# Men should have the right to ‘abort’ responsibility for an unborn child, Swedish political group say **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 12, 2016, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-should-have-the-right-to-abort-responsibility-for-an-unborn-child-swedish-political-group-say/748726 "2016-03-12T07:10:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2016, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-should-have-the-right-to-abort-responsibility-for-an-unborn-child-swedish-political-group-say/748726/41 "2016-03-13T01:23:58Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Because a society where men have no responsibility toward their kids by default is likely to be a crappy one? that has nothing to do with the thread. Women have control as to whether they will bear the child and can give it up for adoption. The op is discussing the same right for men. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2016, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-should-have-the-right-to-abort-responsibility-for-an-unborn-child-swedish-political-group-say/748726/42 "2016-03-13T01:51:01Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > After pregnancy occurs, not “after sex”. I can’t imagine a practical way to get people to sign up for this before they ever have sex in the first place. > > I agree. Which is why I said your idea was interesting. I just don’t see it as practical in most cases. But… for those men who are sure about this, and who want to be upfront with their sexual partners, I think it’s a great idea. If I remember correctly, one time when this was brought up, at least one poster was adamant that that was unfair and that he would not in any way approve that. Why? Because coming up with that before sex would mean he would have less chances of getting laid (as some women would probably say “forget this”). ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2016, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-should-have-the-right-to-abort-responsibility-for-an-unborn-child-swedish-political-group-say/748726/43 "2016-03-13T01:51:23Z")
> [@nearwildheaven](#): > > I don’t see a difference between this and a couple, married or not, who splits up and the NCP does the “no child support in exchange for no visitation” thing, which I have been told is not done any more but my personal observations say otherwise - and in almost all cases, it’s for the best. That kind of arrangement happens informally, but child support is still owed. The custodial parent can choose not to pursue it…so long as they never need anything like food stamps. The state doesn’t want to pay for kids if there’s another parent’s money out there, so it will file for child support over the custodial parent’s objections. ---
**Author:** ![spamforbrains](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@spamforbrains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spamforbrains)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2016, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-should-have-the-right-to-abort-responsibility-for-an-unborn-child-swedish-political-group-say/748726/44 "2016-03-13T03:11:09Z")
> [@](#): > > A woman can choose to have sex and choose to become parent, or choose to have an abortion. > > A man who chooses to have sex has no choice whatsoever. that’s not true. Men can get vasectomies BEFORE they have sex. Ergo, no problems. Bank some sperm for future children, go get the simple procedure done, and then you will never end up in this situation. Never understood why so few men do this, especially considering how often condoms fail. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2016, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-should-have-the-right-to-abort-responsibility-for-an-unborn-child-swedish-political-group-say/748726/45 "2016-03-13T03:32:23Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > that has nothing to do with the thread. Women have control as to whether they will bear the child and can give it up for adoption. The op is discussing the same right for men. A woman certainly cannot put a child up for adoption over the fathers objection. A woman who does not intend to care for her children is on the hook for child support, just like men are. ---
**Author:** ![drewder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@drewder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewder)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2016, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-should-have-the-right-to-abort-responsibility-for-an-unborn-child-swedish-political-group-say/748726/46 "2016-03-13T03:35:38Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > that has nothing to do with the thread. Women have control as to whether they will bear the child and can give it up for adoption. The op is discussing the same right for men. First of all a woman generally cannot give up the baby for adoption without the father’s approval. Also it has everything to do with the thread laws are instituted in order to improve society. How is society benefited by your decision to dramatically increase the likelihood that your child will be a poor depressed criminal? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2016, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-should-have-the-right-to-abort-responsibility-for-an-unborn-child-swedish-political-group-say/748726/47 "2016-03-13T03:56:07Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > A woman certainly cannot put a child up for adoption over the fathers objection. A woman who does not intend to care for her children is on the hook for child support, just like men are. If that were completely true then women giving up the child for adoption would be on the hook. Clearly women are in the driver’s seat because many children are put up for adoption. What the op is discussing is the right for men to legally terminate their parental rights. In effect, putting their responsibility of the child up for adoption. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2016, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-should-have-the-right-to-abort-responsibility-for-an-unborn-child-swedish-political-group-say/748726/48 "2016-03-13T04:10:13Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > If that were completely true then women giving up the child for adoption would be on the hook. > > Clearly women are in the driver’s seat because many children are put up for adoption. What the op is discussing is the right for men to legally terminate their parental rights. In effect, putting their responsibility of the child up for adoption. “Women” do not give their children up for adoption. Parents do. If one parent wants to give a kid for adoption and the other doesn’t, the adoption does not happen. Both parent need to sever parental rights in order for it to work. When only one parent severs parental rights, the other parent gets custody and the child is entitled to support. Now there are cases where the other parent is not know and cannot be located, but there isn’t an easy way around that, and most men who don’t keep track of if their partners are having babies aren’t fighting to be single dads. