choose to quietly “opt out”, which is better than extremism but contributes to the economic problems. So no, not exactly the same, but there are some clear patterns: - Poor economies and missing job opportunities - Static social expectations but changing environments - Increasing costs to starting a family - Failure to properly socialize boys with girls The more I think about it, the more I realize that **even sven** was right on the money when she said that feminists would be natural allies with these men. Paternalistic societies may harm women more than men, but they don’t harm _all_ women more than _all_ men, and in the end they harm everybody a lot. Unfortunately, the poor socialization harms their very ability to gain these allies. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/114 "2015-06-21T19:20:00Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > Why not have a general policy to improve education for everybody? That’s great, but you still have to allocate resources. With the current allocation, we see outcomes that are worse for men than women, and the gap is increasing. That suggests that the allocation might be tweaked a bit. That said, I also don’t think that throwing money is the right solution. It’s the style of education that’s the bigger problem. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/115 "2015-06-21T19:20:13Z")
> [@Dibbs](#): > > We share a world with a very powerful and brilliant spiritual being, Satan. No. We don’t. :dubious: (Og, how I wish we still had the old rolleyes.) ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/116 "2015-06-21T19:44:17Z")
> [@jimbuff314](#): > > [424](http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=424). > > **even sven**! I am shocked! (And slightly titillated) Note to self: lock phone before giving phone to baby. Let’s look at a common MRA cause- custody. Now, there are two causes of disparate custody outcomes (I’ll ignore, for the moment, people who don’t actually seek custody of their kids). One is an essentialist argument, something along the lines of “women are natural caregivers and nurturers, and are inherently better suited to parenting.” This argument is used in the handful of states that have mother’s custody as the default over joint custody. You know who is against that line of thinking? Feminists. Feminism generally strong rejects essentialism and the idea that women were made to nurture and men were made not to. The other reason is that custody takes into account who serves as the primary caregiver- who feeds the kids, takes them to dance class, goes to the PTA meetings, etc. This is often women. Why? One is just plain old gender roles playing out in the family. Feminism is generally against this, and would like to see a more equal distribution of caregiving. The other is that men have a harder time achieving work-life balance. Feminists are also against this. They would like to see more balance between male and female careers, with women “leaning in” while men have more stigma-free access to things like paternity leave and alternate work schedules. They would like to see family friendly workplaces for everyone. ---
**Author:** ![Dibbs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/da6949/32.png) [@Dibbs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dibbs)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/117 "2015-06-21T19:52:57Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > No. > > We don’t. > > :dubious: > (Og, how I wish we still had the old rolleyes.) Actually, I do know that Satan is indeed real. If you’re up to it, you might consider asking The Good Lord to have you go through a “certain” experience He had me go through back around 1967. He’ll of course know who you’re talking about and the experience in question if you simply say with sincerity something like, “Dear Jesus. The fellow that calls himself Dibbs says that if I ask you to have me experience that which he says he experienced many years ago regarding the question of whether or not Satan is real, that you might see fit to do it. Well, I’m skeptical, so please go ahead and let me have said experience sometime in the near future. Thank you.” It of course all depends on whether or not The Good Lord sees fit to do it. He might not, who knows? BUT, if He does, then all I can say is that as much as it’s possible to do, try to keep in the back of your mind that’ll only last for no more than one minute! (About 40-seconds, as I recall.) Good luck and be sure to report back here in the event that Jesus answers your prayer… P.S. You might say that you can’t because you don’t believe in Jesus, either. If that’s the case, then all I can say is that you should give it a shot anyway because then you’d know about His existence as well as the other entities existence all in one fell swoop! It would be a win, win! ---
**Author:** ![Chauve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5daacb/32.png) [@Chauve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chauve)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/118 "2015-06-21T20:05:24Z")
> [@Dibbs](#): > > Actually, I do know that Satan is indeed real. > > If you’re up to it, you might consider asking The Good Lord to have you go through a “certain” experience He had me go through back around 1967. He’ll of course know who you’re talking about and the experience in question if you simply say with sincerity something like, “Dear Jesus. The fellow that calls himself Dibbs says that if I ask you to have me experience that which he says he experienced many years ago regarding the question of whether or not Satan is real, that you might see fit to do it. Well, I’m skeptical, so please go ahead and let me have said experience sometime in the near future. Thank you.” > > It of course all depends on whether or not The Good Lord sees fit to do it. He might not, who knows? BUT, if He does, then all I can say is that as much as it’s possible to do, try to keep in the back of your mind that’ll only last for no more than one minute! (About 40-seconds, as I recall.) > > Good luck and be sure to report back here in the event that Jesus answers your prayer… > > P.S. You might say that you can’t because you don’t believe in Jesus, either. If that’s the case, then all I can say is that you should give it a shot anyway because then you’d know about His existence as well as the other entities existence all in one fell swoop! It would be a win, win! Is religious proselytizing germaine to this thread? You haven’t even related your religious beliefs to the subject matter of the thread, other than to say, “People hate each other because Satan.” You could throw that into any thread on the SDMB. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/119 "2015-06-21T20:06:20Z")
