# Men, what \*would\* be a fair solution for unwanted child support? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 4, 2013, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-what-would-be-a-fair-solution-for-unwanted-child-support/657480 "2013-05-04T09:19:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Roland\_Orzabal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c2a13f/32.png) [@Roland\_Orzabal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roland_Orzabal)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-what-would-be-a-fair-solution-for-unwanted-child-support/657480/201 "2013-05-07T16:03:45Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > The choice was made prior to inserting sperm into a fertile woman. How do you justify absolving yourself of the obvious potential consequences of that choice? I don’t. With respect, I think you misunderstood my post. ETA, to clarify: [QUOTE=Roland Orzabal] And finally, as a topically relevant example, if a woman is pregnant and does not elect to undergo abortion, the moral ramifications\* are the same as if the option had never existed in the first place. If conception required an action on the woman’s part separate from the sex act itself, then the “it’s her choice” argument would hold. But the bottom line in my view is that women, like anyone else, aren’t responsible for the choices they don’t make — only the ones they do. [/QUOTE] I wasn’t talking about the the choice to have sex, or any choices prior; only about the argument that the existence of abortion constitutes a choice on the woman’s part to have a baby after conception. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-what-would-be-a-fair-solution-for-unwanted-child-support/657480/202 "2013-05-07T16:05:45Z")
> [@Roland\_Orzabal](#): > > I don’t. With respect, I think you misunderstood my post. I did, my apologies. ---
**Author:** ![Amara\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7993a0/32.png) [@Amara\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amara_1)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-what-would-be-a-fair-solution-for-unwanted-child-support/657480/203 "2013-05-07T16:10:16Z")
There’s been a lot of focus on the actions of women in this thread. The guys who don’t want children now, can you state what steps you are taking to prevent pregnancy (condoms, vasectomy etc)? ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-what-would-be-a-fair-solution-for-unwanted-child-support/657480/204 "2013-05-07T16:22:49Z")
> [@Roland\_Orzabal](#): > > I wasn’t talking about the the choice to have sex, or any choices prior; only about the argument that the existence of abortion constitutes a choice on the woman’s part to have a baby after conception. Well, obviously. Only women can get pregnant, and abortions would be quite redundant on men, wouldn’t they? But if men could also become pregnant, would that in any way change whether or not the reluctant party could shirk responsibility or force a medical procedure on the body of another? ---
**Author:** ![Roland\_Orzabal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c2a13f/32.png) [@Roland\_Orzabal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roland_Orzabal)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-what-would-be-a-fair-solution-for-unwanted-child-support/657480/205 "2013-05-07T16:27:55Z")
> [@Amara\_1](#): > > There’s been a lot of focus on the actions of women in this thread. The guys who don’t want children now, can you state what steps you are taking to prevent pregnancy (condoms, vasectomy etc)? In fairness, the focus on the actions of women is due to the fact that women have actions available to them that can absolve them of certain consequences for their prior choice, whereas men don’t. The steps men take to prevent pregnancy are relevant only insofar as they do or don’t accomplish that. Do you believe that there are any preventive action(s) men might take that should relieve them of legal responsibility for an unplanned pregnancy? (Not saying that I _do_, just pointing out that the question isn’t really relevant unless you do.) > [@Troppus](#): > > Well, obviously. Only women can get pregnant, and abortions would be quite redundant on men, wouldn’t they? But if men could also become pregnant, would that in any way change whether or not the reluctant party could shirk responsibility or force a medical procedure on the body of another? Of course not. What did I post that made you think I believe otherwise? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Molesworth\_2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9dc877/32.png) [@Molesworth\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Molesworth_2)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-what-would-be-a-fair-solution-for-unwanted-child-support/657480/206 "2013-05-07T16:33:34Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > He had a vasectomy the following week because he didn’t want to be put in a position to make that decision again. I elected to remain fertile and had one more planned pregnancy later on. See how he took full responsibility for his reproductive heatlh? See how I did the same? He continues to be happy and child-free in a relationship, and I have a child with a husband who also wanted children. Any more personal questions? No, I’m thinking that’s enough personal questions for now. See how he gave up any chance of ever becoming a parent for you? See how you weren’t ever requested to do the same thing? I’m happy for you that you’re happy for your former lover that he’s living in a child-free relationship. Although that seems like it was always kind of inevitable after you’d encouraged him to have a vasectomy… I’m also happy for you that you “remained fertile” and went on to have a child with a later partner. You go, girl! ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-what-would-be-a-fair-solution-for-unwanted-child-support/657480/207 "2013-05-07T16:38:22Z")
