# Men vs women- take NO for a answer? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 26, 2021, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-vs-women-take-no-for-a-answer/933839 "2021-02-26T20:00:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2021, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-vs-women-take-no-for-a-answer/933839/121 "2021-03-01T18:27:45Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > negotiating a sex life in the age of AIDS forced people to adopt a frankness that didn’t exist before. True that; and not only between people about to have sex together. All of a sudden, people were saying “penis” on prime time TV and in mainstream newspapers; which had previously been unheard of. > [@MrDibble](#): > > I don’t know how old you’d have to be, to have been clubbing pre-herpes. Before the existence of herpes is one thing. Before people were worrying about it is a different thing. In the late 1960’s and much of the 1970’s most of us thought that the only things (besides pregnancy) you risked catching were crabs and syphilis, and that both of those were easily curable. > [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Suggests to me that it may be an innate preference. In grizzly bears? ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2021, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-vs-women-take-no-for-a-answer/933839/122 "2021-03-01T18:29:55Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > This time it’s a success and he follows her. > > Suggests to me that it may be an innate preference. Maybe she just wants some privacy. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2021, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-vs-women-take-no-for-a-answer/933839/123 "2021-03-01T18:38:46Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > In grizzly bears? I’m afraid this is TMI, but if a lady’s breath smells like raw salmon and carrion, I probably am not attracted to her anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Strassia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e8c25b/32.png) [@Strassia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strassia)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2021, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-vs-women-take-no-for-a-answer/933839/124 "2021-03-01T19:27:34Z")
Some real life consequences to being influenced by TV shows: Crime dramas effecting what juries expect or believe about evidence > **[7 Ways the CSI Effect is Altering Our Courtrooms (For Better and For Worse)](https://www.rasmussen.edu/degrees/justice-studies/blog/ways-csi-effect-is-altering-our-courtrooms/)** > > What is the CSI effect and how is it changing the legal system? Click to learn the pros and cons. > The [term was coined](http://www.npr.org/2011/02/06/133497696/is-the-csi-effect-influencing-courtrooms) after the long-running television show, CSI: Crime Scene Investigation. The CSI effect is prosecutors’ belief that crime programs are skewing jurors’ courtroom expectations, ultimately making it more difficult to win their cases and convict defendants. Police reality shows effecting the way people view police and criminal justice [https://folios.rmc.edu/psych200imprisonment/](https://folios.rmc.edu/psych200imprisonment/) > In conclusion, these programs not only overrepresentviolent crime, but they also overrepresent the percentage of crimes that are cleared or solved by law enforcement personal. These programs also underrepresent blacks and overrepresent whites as police, in comparison to statistics from the U.S. Department of Labor Statistics. Finally, police enforcement also uses aggressive behavior more than the criminal suspects.These results demonstrate that these stereotypes portrayed on reality-based police shows can heavily influence one’s attitudes and perceptions ---
**Author:** ![mordecaiB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mordecaib/32/7725_2.png) [@mordecaiB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mordecaiB)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2021, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-vs-women-take-no-for-a-answer/933839/125 "2021-03-01T19:42:53Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Before the existence of herpes is one thing. Before people were worrying about it is a different thing. > > In the late 1960’s and much of the 1970’s most of us thought that the only things (besides pregnancy) you risked catching were crabs and syphilis, and that both of those were easily curable. I assumed @MrDibble was joking, but you never know. Yes, I was talking before the push to inform people about herpes. Herpes knowledge was a game changer. Up until that time unprotected sex was fairly common in my circle. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2021, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-vs-women-take-no-for-a-answer/933839/126 "2021-03-01T20:26:23Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Well, that is what is surprising to me. I mean, I know that what I see on TV and in movies is fake. And I shouldn’t try to emulate what I see. I just assumed most people did the same. That’s why I’m asking here. I hear a lot about “people do this” but wanted to know, who, here, on this message board, changed their behavior based on something they saw on TV or in a movie. People don’t radically change their behavior, like becoming gangsters after seeing a Mafia movie. However they may use what they see in TV and film as guidance if they are in a new situation. Like starting to date, or starting to have sex. Not to mention that you get lots of contradictory advice from movies, so people do have to sort it out. The advice might be good, or it might be bad, but it is probably at least as good as you’d get from your friends. Or a book written by a doctor with a German name in Richard Thompson’s “Read about Love.” ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2021, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-vs-women-take-no-for-a-answer/933839/127 "2021-03-01T20:32:59Z")
> [@mordecaiB](#): > > Herpes knowledge was a game changer. Up until that time unprotected sex was fairly common in my circle. I remember AIDS being the issue that caused us to rethink unprotected (other than by the Pill) sex. I don’t remember hearing much about herpes until well after AIDS hit. Might have depended on where you were or who you hung out with. ---