> [@Dibbs](#): > > Actually, I do know that Satan is indeed real. > > If you’re up to it, you might consider asking The Good Lord to have you go through a “certain” experience He had me go through back around 1967. He’ll of course know who you’re talking about and the experience in question if you simply say with sincerity something like, “Dear Jesus. The fellow that calls himself Dibbs says that if I ask you to have me experience that which he says he experienced many years ago regarding the question of whether or not Satan is real, that you might see fit to do it. Well, I’m skeptical, so please go ahead and let me have said experience sometime in the near future. Thank you.” > > It of course all depends on whether or not The Good Lord sees fit to do it. He might not, who knows? BUT, if He does, then all I can say is that as much as it’s possible to do, try to keep in the back of your mind that’ll only last for no more than one minute! (About 40-seconds, as I recall.) > > Good luck and be sure to report back here in the event that Jesus answers your prayer… > > P.S. You might say that you can’t because you don’t believe in Jesus, either. If that’s the case, then all I can say is that you should give it a shot anyway because then you’d know about His existence as well as the other entities existence all in one fell swoop! It would be a win, win! Why be coy? Do tell us of this experience. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/120 "2015-06-21T20:21:21Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > Because mainstream media has for their entire existence blasted them with the idea that marriage+kids is the end point for all well-adjusted men? 1. This is not the fault of feminists. In fact, feminists talk frequently about how gender stereotypes hurt everybody. This pressure from mainstream media’s portrayal of men’s social order is coming from other men who use it as a way to pressure girls into traditional marriage. Traditionally, men have benefited from this because it gives them a captive housekeeper and sex partner. If that’s not working any more, well, good. If you don’t want the pressure of traditional gender roles any more, take it up with the 700 club. 1. Regardless of the social message that is being sent to men, it pales next to the way that, for three thousand years, Western culture has been engineered to force women into having no other option for their survival but to acquire and serve men. It’s not a surprise that some men are bitter that the old ways don’t work for them any more. Nonetheless, complaining that they are the victims here shows a shocking lack of historical perspective. It’s not much different than the way Southerners complained about how uppity and dangerous black people were after their slavery status was imposed on them. > [@LinusK](#): > > I guess I’m not sure what you’re getting at. The message I get from the “man on knees” icon is they don’t want to be in that kind of relationship. You, I’m guessing, see it as misogyny. They’re not using the subjunctive. They’re not talking hypothetically.,They’re talking literally about how feminism wants to impose servitude on them. It is to laugh. Hence, the laughter. The fact that they’re coupling it with the whole five-year-olf-running-away act just makes it funnier. “I’m going my own way! Really! Here I go! You can’t stop me. I’m leaving now. Ok, this time, I’m really going! I mean, it! Try and stop me! Really! Just try! I’m not kidding! GAWD, women are so mean for not stopping me! It’s so unfair!” > [@](#): > > I see it as a reaction to 40+ years of feminism. Maybe someone saw one too many “[I BATHE IN MALE TEARS](http://www.lookhuman.com/design/33890-i-bathe-in-male-tears)” tank-tops. (Ages 0: +) See this is what I’m talking about, for the historical perspective. 1. You do realize that for every pic of a woman in that tank top, I can find you one of a man in similar misogynictic tank top? In other words, _who gives a shit?_ 2. Secondly, these thousands of years of oppressing women didn’t stop forty years ago. **In our life times** , doctors have refused to give birth control to women unless their husbands approved? Landlords and banks have refused to deal with women unless their husbands or fathers were involved? People still argue that it’s impossible for a husband to rape his wife. And you want to whine to me about a goddamn tank top? The only reason I have access to education, financing, legal protections is because of feminism. That’s the only reason my life with computers is possible. And there are still big chunks of this planet who think I should be beaten and enslaved or worse. Meanwhile, Dipshits going their own way tell me, to my face, that they want to get a “real” woman - from those very cultures where women are oppressed - someone who knows how to be a traditional wife. Get the fuck out, already. > [@](#): > > What _is_ respecting women? > > What is respecting men? It’s exactly the same thing in both cases. > [@even\_sven](#): > > I know a great group of people who are really concerned about the harm that strict gender roles cause. > > They want movies and TV to focus on fully fleshed out characters, not just gendered stereotypes. They want a successful life to be defined by living to your own personal