# Men, what \*would\* be a fair solution for unwanted child support? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 4, 2013, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-what-would-be-a-fair-solution-for-unwanted-child-support/657480 "2013-05-04T09:19:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2013, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-what-would-be-a-fair-solution-for-unwanted-child-support/657480/261 "2013-05-10T17:49:35Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > As social animals, we care for and provide for the needs of our young as well as other weaker members of society. Denying support to Joseph punishes an innocent victim who is just as deserving of support as Schwarzenegger’s legitimate children. The kid didn’t ask to be born of two willing parties who consented to a sexual relationship. It’s not the kid’s fault they weren’t more careful. I severely disagree that he is as deserving of support as the legitimate children. You know, the ones that both their parents agreed to conceive, nurture, raise in the framework of an established legal relationship. No one is guaranteed a perfect life and children are born to poor people or in poor circumstances all the time. Awarding him money because his mother didn’t have the foresight, discipline, or common sense to secure a partner in her child experiment only feeds into the entitlement complex too many bratty children have today. He should be told to suck it and play the cards he was dealt, not try to steal from someone else. ---
**Author:** ![DiosaBellissima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@DiosaBellissima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiosaBellissima)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2013, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-what-would-be-a-fair-solution-for-unwanted-child-support/657480/262 "2013-05-10T17:50:24Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > It’s not the kid’s fault they weren’t more careful. Particularly since, supposedly, Arnold and the maid purposefully skipped the condom. They made the choice. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2013, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-what-would-be-a-fair-solution-for-unwanted-child-support/657480/263 "2013-05-10T17:59:42Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > No one is guaranteed a perfect life and children are born to poor people or in poor circumstances all the time. Awarding him money because his mother didn’t have the foresight, discipline, or common sense to secure a partner in her child experiment only feeds into the entitlement complex too many bratty children have today. He should be told to suck it and play the cards he was dealt, not try to steal from someone else. Kid wasn’t conceived in a test tube and we have child support laws because we aren’t about to reward careless behavior by dumping unplanned kids in institutions, so…you’ll have to indulge your sci-fi fantasies by reading about it. Making it easier for parents to abandon unwanted kids would have exactly the opposite effect of zero population growth. ---
**Author:** ![Blackberry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecd19e/32.png) [@Blackberry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackberry)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2013, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-what-would-be-a-fair-solution-for-unwanted-child-support/657480/264 "2013-05-10T18:02:20Z")
> [@Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](#): > > When they say “But court, I am not the child’s father! Take some of my \*\*spirit \*\*to test for DNA to see that I am not!” I know you meant “spit” but that cracked me up. On another note, I actually know two idiot women who believe that their boyfriends are being forced to pay child support to women for children that aren’t theirs. DNA tests WERE done, but the women and their boyfriends believe the state lied about the results. Some people are going to think they’re being screwed over for child support no matter what. ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2013, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-what-would-be-a-fair-solution-for-unwanted-child-support/657480/265 "2013-05-10T19:13:38Z")
> [@colander](#): > > Well, if it increases self-determination for half of all players and leaves the other half’s ability for self-determination the same as it was… why is that a problem? I mean, the only people who this change specifically disfavors are… men who didn’t want their fetus aborted but whose mother didn’t want to give birth to it? I mean, surely we can agree that abortion laws or no abortion laws, that’s not going to turn out well for anybody involved no matter who gets their way. I didn’t say it was a problem, I said I was for it. The point is that if reproductive self determination is such a great thing, and it is, why can’t call it that and work on if for everyone? And no, ‘you already have that, just keep a crease in it,’ is not good enough. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2013, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-what-would-be-a-fair-solution-for-unwanted-child-support/657480/266 "2013-05-11T04:24:10Z")
I think I’ve reconsidered my position. If it’s not fair to men that women can choose to have an abortion and they can’t, I guess the fair thing is to not allow women to have abortions either. Of course, that doesn’t really keep men from paying from child support, but hey, at least us women no longer have an after the fact choice they don’t. Problem solved. ---