**Author:** ![mordecaiB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mordecaib/32/7725_2.png) [@mordecaiB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mordecaiB)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2021, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-vs-women-take-no-for-a-answer/933839/128 "2021-03-01T20:51:34Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > I remember AIDS being the issue that caused us to rethink unprotected (other than by the Pill) sex. I don’t remember hearing much about herpes until well after AIDS hit Herpes was a 70s thing, AIDS first cases were in 1981 and didn’t become well known until later. To me, herpes was the end of unprotected sex, AIDS added on things like asking about former sex partners and being tested before sex. Just so I can have one post on topic, no means no means no means no. There is no soft no. Just tell the lady thanks, have a nice day/evening and move on. It really doesn’t kill you to have a woman say no. I’ve had it happen dozens, maybe hundreds of times over my pre marriage years. It’s nothing to be embarrassed or ashamed of, it happens to everyone, even women! ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2021, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-vs-women-take-no-for-a-answer/933839/129 "2021-03-01T20:51:45Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > That may be, but I’m asking about actual people here, right now. Did it influence you to change your behavior to emulate what you saw in TV and movies? Less behavior and more expectations, but yes, I’ve been effected by books and movies, and I believe that huge swaths of other people have been effected similarly. It’s a pervasive thing in movies that “the hero gets the girl”. It’s an absurdly common narrative convention that spreads far beyond romances. In fact it’s more blatant in non-romances - a hero goes along his business, doing little or nothing to romance the woman (give or take maybe forcing himself on her once or twice over her vocal protests) and when the movie is over - bam! she loves him. A woman on the arm is, or was, a standard part of the reward for the protagonist. This often even holds if the protagonist is not a particularly noteworthy person in other ways - Be the loser protagonist of a comedy; still get the girl. The message is that women are owed to the the protagonists of stories. If you consider yourself the protagonist of your own life, then you are _owed_ romance. I believe that this line of thinking is the basis of the incel movement, and how it’s able to keep gathering members. Myself I don’t spend enough time online to get swept up by the incels, but I did notice when I was begrudging a woman for not returning my affections. After a point I wondered why I was thinking this way, and self-analysis traced the cause back to pop culture and the promise of the narrative convention: the protagonist male gets the girl. I realized that I wasn’t going to be able to pry all of pop culture out of my head, so I took a different tact - if the protagonist gets the girl, I merely had to internalize the fact that I am not a protagonist in my life. It was a little rough pulling that off, but it worked - I am now a better person. No thanks to pop culture. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2021, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-vs-women-take-no-for-a-answer/933839/130 "2021-03-01T21:06:26Z")
> [@mordecaiB](#): > > Herpes was a 70s thing, AIDS first cases were in 1981 and didn’t become well known until later. To me, herpes was the end of unprotected sex, Hmmm. A bit of research seems to back your timeline and not mine, and bring up articles saying there was a big fuss over herpes in the 70’s. Maybe it was the particular people I hung out with. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2021, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-vs-women-take-no-for-a-answer/933839/131 "2021-03-01T21:41:33Z")
> [@mordecaiB](#): > > Just so I can have one post on topic, no means no means no means no. There is no soft no You mean if she says "_Not this Saturday, I am …"_ that’s not a soft no? You shouldnt ask if there is another date she prefers? That’s it, just walk away? ---
**Author:** ![Strassia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e8c25b/32.png) [@Strassia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strassia)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2021, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-vs-women-take-no-for-a-answer/933839/132 "2021-03-01T21:52:36Z")
“Not this Saturday, how about next week?” or “Not this Saturday, but I will be back in town in two weeks, call me then.” are not soft nos. They are yes for a different date. “Not this Saturday, maybe some other time.” is often a risk management strategy. Like lying about being involved with someone, it is a way to reject someone without rejecting them. Because sometimes it is dangerous to reject some offers outright. If you ask out anyone, and they defer but offer a vague future possibility, just put it on them. “Well let me know if you are available!” If that fails some kind of test, then as said by other up thread, then you probably shouldn’t go out with them anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2021, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-vs-women-take-no-for-a-answer/933839/133 "2021-03-01T21:58:06Z")
Can’t remember where it came from, but I recall hearing about a guy, who, rather than asking for a lady’s number, gave her his number. Ball squarely in her court. ---