values, rather than by how well you got some gender mould. They want to reexamine the kinds of relationships we have, not just rushing into marriage for the sake of it, but rather seeking authentic, loving relations (or sometimes quick, sexy flings) in whatever form works. They want to rethink the roles of gender in parenting, encouraging both parents to play an active role and encouraging workplaces to accommodate that. They want to destigmatize sex, removing the mass of judgements around who is and isn’t having it. > > These are, of course, the feminists. Feminists and men are natural allies in breaking down strict gender roles and encouraging people to find the kinds of lives the want and the kinds of relationships they want, while encouraging everyone to take responsibility for their financial security and their children. > > So any group that claims to be fighting for gender equality while demonizing feminism and taking potshots at women- well, they are pretty hard to take seriously. > > “We don’t like the way things are and we want to imagine a better future” is one thing. “We don’t like the way things are and we want to go back to an imagined past when we just happened to be on top” is less convincing. \*\*even sven - \*\*I’m glad you’re able to say what I want to say, only better. > [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > When did this place get so damned bitter? And for a place that prides itself on fighting ignorance, really, do so many of you actually believe that any woman can get any man thrown into jail or fired for rape or sexual harassment? Is this real life? It’s a reaction to the last eight years of conservative partisanship over Barack Obama. Just as racism has been more open, lately. The same people who have been stoking racist white people’s anger also have a vested interest in stoking sexist anger ahead of Hilary’s run for president. It’s no coincidence that Breitbart has been supporting Gamergate all these months, for example. It sucks, but we have to have this out, I guess. The good news is the tide is shifting on racism and sexism. They don’t stand up well to sunlight. > [@LinusK](#): > > I know about feminists too, but I’ve taken a very different lesson from what they say and what they do than you have. Not saying you’re wrong, just that we have a difference of opinion. Feminism is not about equality. Women will gladly embrace gender inequality when it yields preferential outcomes. Feminism is about making things better for women. With a healthy dash man-hating thrown in. > > Not saying you’re wrong, mate. Just saying seem have had different experiences of the same thing. Not only are you wrong, I don’t believe for a minute that you really have made any study of feminism at all. The main point, of course, is that while there are certainly women who want to see all men tarred and feathered, the majority of feminists disagree and disown them. You don’t see us supporting them here, downplaying how toxic their message is and pretending like really, they have some good points, because you know, sometimes men wear mean t-shirts. > [@](#): > > Also, and FWIW, MGTOW explicitly reject “patriarchy” (whatever that means). In fact, one of their more prominent complaints concerns what they call the 'White Knight" syndrome. Bullshit. They support patriarchal gender roles for women, where women are meant to keep house and wait on men. That’s why they talk about how much they hate Western women but love women from places like Japan and Thailand. They sound just like the Taliban, in that regard. They know exactly what the partriarchy means when it comes to imposing it on someone else. It’s only their own partriarchal responsibilities they’re complainging about - having a good job, a nice homw and so on. That’s the part they resent. The White Knighting claim - that’s not a rejection of tradtional gender roles. That’s just part of their stupid anti-Social Justice Warrior terminology. In their circles, calling someone a SJW is the same as the old “niggerlover” claim. It’s an attempt to threaten and shame someone into abandoning support for the enemy position. > [@](#): > > The cultural expectation put on men (the patriarchal expectation put on men) is that they’re supposed to ‘save’ women and protect them. In extreme cases, against not just real threats, but whatever women claim is a threat to them. MTGOW says - and I’m not saying agree, just telling you what they say - that feminism doesn’t reject patriarchy, it _ **uses** _ it to obtain better outcomes for women. Yeah, you don’t agree, you just spend post after post defending them. The problem with your interpertation is threefold: 1. It’s not feminists who want men to protect women at all costs and put us on pedestals. 2. MGTOW blame feminists for imposing this ideal of men protecting women at all cost. 3. MGOTW talk about this ideal of men protecting women and putting them on pedestals as a recent development that feminism has imposed on them. Real history is full of men kicking women in the teeth every chance they get. The idea that men have all been living a preux chevaliers for the last three thousand years is risible. Even in the Victorian era, where high class women were put on pedestals, lower class women were still getting it in the shorts. You think the servants who scrubbed on their hands and knees - not allowed to own property, not allowed to make legal decisions, not allowed to get educated, not allowed to report if someone rapes them - you think men were sacrificing themselves for those women? Feminists are saying that we don’t need men to treat us like goddesses (something mose women never experienced anyway. ) Feminists are saying we want the same legal rights as the men have. It’s possible that the MGOTW are just raging morons who have no grasp of history, gender roles or social expectations. It’s also possible that they are malevolent, disingenuous, sexist fuckwits. Me, I’m thinking it’s both. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022.md?page=7)