**Author:** ![thirdname](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d07c76/32.png) [@thirdname](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thirdname)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2013, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-what-would-be-a-fair-solution-for-unwanted-child-support/657480/267 "2013-05-11T04:55:04Z")
> [@Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](#): > > But how are they being conveniently selected? Curious minds want to know. Is the convenient part that they look like the child? Live near where the child lives? Share a name? Is there a Hunger Games type financial reaping where their names are all being put in a big glass bowl? > > When they say “But court, I am not the child’s father! Take some of my spirit to test for DNA to see that I am not!” What does the court say? “Too bad, we are here to take money from _a man_ to give to \*a woman \*and you are being selected. We don’t care if the child is \*being supported \*so just pony up that money ($380 on average, livin like royalty these ladies are!) so we can pass it out.” > > I just want to understand. This article explains it pretty well although it’s 9 years old and I don’t know if things have changed since then. If you’re named as a father, you are sent a notice. You have 30 days to contest it. If you don’t, regardless of the reason, you are on the hook until the kid is 18. Even if it’s sent to the wrong address or you’re out of the country, and even if you can prove it isn’t your kid and you’ve never met the mother. > **[Injustice by Default](https://reason.com/2004/02/01/injustice-by-default-2/)** > > How the effort to catch "deadbeat dads" ruins innocent men's lives ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2013, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-what-would-be-a-fair-solution-for-unwanted-child-support/657480/268 "2013-05-11T05:15:04Z")
> [@Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](#): > > But how are they being conveniently selected? Curious minds want to know. Is the convenient part that they look like the child? Live near where the child lives? Share a name? Is there a Hunger Games type financial reaping where their names are all being put in a big glass bowl? > > When they say “But court, I am not the child’s father! Take some of my spirit to test for DNA to see that I am not!” What does the court say? “Too bad, we are here to take money from _a man_ to give to \*a woman \*and you are being selected. We don’t care if the child is \*being supported \*so just pony up that money ($380 on average, livin like royalty these ladies are!) so we can pass it out.” As said, the woman just says it’s his. The courts don’t care if it’s true or not. > [@doreen](#): > > I suspect that Der Trihs is talking about is the not very common case of a man who at the time of divorce comes to the correct conclusion (I’m sure lots more men suddenly decide their wife was cheating and turn out to be wrong ) that he is not the father of child he has been raising for the past three , five or ten years- and is willing to give up all contact with this child if it means he doesn’t pay support. You assume that he has a choice in giving up contact, as opposed to being forced to pay for children he never sees, who are not actually related to him, who never see any of the money he sends, and who are raised to hate him. And quite possibly he’s being forced to deprive his actual children of support in order to hand money to the woman in charge of these hostile strangers. ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2013, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-what-would-be-a-fair-solution-for-unwanted-child-support/657480/269 "2013-05-11T07:54:47Z")
A poster gave me some snark upthread, suggesting I was just bragging in my OP. I looked up [some more data](http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0193123.html). The big difference seems to be the number of women on birth control, especially on the pill. IN the US, birth contol (in 1995) was 76 %, as it was in Germany, 74% . (no Dutch numbers on that site, but the Germans are similiar in this regard to the Dutch) The big difference is the _kind_ of birth control. In the US, 15% of women are on the pill, but that number is 3 times as high, 58% in Germany. Condom use is 13% in the US, 4 in Germany. The pill has a much higher success rate then the condom or other forms of birth control. Pill use also is much more under control of the woman. If the pill is freely available through government health programs, as it is in the Netherlands, that apparently has a huge impact on the number of unwanted births. I repeat from my OP: the Dutch have an average age of first sex that is very comparable to the US (both 18 years old) but it results in a far, far, lower rate of teenage pregnancies. Average 7 promille in the Netherlands, 55 promille in the US. Our abortion rate, is also low: 4 promille against the US 30 promille. So it appears the main difference, and the proven solution against both abortions and all this paternity trouble is not abstinence. Abstinence, be it the rad-fem kind or the rep-fundie kind, is completely counterproductive and a great source of misery. Advocating it is, sorry I have to state this plainly, evil. The proven solution is to make the pill easily available to women who start out dating and have not yet settled down with a partner. Yet [this article](http://www.thenation.com/article/162323/birth-control-yesterday-today-and-tomorrow) states that there is a anti pill bias in the US. Sigh. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2013, 8:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-what-would-be-a-fair-solution-for-unwanted-child-support/657480/270 "2013-05-11T08:31:37Z")
Oh, is that what women need to do in order to ensure that men have access to worry free, responsibility free sex? Ingest a daily dose of hormones which come with a host of unpleasant and in some cases life threatening side effects, long term risks, and expense? \*\*Maastricht \*\*, after pages of posters laying blame and responsibility on women for having the audacity to get pregnant and shaming them for failing to consent to abortion on demand, you’ve just blamed women for causing men to deal with unwanted pregnancies by implying that if only women would take full responsibility for using contraception which comes with nasty side effects, men could enjoy sex. A woman’s only “duty” during consensual sex is to take whatever precautions she feels necessary to protect her own health and self interest. Same goes for the man’s role and responsibility.Each partner in a consensual sexual relationship should be equally responsible for preventing unwanted pregnancy, up to and including practicing whatever method of contraception each feels comfortable with. ---