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2016, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-should-have-the-right-to-abort-responsibility-for-an-unborn-child-swedish-political-group-say/748726/49 "2016-03-13T04:15:04Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > “Women” do not give their children up for adoption. Parents do. If one parent wants to give a kid for adoption and the other doesn’t, the adoption does not happen. Both parent need to sever parental rights in order for it to work. When only one parent severs parental rights, the other parent gets custody and the child is entitled to support. > > Now there are cases where the other parent is not know and cannot be located, but there isn’t an easy way around that, and most men who don’t keep track of if their partners are having babies aren’t fighting to be single dads. Can a woman have an abortion against the father’s will? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2016, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-should-have-the-right-to-abort-responsibility-for-an-unborn-child-swedish-political-group-say/748726/50 "2016-03-13T05:15:48Z")
If it ever comes to pass that a man can get pregnant after a genetic contribution from a woman, I support his right to unilaterally abort. ---
**Author:** ![spamforbrains](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@spamforbrains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spamforbrains)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2016, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-should-have-the-right-to-abort-responsibility-for-an-unborn-child-swedish-political-group-say/748726/51 "2016-03-13T05:24:25Z")
> [@](#): > > If it ever comes to pass that a man can get pregnant after a genetic contribution from a woman, I support his right to unilaterally abort. they are now doing uterus transplants. [A First: Uterus Transplant Gives Parents A Healthy Baby : The Two-Way : NPR](http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2014/10/04/353691555/a-first-uterus-transplant-gives-parents-a-healthy-baby) oddly the men don’t seem to want them. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2016, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-should-have-the-right-to-abort-responsibility-for-an-unborn-child-swedish-political-group-say/748726/52 "2016-03-13T06:49:49Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > In the US, if a couple had a signed contract that “any pregnancy would end in abortion unless the woman wanted to raise the kid herself w/o financial support from dad” hold up in court? That is, would the dad be let off child support? > > I assume this sort of thing happens all the time with sperm donors, no? FWIW sperm donors have been ordered to pay child support: > [@](#): > > A Kansas sperm donor caught in the middle of a child support case says he wanted to help a lesbian couple when he made the donation nearly five years ago. > > Instead, he may end up paying for his action. > > A judge ruled that William Marotta must pay child support, even though he says he signed documents waiving his parental rights. > > Shawnee County District Court Judge Mary Mattivi said on Wednesday that Marotta failed to conform to Kansas law, which says a licensed physician must be involved in an artificial insemination process, court documents show. > > SOURCE: [http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/23/justice/kansas-sperm-donation/](http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/23/justice/kansas-sperm-donation/) This would suggest an agreement signed by a couple before sex may not hold up in court. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2016, 8:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-should-have-the-right-to-abort-responsibility-for-an-unborn-child-swedish-political-group-say/748726/53 "2016-03-13T08:39:58Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > This idea is bad social policy on a lot of levels. It’s bad for the kid, it’s bad for the mother, it’s bad for the society, and it’s even bad for the father. There are various asian countries where getting a father to pay child support is basically impossible even thought there are some laws about it. These countries have lower crime rates than the US, faster economic growth and better societal cohesion, eg family and religion are both more important than the US. So it is not true that lack of child support is always bad for society. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2016, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-should-have-the-right-to-abort-responsibility-for-an-unborn-child-swedish-political-group-say/748726/54 "2016-03-13T12:26:39Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > FWIW sperm donors have been ordered to pay child support: > > This would suggest an agreement signed by a couple before sex may not hold up in court. In reality, it likely wouldn’t because child support is owed to the child, not the custodial parent. As it should be. Someone is going to end up paying for the kid, and the parents are almost always a better candidate than the taxpayer. But in fantasy world where we are allowing people to walk away from their kids without consequence, I’m okay with that being worked out before the kid-making event happens. Once you’ve already gotten what you want, I don’t think you get to say “Oh, by the way just letting you know you are on your own after this.” What’s so hard about getting it out there to begin with? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2016, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-should-have-the-right-to-abort-responsibility-for-an-unborn-child-swedish-political-group-say/748726/55 "2016-03-13T13:53:25Z")