He’s a lurker here, and I hope he’ll post. I did not encourage him to have that procedure, as I wanted children and would like to have raised a child with him. He was very clear about remaining childfree for the rest of his life. See how that works? He made a decision to seek permanent sterilization that made me sad, but his body, his choice. ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-what-would-be-a-fair-solution-for-unwanted-child-support/657480/208 "2013-05-07T16:39:03Z")
Roland, people are accountable for acts or ommissions. Make no change is absolutely a choice. Troppus, one can hardly be said to have chosen to put semen into someone if contraception fails. I notice that pro choicers are careful to avoid stating the real issue, which I believe to be reproductive self determination (when we test pregnant women for drugs or HIV no one complains about their privacy) A woman with an unplanned pregnancy has options, a man is shit out of luck, there may not be a truly equitable solution, certainly it won’t be identical, but it’s silly to claim the problem doesn’t exist ---
**Author:** ![Roland\_Orzabal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c2a13f/32.png) [@Roland\_Orzabal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roland_Orzabal)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-what-would-be-a-fair-solution-for-unwanted-child-support/657480/209 "2013-05-07T16:42:17Z")
> [@outlierrn](#): > > Roland, people are accountable for acts or ommissions. Make no change is absolutely a choice. “Choice” by the dictionary definition and “accountable” by the social one, yes. Morally speaking, no. If you’re morally culpable for everything you could do but don’t, you’ve got a lot of blood on your hands, literally and figuratively. ---
**Author:** ![Amara\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7993a0/32.png) [@Amara\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amara_1)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-what-would-be-a-fair-solution-for-unwanted-child-support/657480/210 "2013-05-07T16:47:36Z")
> [@Roland\_Orzabal](#): > > In fairness, the focus on the actions of women is due to the fact that women have actions available to them that can absolve them of certain consequences for their prior choice, whereas men don’t. The steps men take to prevent pregnancy are relevant only insofar as they do or don’t accomplish that. Do you believe that there are any preventive action(s) men might take that should relieve them of legal responsibility for an unplanned pregnancy? (Not saying that I _do_, just pointing out that the question isn’t really relevant unless you do.) I’m not getting the same reading from the thread. I’d think that both partners, if they wanted to avoid pregnancy, would take responsibility for birth control. I see women saying that they take birth control but the men have been oddly silent. I’m getting the impression that some of the guys are saying that male birth control options are limited (which they are but they are for women as well) and then arguing that it’s not their problem. I’m not seeing a lot of men in this thread state that they always use condoms or have had that talk with their partner. IOW, several of the guys don’t seem focused on the preventative measures that they could take but on post-conception methods that they want women to take. I’m not sure if that reading is correct or not so I’m asking the question. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-what-would-be-a-fair-solution-for-unwanted-child-support/657480/211 "2013-05-07T16:49:21Z")
> [@outlierrn](#): > > Troppus, one can hardly be said to have chosen to put semen into someone if contraception fails. Of course he has. He has the right to sue the maker or user of said contraception, but as most failures can be attributed to user error he’d be laughed right out of court. Sex with a fertile partner is an assumed risk. Every. Single. Time. > [@outlierrn](#): > > A woman with an unplanned pregnancy has options, a man is shit out of luck, there may not be a truly equitable solution, certainly it won’t be identical, but it’s silly to claim the problem doesn’t exist It isn’t a problem with analogus legal rights and responsibilities. You plow into a crowd after purchasing a car with bad breaks, you are held responsible for the damage. Your loaded, unsecured gun causes harm, you are held responsible. Attractive nuisance in your hard causes harm: you are responsible. Victims of those accidents are free to sue, to allow the legal system to exact punishment, or may forgive and seek no reparations whatsover. No negligent driver, gun owner, or home owner expresses surprise if they are sued for damages they are responsible for. Likewise, there is no question that we are legally, morally, and ethically responsible for children we willingly or accidently create, and that responsibility begins with sex. Except in cases of rape, we cannot claim ignorance. We can take someone’s word that they are sterile or using protection, but that would be foolish, wouldn’t it? We take more care to inspect a used car before we purchase. What is it specifically about sex that is causing some men to cry foul when each admits to being fully responsible for negligence in all other cases of personal responsibility? ---
**Author:** ![randomface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/5fc32e/32.png) [@randomface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/randomface)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-what-would-be-a-fair-solution-for-unwanted-child-support/657480/212 "2013-05-07T17:06:41Z")
The reason it’s such a big issue for men is that there are very limited protections for us in the law. If I willingly have unprotected sex with my SO, have sex using my own protection and it fails, she knowingly and purposefully sabotages my protection (or lies about her own), a woman rapes me, or even in some states if my SO has unprotected sex with another man and gets pregnant; I am completely at the mercy of her choice with the force of the state to back it up. There is no option short of complete sterilization that will protect me and I shouldn’t have to forever destroy my ability to procreate in order to have some sort of protection. I am not willing to go all Der Trihs and treat all women like they are untrustworthy to the point where I videotape everything, keep my own protection under lock and key, and immediately dispose of it afterwards in a secure area in order to provide myself some measure of safety in consensual sexual encounters. Even if I did, that still wouldn’t protect me from rape with a side of institutional injustice, or in case of being married, from being legally on the hook for any children born during the marriage (only applicable in some states). ---