**Author:** ![Septima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@Septima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Septima)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2013, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-what-would-be-a-fair-solution-for-unwanted-child-support/657480/271 "2013-05-11T10:01:08Z")
Oh for crying out loud, yes! Get on the damn pill! And quit whining so much. It does not, in the vast majority of women, have any side effects whatsoever, except to make menstruation absent or pain-free (go pill!) And most women who do get side effects of the unpleasant kind need to switch brands, not go off the pill. If you have regular partner, make him pay half, same as with condoms and emergency BC. If you are hooking up, chalk it up to TANSTAAFL (but make him pay for the condoms you are of course using anyway, if you want to split hairs. I’d prefer my own pack, but that’s just me). If you can’t afford the pill, but want to partake in hook-up culture anyway, you need to budget or switch to non-PIV hookups. And vote for sensible people who will support making the pill free or subsidized, especially for women under 25, a perfectly simple measure which cut unwanted pregnancy down by about 1/4 in one fell swoop. -responsible woman who’s been happily on the pill for 10 years, and has never had an unwanted pregnancy. Funny how that works. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2013, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-what-would-be-a-fair-solution-for-unwanted-child-support/657480/272 "2013-05-11T12:53:18Z")
I’d like a cite for the pill having no unpleasant side effects for the vast majority of women, as well as one showing your credentials to neatly remove the responsibility for birth control from men and dumping it entirely in the laps of women. Way to dial back progress another 30 years, Septima, you’re a shining beacon for equality and responsible sex. ---
**Author:** ![Ibanez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a4c791/32.png) [@Ibanez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibanez)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2013, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-what-would-be-a-fair-solution-for-unwanted-child-support/657480/273 "2013-05-11T13:54:04Z")
[Men have an equal responsibility?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRdq2zqGxgY) ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2013, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-what-would-be-a-fair-solution-for-unwanted-child-support/657480/274 "2013-05-11T14:23:08Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > I’d like a cite for the pill having no unpleasant side effects for the vast majority of women… Here you go. > [@](#): > > A sweeping new Danish study concludes that hormonal contraception increases the risk of heart attack and stroke, but the overall risk for individual women is very low. > “The amount of attention paid to these minuscule risks, and what are likely to be very small differences in vascular risk, detracts attention from more salient issues, like preventing unwanted pregnancy,” argued Dr. Diana B. Petitti, a professor of biomedical informatics at Arizona State University Makes sense to me, if in the US [40 % of pregnancies is unplanned or mistimed](http://phys.org/news/2011-05-unplanned-pregnancies-percent.html), to place a higher value on that preventing that very real risk, instead of keep hammering on the increased risk by taking the pill, which brings the base risk of 1 in 10.000 up to a whopping 4 in 10.000. ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2013, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-what-would-be-a-fair-solution-for-unwanted-child-support/657480/275 "2013-05-11T14:32:57Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > I’d like a cite for the pill having no unpleasant side effects for the vast majority of women… And [here’s a cite](http://womenshealth.about.com/od/thepill/f/pillsideeffects.htm) for the unpleasant health side effects being, in most women, small and temporary. If the side effects are bad, as they sometimes are, they often can be remedied by switching to another kind of pill. Also, the side effects are balanced out by increased health effects and positive side effects, such as less cramping, less severe menstruation, and a lower risk of certain types of cancer. Not a bad deal, rationally speaking. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2013, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-what-would-be-a-fair-solution-for-unwanted-child-support/657480/276 "2013-05-11T15:27:27Z")
> [@Ibanez](#): > > Women can choose not to be mother .Abortion, adoption, drop the kid off in a box by the nearest fire station. A woman has the choice at the hosptial to give birth and are asked “Who’s the father ?” a false statement is all that’s needed. > > A man has no choice, it’s totally up to the woman whether he is going to be a father or not. No, it’s just not that easy to defraud a father out of his paternal rights, and it’s not the case that the man has no choice to be a father. The man is not completely powerless if he takes action to protect his paternal rights. A mother’s false statement at the hospital doesn’t mean crap if the father has filed a notice to claim paternity with his state’s paternity registry with the state’s bureau of vital statistics (or whatever it’s called in that state), generally the exact same people who maintain and issue birth certificates. If the mother attempts to give the child up for adoption and lies about the father, an attorney ad litem must be hired in the adoption proceedings to protect the absent father’s rights and locate him if possible, and one of the very first things the ad litem is going to do is to check with the state to see if anyone has filed with the paternity registry or filed a lawsuit to establish paternity. When the ad litem finds the father he has to notify him of the proceedings, and if the father shows up and tells the court “I do not consent to this adoption,” it isn’t happening. The father can then try to get custody and child support from the mother if he chooses, and it’s not going to look good to the judge that the mother filed a false report with a state agency and perjured herself in court to defraud the father. ---