**Author:** ![mordecaiB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mordecaib/32/7725_2.png) [@mordecaiB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mordecaiB)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2021, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-vs-women-take-no-for-a-answer/933839/134 "2021-03-01T22:25:37Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > You mean if she says " _Not this Saturday, I am …"_ that’s not a soft no? You shouldnt ask if there is another date she prefers? That’s it, just walk away? @Strassia explains it better but, correct, this is a no. Asking her if she prefers another day is just making her say no again. If she wants to see you another time she will say so. Again. everyone gets told no, it’s not a stain on your personal honor. She just said no. Move on. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2021, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-vs-women-take-no-for-a-answer/933839/135 "2021-03-01T22:47:19Z")
I think it would depend on what she claims to be doing. If she’s like, “No; I’ll be out of town on a business trip,” that’s a little different than “No, I have to wash my cat.” The first would elicit a “Oh, okay, if you’re free sometime feel free to get in touch,” and the second would get a “Okay, well, remember to use the gentle detergent and hang dry.” ---
**Author:** ![mordecaiB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mordecaib/32/7725_2.png) [@mordecaiB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mordecaiB)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2021, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-vs-women-take-no-for-a-answer/933839/136 "2021-03-01T22:51:10Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > “No, I have to wash my cat.” Except nobody actually says something like that, except in the movies so BANG! another case of movies being different from real life. Right back to the opening post in one! Good work, @begbert2 ! I think I get an assist on this one. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2021, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-vs-women-take-no-for-a-answer/933839/137 "2021-03-01T22:55:54Z")
Right, but the presumption you’re making is the woman can’t possibly have a legitimate reason for saying “no” that isn’t “I’d rather kiss a porcupine’s butt than spend another minute with you.” Myself, if the woman says she’s busy, I’d take that to mean she’s busy. Once. The second time it happens, be it in two minutes or two weeks, I’m out. The reasonable presumption is that I’m a distant second to porcupine butt. If I’m wrong about the woman’s desires it’s now her job to do something about it if she so desires. ---
**Author:** ![eschrodinger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschrodinger/32/122_2.png) [@eschrodinger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschrodinger)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2021, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-vs-women-take-no-for-a-answer/933839/138 "2021-03-01T22:57:35Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > So it’s not as easy as saying _“My default position is to not be influenced. Isn’t that yours?”_ Yes, another example, which has been researched fairly well is depictions of smoking in tv and movies. I grew up with lots of smoking being shown in entertainment, and I don’t know if I will ever shake the back-of-the-head feeling that it’s _cool_, which was strongly influenced by media. Depictions of smoking became very limited for a time, when attitudes were changing. Then, there was an uptick in depictions, and an uptick in young people starting smoking. According to this paper, ([Warning pdf download!](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/56355382.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiH2u6Jk5DvAhWpJDQIHetYAp8QFjADegQIFhAC&usg=AOvVaw2a4ECHPtwUAzE_KzZ-CVsI)) > [@](#): > > However, researchers have also discovered that watching Hollywood actors > light up in movies significantly affects adolescent smoking behavior. The most > convincing studies have been conducted by Madeline Dalton of Dartmouth > University. 13 After controlling for all other factors known to influence smoking, > Dr. Dalton found a three-fold increase in smoking initiation among children ages > 10-14 who viewed the greatest number of smoking depictions in movies. 14 > Accordingly, her studies suggest that a decline in youth exposure to smoking in > movies could significantly reduce teen smoking. Another study I recall, for which I don’t have a cite handy showed that, although the portion of adults who smoke was about 18%, young people grossly overestimated that number, based on depictions in entertainment. If we are metaphorical fish, movies and TV are metaphorically part of our water. We know the plot, etc. is fictional, but it still reinforces ideas of how the world works, what is commonplace, what is weird, what goes unsaid, etc. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2021, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-vs-women-take-no-for-a-answer/933839/139 "2021-03-01T22:58:34Z")
> [@mordecaiB](#): > > @Strassia explains it better but, correct, this is a no. Asking her if she prefers another day is just making her say no again. If she wants to see you another time she will say so. Again. everyone gets told no, it’s not a stain on your personal honor. Well, I hope this message gets out to all the women out there. Because every woman I have every seriously dated gave me what I am saying is a soft no. No one is saying this is a stain on your honor. It is just giving her a chance for another day if Saturday is bad. So, if her Saturday just happens to be booked up, forget it, you two arent getting together? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2021, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-vs-women-take-no-for-a-answer/933839/140 "2021-03-01T23:00:02Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Once. > > The second time it happens, be it in two minutes or two weeks, I’m out. Right. If she doesnt come back with a suggestion or something by then, then it is a hard no that she just doesnt know how to say. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-vs-women-take-no-for-a-answer/933839.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-vs-women-take-no-for-a-answer/933839.md?page=8)