# Men going their own way (MGTOW) **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 20, 2015, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022 "2015-06-20T19:21:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/121 "2015-06-21T20:26:56Z")
> [@Chauve](#): > > Is religious proselytizing germaine to this thread? You haven’t even related your religious beliefs to the subject matter of the thread, other than to say, “People hate each other because Satan.” You could throw that into any thread on the SDMB. I hate other people because I’m just an asshole sometimes. But that’s just me. ---
**Author:** ![Dibbs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/da6949/32.png) [@Dibbs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dibbs)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/122 "2015-06-21T20:53:08Z")
> [@Chauve](#): > > Is religious proselytizing germaine to this thread? You haven’t even related your religious beliefs to the subject matter of the thread, other than to say, “People hate each other because Satan.” You could throw that into any thread on the SDMB. Proselytizing? I didn’t? I could? Are you sure of these things? At post #103 I simply added my perspective on what I see going on in this most troubled world and, as far as I can determine, my comment is indeed germane to OP’s question. And from there someone took issue with that whom I maintain is at the heart of all the hostility … and I responded in earnest. So how is that harming you, Chauve? ---
**Author:** ![Chauve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5daacb/32.png) [@Chauve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chauve)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/123 "2015-06-21T20:58:18Z")
> [@Dibbs](#): > > Proselytizing? > > I didn’t? > > I could? > > Are you sure of these things? > > At post #103 I simply added my perspective on what I see going on in this most troubled world and, as far as I can determine, my comment is indeed germane to OP’s question. And from there someone took issue with that whom I maintain is at the heart of all the hostility … and I responded in earnest. > > So how is that harming you, Chauve? It seemed like a distraction. But oh well. No harm done, I guess. Why not? By all means, let’s divert this thread and make it all about you describing your very special relationship with Jesus and God. Please. Carry on. At length. ---
**Author:** ![Dibbs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/da6949/32.png) [@Dibbs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dibbs)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/124 "2015-06-21T21:07:18Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > Why be coy? Do tell us of this experience. kaylasdad99 might go ahead and take me up on my suggestion, so I’d rather let some time pass and see what happens with that. But thanks for your interest and, who knows, maybe I will eventually relate the incident, though some folks might take strong exception if I do.🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/125 "2015-06-21T21:11:07Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > 1. This is not the fault of feminists. In fact, feminists talk frequently about how gender stereotypes hurt everybody. If you read some of my other posts, you’ll find that I’m in agreement with **even sven** on this matter. > [@Merneith](#): > > This pressure from mainstream media’s portrayal of men’s social order is coming from other men who use it as a way to pressure girls into traditional marriage. That I don’t buy (the part about it being solely other men, that is). The thing about social orders is that everyone participates, often whether they know it or not and whether they are the beneficiaries or not. Put another way, if you just took the top male CEOs from media/fashion/etc. companies and replaced them with women, there wouldn’t be a bit of change. The problems are structural. Though perhaps it will change on its own when enough of the existing crowd die out. > [@Merneith](#): > > 1. Regardless of the social message that is being sent to men, it pales next to the way that, for three thousand years, Western culture has been engineered to force women into having no other option for their survival but to acquire and serve men. I agree. My idea of equality is not to fix past wrongs, but to fix current wrongs. > [@Merneith](#): > > It’s not much different than the way Southerners complained about how uppity and dangerous black people were after their slavery status was imposed on them. It’s different. In the south, individual landholders that benefited from slavery had their slaves released. They whined, but fuck 'em, because they benefited for years from the system. They still ended up with a lot. Here, though, the individuals in question never benefited from the old system. These aren’t 60 year old men complaining that they can’t treat their wives like shit anymore. They’re young men that got a shitty education and were dumped in an economy that can no longer run on undereducated workers, and were socialized in a way that doesn’t match reality. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/126 "2015-06-21T21:12:19Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/127 "2015-06-21T21:15:23Z")
> [@Dibbs](#): > > kaylasdad99 might go ahead and take me up on my suggestion, so I’d rather let some time pass and see what happens with that. But thanks for your interest and, who knows, maybe I will eventually relate the incident, though some folks might take strong exception if I do.🙂 Feel free to head over to GD with your testimony. I do not share your concept of the divine, and have no interest in running the experiment you have suggested. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/128 "2015-06-21T21:39:54Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Exactly. The common thread with these people is how entitled they feel. They think that because they were born with white skin and a penis, they should be handed what they want instead of having to go and work for it. They see other people with good jobs and good relationships and they think _“That was supposed to be mine!”_ And they think those other people stole their entitlement. > > These people need to be slapped a couple times and have reality explained to them. They need to be told _“Nobody stole anything. Nobody was given anything. Those people got good jobs and good relationships because they went out and worked to get them. While you sat there and expected somebody to hand it to you.”_ Actually, I haven’t that any of them want want to be given anything. Or that they’re even asking for anything. What I’ve read is that they’ve decided to make their own choices, based on what (they believe) is actually reality, rather than the fairy tales they grew up on. So, basically the opposite of what you said. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/129 "2015-06-21T21:50:38Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > When did this place get so damned bitter? And for a place that prides itself on fighting ignorance, really, do so many of you actually believe that any woman can get any man thrown into jail or fired for rape or sexual harassment? Is this real life? Um. Of course she can. All she has to do is say she was raped. Now I don’t want to go too far down that road. She has to be at least moderately convincing. She has to make sure the defendant wasn’t out of state, or has some other iron-clad alibi. But any woman who actually has sex with a man can later decide she’s been raped. And with any luck, he’ll go to jail with a $200k+ bond. So he’d better have money, if he wants to get out again. And of course, the mere accusation of rape can ruin a man’s life, even if it goes no where. Just out of curiosity, what other thing do you think a woman needs to throw a man in jail for rape, other than saying she was raped? ---
**Author:** ![Dibbs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/da6949/32.png) [@Dibbs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dibbs)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/130 "2015-06-21T21:52:46Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Feel free to head over to GD with your testimony. I do not share your concept of the divine, and have no interest in running the experiment you have suggested. Your loss. ---
**Author:** ![Dibbs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/da6949/32.png) [@Dibbs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dibbs)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/131 "2015-06-21T22:03:26Z")
> [@Chauve](#): > > It seemed like a distraction. > > But oh well. No harm done, I guess. Why not? By all means, let’s divert this thread and make it all about you describing your very special relationship with Jesus and God. > > Please. Carry on. At length. Are you sure you wouldn’t rather make it about you coming after me … and then getting called out on it?:eek: My apology to the OP, I never meant for things to go so off track. ---
**Author:** ![robertliguori](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@robertliguori](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robertliguori)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/132 "2015-06-21T22:15:26Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > Um. Of course she can. All she has to do is say she was raped. > > Now I don’t want to go too far down that road. She has to be at least moderately convincing. She has to make sure the defendant wasn’t out of state, or has some other iron-clad alibi. > > But any woman who actually has sex with a man can later decide she’s been raped. And with any luck, he’ll go to jail with a $200k+ bond. So he’d better have money, if he wants to get out again. > > And of course, the mere accusation of rape can ruin a man’s life, even if it goes no where. > > Just out of curiosity, what other thing do you think a woman needs to throw a man in jail for rape, other than saying she was raped? Is this the case? I mean, I’ve heard lots of stories of people going to the police and being told that if it comes down to your word vs. theirs, you simply won’t win the trial, and get a great deal of reluctance and foot-dragging from the police in actually starting the investigation. Does anyone have stats on this? * * * Also, does anyone else really want to sneakily arrange to double-book a campground with a MGTOW retreat and a lesbian separatist retreat at the same time? ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/133 "2015-06-21T22:19:46Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > Think more broadly. > > In the ME, we have shitty economies and a cultural system that utterly fails to prepare young men to interact with women like humans. Terrorists tend to be educated but have few job opportunities. So they have neither the resources nor social skills to attract mates, and turn to extremism. > > In Japan, we have a cultural system that expects men to work very long hours to support their family (“salarymen”). It’s not really optional when starting a family, since home prices and everything else is so expensive. And while it’s not as bad as elsewhere, they also have the problem of undersocialization. They choose to quietly “opt out”, which is better than extremism but contributes to the economic problems. > Yet > So no, not exactly the same, but there are some clear patterns: > > - Poor economies and missing job opportunities > - Static social expectations but changing environments > - Increasing costs to starting a family > - Failure to properly socialize boys with girls > > The more I think about it, the more I realize that **even sven** was right on the money when she said that feminists would be natural allies with these men. Paternalistic societies may harm women more than men, but they don’t harm _all_ women more than _all_ men, and in the end they harm everybody a lot. Unfortunately, the poor socialization harms their very ability to gain these allies. KoolAid is just too damn sweet for my tastes. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/134 "2015-06-21T22:23:46Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > Actually, I haven’t that any of them want want to be given anything. Or that they’re even asking for anything. > > What I’ve read is that they’ve decided to make their own choices, based on what (they believe) is actually reality, rather than the fairy tales they grew up on. > > So, basically the opposite of what you said. Maybe those of us outside the movement have a better overall view of what it really is. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/135 "2015-06-21T22:44:56Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > Um. Of course she can. All she has to do is say she was raped. > > Now I don’t want to go too far down that road. She has to be at least moderately convincing. She has to make sure the defendant wasn’t out of state, or has some other iron-clad alibi. > > But any woman who actually has sex with a man can later decide she’s been raped. And with any luck, he’ll go to jail with a $200k+ bond. So he’d better have money, if he wants to get out again. > > And of course, the mere accusation of rape can ruin a man’s life, even if it goes no where. > > Just out of curiosity, what other thing do you think a woman needs to throw a man in jail for rape, other than saying she was raped? I think a lot of it depends on who you are, whether the police are sympathetic, how long it’s been. But no, I don’t think that getting thrown in rape just because a woman says so is a realistic danger. Yes, there are some false reports of rape, but considering the obstacles women face when they try to report assault/rape, as well as the fact that so many rapes go unreported or unprosecuted, I don’t think think it’s really worth your time to worry about this. The idea that a woman might get mad at you and on a whim have you carted off to jail…it’s a little ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/136 "2015-06-21T22:47:44Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Originally Posted by Chauve View Post > > Narcissists and their enablers come in both sexes. Sometimes the guy is the narcissist and the put-upon wife is the enabler. Sometimes the woman is the narcissist and the hen-pecked husband is the enabler. > > > > I’ve seen plenty of entitled, spoiled narcissists _of both sexes_ trailing an abused, shat-upon spouse after them. The answer: People need to stand up for themselves. And men sometimes need as much help with that as women do. > > Bolding mine. > > Yep. Unfortunately, it seems to me that kids are being taught to run to the first ‘authority’ figure to ‘fix’ the problem when trouble comes up. Many of these kids are adults now, and don’t know where to turn, or how to fix the problem on their own. FWIW, according to MGTOW, that’s (standing up for themselves) is what they’re doing. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/137 "2015-06-21T22:49:54Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > And of course, the mere accusation of rape can ruin a man’s life, even if it goes no where. You mean like it used to be that a _woman’s_ life was ruined by a mere accusation that she was raped? You mean like how TODAY there are parts of the world where women who are raped are _put to death_ for having sex outside of marriage? > [@](#): > > Just out of curiosity, what other thing do you think a woman needs to throw a man in jail for rape, other than saying she was raped? Proof? Of course, being white and middle class or above helps, too, it makes her more credible than she would be if non-white or poor. Poor, minority women really hit the trifecta on something like that. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/138 "2015-06-21T23:07:37Z")
Even if we were to sympathize with these men, what is the societal solution to their problems? Are white men being discriminated against? Or is it that everyone is now competing against them when they weren’t before, and they are just coming to terms with this? I can actually sympathize with the resentment that comes from being taught one thing and being blindsided by the reality. I don’t personally feel that resentment. But I can imagine that if I’ve been bombarded with images of “me” ruling the world my entire life, I’d be feeling mighty bad if I ended up in a basement somewhere, with no sense of purpose or future. Maybe society needs to set more realistic expectations and stop filling people’s heads with Hollywood fantasies? But Hollywood fantasies also inspire people to get out of the basement. Maybe white guys need to see more images of failure or something. Living in a basement with three hots and a cot (and an internet connection) isn’t that bad in the grand scheme of things. Maybe if more people grew up in the inner-city projects or in the midst of rural poverty, they’d have a better sense of perspective. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/139 "2015-06-21T23:09:23Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Originally Posted by jz78817 View Post > > I have to wonder how much of this is aligned with reality. especially #5; a lot of the crap I see on reddit etc. sounds like a bunch of bitter dudebros who can’t understand why they can’t get a hot girlfriend with no effort on their part. > > **jz** , perhaps I’ve confused you with someone else but if I remember right you’ve posted here before about having problems dating and relating to women, right? And you’ve been single for a long time? However, you don’t seem to be blaming your problems on a subtle conspiracy against men or a deep-seated problem in modern society. What’s your secret, man? From the FAQ: > [@](#): > > **Do MGTOW have sex? Or are you all virgins who can’t get any?** > > This is one of the dumbest repeat questions we receive. > > Where do you think the exploding population of single mothers comes from? After all, it’s still legal in this country for a woman to allow herself to get pregnant without a man’s consent. If she pulls that stunt, does she really expect her man to stick around? > > Single mothers are the number one cause of single mothers. > > Who do you think had sex with her? A MGHOW, that’s who. It wasn’t her boyfriend. And it sure as hell wasn’t her husband either. So if anyone is not getting any, it’s boyfriends and husbands. Hugh Grant had super-model wife Elizabeth Hurley at home, but she wasn’t getting the job done either. So he went out and got a $60 BJ elsewhere. Another husband who isn’t getting laid. And he was a famous movie actor. This guy paid his Ex-wife to go away with $3 million dollars plus property while she was having sex with his friend for free. > > Only an extreme idiot pretends “MGTOW don’t get laid”. > > Paternity fraud is also legal in all 50 states and Canadian provinces. In fact, DNA test results reveal that as many as 30% of American babies don’t have the father they think they do. And the number is much higher than that, because that only includes women who agree to a DNA test. More proof boyfriends and husbands don’t get any. > > Sex is available to any unmarried man anywhere for much less trouble, effort, money, investment and time than most people want you to believe. Even the married men can get it for less. As soon as you accept this reality, you are forced to stop pretending MGTOW “can’t get any”. With women everywhere publishing articles “where are all the men?”, nobody gets to pretend men aren’t in demand. Men are 49% of the western population. > > Implying women and sex is rare, priceless, unattainable is one of the biggest intellectually-dishonest lies running. women are now more promiscuous than ever. So if women are having more sex than ever with more partners than ever – and they aren’t having sex with their husbands and boyfriends – who are they having sex with? > > Even if a man has only 3 lovers in his entire life, he is getting more than his own grandfather – who had to marry her first. The value of western vagina has plummeted to $0, and sex can be ordered like pizza. It may even surprise you how often it’s there in 30 minutes or it’s free. > > … not that there’s anything wrong with that. > > If a MGTOW isn’t having sex, it’s because he doesn’t want it. Accept it. You and your vagina are not all that. I’m not endorsing any of the above. I’m not endorsing any of the above. However, “whiny men who can’t get laid” is the opposite of what MGTOW thinks it is. Again: “whiny men who can’t get laid” is the opposite of what MGTOW thinks it is. What they’re saying is there’s plenty of “it” out there: you just need to make sure you know the price you’re paying, ahead of time. I’m not endorsing this, btw. I’m not endorsing it. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022/140 "2015-06-21T23:14:26Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Ahh, the old your ancestors screwed over my ancestor so fuck you and suck it up now gambit. > > An oldy but a goody. Well, and it’s especially inept, because those ancestors were her ancestors too. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-going-their-own-way-mgtow/723022.md?page=8)