**Author:** ![DiosaBellissima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@DiosaBellissima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiosaBellissima)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-what-would-be-a-fair-solution-for-unwanted-child-support/657480/213 "2013-05-07T17:07:15Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > Sex with a fertile partner is an assumed risk. Every. Single. Time. It’s crazy to me that other people _don’t_ approach sex this way. I always figure I am actively working against my biology, where the default is _MAKE BABY_. ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-what-would-be-a-fair-solution-for-unwanted-child-support/657480/214 "2013-05-07T17:07:32Z")
So men and women should have the same options in pregnancy that they have in all your examples? Kinda the point. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-what-would-be-a-fair-solution-for-unwanted-child-support/657480/215 "2013-05-07T17:23:35Z")
> [@randomface](#): > > There is no option short of complete sterilization that will protect me and I shouldn’t have to forever destroy my ability to procreate in order to have some sort of protection. Well, that’s a problem that we share. Women must also choose sterilization for a foolproof birth control method. It sounds like your complaint is about the lack of birth control options for men, because you seem aware that once an unplanned pregnancy has occurred, it is too late to demand action that favors your wants and needs over that of the potential child and mother. With regards to typical, non-coerced sex, the problem is that some of you want to secure a legally binding hold harmless clause. You can certainly try it, not sure how many willing partners you’ll get or how it will stand in a court of law, but the fact remains that sex is an assumed risk and you know this going in. And some of you continue to derail what could be a productive discussion by offering up rare occurences of rape or sabotage, each of which can and will be addressed in a court of law. Any person can sue another for fraud, negligence, or rape. You can practice recreational outrage all you like over stolen sperm and hijacked condoms, but until or unless you are in a position to write law, it’s just bluster and a distraction from typical custody/child support scenarios. > [@DiosaBellissima](#): > > It’s crazy to me that other people _don’t_ approach sex this way. I always figure I am actively working against my biology, where the default is _MAKE BABY_. That was my earlier point exactly. It makes no difference that some of us older, educated, cautious and sophistocated adults pursue sex for all its terrific benefits sans pregnancy, but the same cannot be said for teenagers, the willfully or woefully ignorant, couples under the influence of drugs and/or alcohol… the fact is that the urge to rub heated up genitals together is there in order to facilitate fertilization. We know what sex is \*for \*before we are old enough to seek it out, and with the exception of rape, there isn’t a single excuse that absolves either willing party of responsibility if (gasp) pregnancy occurs because sperm and egg were introduced. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-what-would-be-a-fair-solution-for-unwanted-child-support/657480/216 "2013-05-07T17:27:51Z")
> [@outlierrn](#): > > So men and women should have the same options in pregnancy that they have in all your examples? Kinda the point. The same birth control options, yes. But I have to say, I wouldn’t trust another person to take oral contraceptives properly and I’d take measures to protect myself even if my male partner swore he took the pill as directed. But abortion isn’t birth control. It’s often a painful, unpleasant, expensive surgical end to an unwanted pregnancy that can come with complications and many, many people who get a kick out of sex still have heavy moral and religious objections to abortion. That’s no secret. It’s not a quick fix, and you are doing a disservice to this discussion by implying that abortion is equal to birth control options. ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-what-would-be-a-fair-solution-for-unwanted-child-support/657480/217 "2013-05-07T17:42:22Z")
I made no such implication. ---
**Author:** ![Idle\_Thoughts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@Idle\_Thoughts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Idle_Thoughts)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2013, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-what-would-be-a-fair-solution-for-unwanted-child-support/657480/218 "2013-05-07T23:33:19Z")
> [@Saraya](#): > > Talk about having him whipped. This is out of line for this forum and is a warning for you. Don’t post like this again in this forum as it falls under the category of being a jerk. ---