> [@BrightSunshine](#): > > When a woman is pregnant, there is no child. By law, men are not responsible for the cost of prenatal care or childbirth. > > Once a child is born, both parties are equally financially responsible in the eye of the law. Either can choose to parent without the other’s consent (in which case child support applies) and it takes both to agree to put the child up for adoption. Still, no one is forced to parent, only to pay. This. Neither men nor women can completely relinquish all responsibility for a child without the other parent’s consent. But a fertilized egg or embryo or early-term fetus is not legally or biologically considered equivalent to a child. The only person who gets to choose whether to terminate a pregnancy before fetal viability is the person who’s pregnant. (And, as **BrightSunshine** points out, that’s the only person who is held responsible for the costs of prenatal care and delivery.) Once a child is born, both parents are equally on the hook for supporting it or consenting to relinquish it to adoptive parents. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2016, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-should-have-the-right-to-abort-responsibility-for-an-unborn-child-swedish-political-group-say/748726/56 "2016-03-13T13:58:46Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > That’s the only truly pro-choice stance. Everybody involved has all available options in terms of whether to become a parent or not. Nobody is forced by the state to do anything. That’s a real pro-choice position. That position overlooks the third person involved, whose choices may ultimately be irreconcilable with those of the parents. Unless we’re willing to give kids the right to sue for back support later and let a court decide whose rights should prevail in a particular case, we’re not being pro-choice, we’re just sloughing the hardship off onto the party least able to fight back. The Kansas case is not really relevant here. State law provided a specific procedure for sperm donation without parental rights, and the parties simply did not follow it. Society does make exceptions to the general rule of parental support in certain cases of assisted reproduction, but those exceptions involve clinical settings and have no applicability to a couple having sex. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2016, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-should-have-the-right-to-abort-responsibility-for-an-unborn-child-swedish-political-group-say/748726/57 "2016-03-13T14:25:30Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > The Kansas case is not really relevant here. State law provided a specific procedure for sperm donation without parental rights, and the parties simply did not follow it. Society does make exceptions to the general rule of parental support in certain cases of assisted reproduction, but those exceptions involve clinical settings and have no applicability to a couple having sex. Seems a case where the letter of the law was followed but not the spirit. Perhaps that is how things have to be but it seems abundantly clear the sperm donor in that case was exactly that and should not be on the hook for child support payments. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2016, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-should-have-the-right-to-abort-responsibility-for-an-unborn-child-swedish-political-group-say/748726/58 "2016-03-13T15:02:17Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > A woman can choose to have sex and choose to become parent, or choose to have an abortion. > > A man who chooses to have sex has no choice whatsoever. If he chooses to become a parent, the woman can terminate the pregnancy regardless. And if he chooses not to become a parent, the woman can refuse to have an abortion regardless. You’ve got the sequence of events mixed up. Parental responsibilities don’t come into effect until a child actually exists. A man has no say in whether a woman’s pregnancy will produce a child, because it’s not his body. Likewise, a man has no responsibility to support a pregnant woman, financially or otherwise. Once a pregnancy **has** produced a child, both parents are equally on the hook for supporting it (or agreeing to let somebody else support it and parent it). > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Perhaps that is how things have to be but it seems abundantly clear the sperm donor in that case was exactly that and should not be on the hook for child support payments. Yes, but apparently all parties involved didn’t take proper care to establish that legally. On the other hand, it appears that that would have been a much more expensive route to take. > [@](#): > > The documents show that the lesbian couple whom Marotta helped conceive a child say they performed the artificial insemination procedure at home. […] > > One of the women gave birth to a daughter in December 2009, according to court documents. > > “I donated genetic material, and that was it for me,” he told CNN affiliate WIBW. > > Or so he thought. That changed when the parents separated and one of the women stopped working because of illness and applied to the state for help, he said. The state contacted Marotta for child support. […] > > But under Kansas law, he is her father. Had a physician carried out the insemination, that would not be the case, because Marotta would be able to document that he was a sperm donor and not the lover of the girl’s mother, CNN senior medical correspondent Elizabeth Cohen said. > > “For all they know, they were lovers,” she said. “They need that documentation. He’s the dad; he ought to be paying up.” > > Though a physician would have tested the sperm for sexually transmitted diseases and certain genetic disorders, there are disincentives associated with going through a physician. > > A single attempt at artificial insemination costs about $3,000, and sometimes several tries are needed. “It’s a lot cheaper to get someone to come on over with their donation, and then do it yourself at home,” Cohen said. Ethically speaking, it seems clear to me that the people who should be responsible for the child are the couple who wanted to have it. It appears that the couple later separated and there’s no legal presumption of parenthood for the non-biological mother, who AFAICT was not married to the biological mother. It should be on both those women to support the kid they chose to have. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2016, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-should-have-the-right-to-abort-responsibility-for-an-unborn-child-swedish-political-group-say/748726/59 "2016-03-13T15:29:48Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > There are various asian countries where getting a father to pay child support is basically impossible even thought there are some laws about it. These countries have lower crime rates than the US, faster economic growth and better societal cohesion, eg family and religion are both more important than the US. So it is not true that lack of child support is always bad for society. Yes, failing to support one’s children is clearly a sign that one considers family important. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2016, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-should-have-the-right-to-abort-responsibility-for-an-unborn-child-swedish-political-group-say/748726/60 "2016-03-13T16:24:16Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > that has nothing to do with the thread. Women have control as to whether they will bear the child and can give it up for adoption. The op is discussing the same right for men. A pregnant man has all the same rights as a pregnant woman. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-should-have-the-right-to-abort-responsibility-for-an-unborn-child-swedish-political-group-say/748726.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-should-have-the-right-to-abort-responsibility-for-an-unborn-child-swedish-political-group-say/748726.md?page=4)