**Author:** ![Ibanez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a4c791/32.png) [@Ibanez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibanez)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2013, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-what-would-be-a-fair-solution-for-unwanted-child-support/657480/277 "2013-05-11T15:49:54Z")
> [@pravnik](#): > > No, it’s just not that easy to defraud a father out of his paternal rights, and it’s not the case that the man has no choice to be a father. The man is not completely powerless if he takes action to protect his paternal rights. > > A mother’s false statement at the hospital doesn’t mean crap if the father has filed a notice to claim paternity with his state’s paternity registry with the state’s bureau of vital statistics (or whatever it’s called in that state), generally the exact same people who maintain and issue birth certificates. If the mother attempts to give the child up for adoption and lies about the father, an attorney ad litem must be hired in the adoption proceedings to protect the absent father’s rights and locate him if possible, and one of the very first things the ad litem is going to do is to check with the state to see if anyone has filed with the paternity registry or filed a lawsuit to establish paternity. When the ad litem finds the father he has to notify him of the proceedings, and if the father shows up and tells the court “I do not consent to this adoption,” it isn’t happening. The father can then try to get custody and child support from the mother if he chooses, and it’s not going to look good to the judge that the mother filed a false report with a state agency and perjured herself in court to defraud the father. I’d agree with that. But if a man doesn’t know he has a bun in the oven some where, not so much. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2013, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-what-would-be-a-fair-solution-for-unwanted-child-support/657480/278 "2013-05-11T16:00:37Z")
> [@Ibanez](#): > > I’d agree with that. But if a man doesn’t know he has a bun in the oven some where, not so much. Granted, which is why I was careful to qualify by saying “_if_ he takes action to protect his paternal rights.” At a bare minimum, he’s got to at least keep track of who he’s knocking up. ---
**Author:** ![Septima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@Septima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Septima)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2013, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-what-would-be-a-fair-solution-for-unwanted-child-support/657480/279 "2013-05-11T17:05:55Z")
**Troppus** please read again: Nowhere did I let the guy of the hook, I made it a matter of course that condoms would also be used, which as the default the man would be responsible for. I stated a personal preference for using my own condoms, that’s all. I also stated that the man in a regular relationship should be at least 50% responsible for costs. How is that letting anybody off the hook? If there was a male pill, I’d set the bar exactly the same place for men: get on in, stay on it, quit whining. And learn your history: the pill was the cornerstone of actual female equality, not just sexually but in every arena. It allowed women a control over their own reproduction that they had never had before. To scoff at that is at best misguided, at worst ignorant. No pill = no feminism, in essence. I also agree that men who are adamant that they want no children ever should bite the bullet and get snipped, or admit they might want them some day. And also think that the default in a straight couple that is done having children should be a vasectomy for the man, and that men who wont are cowardly assholes. And yes: If you are one of the small, but significant number of women who experience negative side effects, then by all means, don’t use it. Or even if you just don’t like it, which is entirely valid choice also. And thank you for the assist **Maastricht** , I just came to embarrasing conclusion that my cites were in norwegian :o ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2013, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-what-would-be-a-fair-solution-for-unwanted-child-support/657480/280 "2013-05-11T17:33:55Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > I’d like a cite for the pill having no unpleasant side effects for the vast majority of women, as well as one showing your credentials to neatly remove the responsibility for birth control from men and dumping it entirely in the laps of women. Way to dial back progress another 30 years, Septima, you’re a shining beacon for equality and responsible sex. Oh yes, god forbid that along with getting the final decision on whether a pregnancy proceeds that they should also take some extra responsibility to avoid an unwanted pregnancy in the first place. Women have a number of non-permanent and relatively easy BC methods, but you think it’d be better if every guy got a vasectomy at 16 or something cuz hey, equality and stuff. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-what-would-be-a-fair-solution-for-unwanted-child-support/657480.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-what-would-be-a-fair-solution-for-unwanted-child-support/657480.md?page=15)