**Author:** ![EverwonderWhy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee59a6/32.png) [@EverwonderWhy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EverwonderWhy)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-what-would-be-a-fair-solution-for-unwanted-child-support/657480/219 "2013-05-09T20:39:59Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > I’m using the biological imperative as a reminder that mixing of gametes can result in procreation, and that intentions are worthless once a zygote is formed. I don’t think anyone is disputing the biology behind the formation of zygotes, but I suggest you examine your own understanding of biology before you condescend to other people about theirs. I’d rather not use the ‘biological imperative’ as the foundation of social policy (which is really what child support is - social policy), unless you are advocating rolling back society thousands of years or want to live in a culture akin to the tribal societies of Sub-Saharan Africa. I’m glad I don’t live in a society where my survival depends on securing a man to protect me from being raped by other men, who are just seeking to fulfill their biological imperative, after all :rolleyes: > [@Troppus](#): > > I’ll be happy to provide a list and a biology lesson for those unfamiliar. Um yeah, I don’t think you are qualified to be providing any biology lessons. > [@Troppus](#): > > Abstain or use birth control. Condoms not comfy, snip it. Never have to worry over paying support again. What exactly is your problem with these simple and foolproof solutions? > [@Troppus](#): > > You are the only one who can control your reproductive potential and where your dick goes. > [@Troppus](#): > > The choice was made prior to inserting sperm into a fertile woman. How do you justify absolving yourself of the obvious potential consequences of that choice? > [@Troppus](#): > > Sex with a fertile partner is an assumed risk. Every. Single. Time. This type of rhetoric is just as off-putting and alienating as when it comes from the anti-choice crowd. It’s pretty much the misandrist version of ‘just keep your legs closed!’ You can frame the argument for child support without going there. > [@Troppus](#): > > \ > … the fact is that the urge to rub heated up genitals together is there in order to facilitate fertilization. We know what sex is \*for \*before we are old enough to seek it out, and with the exception of rape, there isn’t a single excuse that absolves either willing party of responsibility if (gasp) pregnancy occurs because sperm and egg were introduced And here we go again, please speak for yourself. You are not qualified to speak for the ‘we’ and what other’s ‘know what sex is for’. No one is disputing where babies come from, so yammering on like a fundy about how ‘sex can’t be separated from procreation’ is not very compelling. In case you haven’t been paying attention lately, the ‘primary procreative purpose of sex’ nonsense you insistently keep touting has been behind the numerous legislative attempts seeking to exclude contraceptives from health insurance coverage, because health insurance shouldn’t cover recreational sex or sex without intending to procreate is somehow immoral. It’s a bad argument, stop it. Or are the rad-fems really partnering with social conservatives now? **Troppus** , your rad-fem rhetoric is just as damaging to gender equity as the rhetoric spewed by the MRAs. I consider myself a ([sex-positive](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex-positive_feminism)) feminist because I advocate for gender equity in society, not because I want to denigrate and blame men for issues caused by a patriarchal society that harms _both men and women_. Men and women’s reproductive capabilities are _different_ and this can be unfair, acknowledging that doesn’t mean 100% absolving men of child support obligations. [http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/06/25/i-think-youre-confused-as-to-the-meaning-of-child-support/#comment-247530](http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/06/25/i-think-youre-confused-as-to-the-meaning-of-child-support/#comment-247530) > [@](#): > > Is it unfair that once pregnancy occurs, a man does not have the right or ability to end it? I guess, in the same way that it’s unfair that women have to carry a pregnancy for nine months, or undergo an invasive surgical procedure to end it. That sucks. It’s not “fair.” But by virtue of having to bear that burden for nearly ten months after intercourse, women also have reproductive rights that are different from men’s. Those rights extend through pregnancy. Seriously, I think women having to undergo pregnancy and childbirth is unfair even for intended/wanted children. > [@](#): > > It is unfair that men sometimes have to pay for the support of children they don’t want to parent, but it’s less unfair than either a) giving the man the casting vote in determining what happens to the woman’s body, or b) depriving the child of support. And those are really the only alternatives to the conflict, at least as things stand. This is pretty much my take. I wish there were more options, but child support is the imperfect solution and lesser evil of what is available. Also, if you care to read the full piece on feministe that I quoted above (and the excellent commentary, IMO), at the very bottom of the article there’s a link to [On Baby Emma](http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2010/04/27/on-baby-emma/) (excellent commentary following, as well), which discusses the horrible state of the adoption system in Utah. I find it ironic (and depressing, quite frankly) that the discussion and commentary about child support and fathers’ rights is more open and honest on feministe than it is here on the SDMB. ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-what-would-be-a-fair-solution-for-unwanted-child-support/657480/220 "2013-05-09T22:31:36Z")
> [@EverwonderWhy](#): > > This type of rhetoric is just as off-putting and alienating as when it comes from the anti-choice crowd. It’s pretty much the misandrist version of ‘just keep your legs closed!’ You can frame the argument for child support without going there. Well, _I’ve_ certainly been around long enough to remember when women started clammoring for reproductive self determination and were told ‘you already have it, keep your knees together.’ BTW, a quick scan of the covers of the magazines in the women’s interest section at Barnes and Noble will certainly give the impression that good sex \*is \*something you’re entitled to. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-what-would-be-a-fair-solution-for-unwanted-child-support/657480.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-what-would-be-a-fair-solution-for-unwanted-child-support/657480.md?page=12)