# Men, what \*would\* be a fair solution for unwanted child support? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 4, 2013, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-what-would-be-a-fair-solution-for-unwanted-child-support/657480 "2013-05-04T09:19:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2013, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-what-would-be-a-fair-solution-for-unwanted-child-support/657480/101 "2013-05-06T19:28:03Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > Then let those women who get themselves pregnant do so. Along with the men who get them pregnant. Please note that [it requires two fertile adults to create a child](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_fertilization), unless one of them takes steps to become infertile. ---
**Author:** ![DiosaBellissima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@DiosaBellissima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiosaBellissima)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2013, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-what-would-be-a-fair-solution-for-unwanted-child-support/657480/102 "2013-05-06T19:29:13Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > Well, there’s the morning after pill. And abortion. And adoption, as pointed out upthread. I realize you’ve probably never taken the morning after pill,but it makes most women pretty goddamned ill. Plan B, abortions, and adoption (so, full term pregnancy) have very serious and very real consequences for women, long and short term. Don’t hand wave this away like it’s some easy, consequence-free decision to make. Again, my contention is that there really aren’t that many women out there siphoning your semen out of a used condom in the trash can to steal your $400 a month. $400 is not exactly high rolling money. > [@blindboyard](#): > > Then let those women who get themselves pregnant do so. This may come as a shock to you, but I can’t get myself pregnant. Just as much as you can’t get yourself pregnant either. If you decide to ejaculate inside of me, you have more or less made the choice to make a baby. Certainly, we can attempt to mitigate that as much as possible, but the reality of biology is fairly simple. So, what do you do if you don’t want to have babies with all the ladies you’re banging down? A few simple steps that can be used in conjunction with one another: Get snipped. Wear a condom. Pull out. Of course, you can also only sleep with partners you trust to be honest about their birth control methods and work any combination of the above into their particular set up (oral contraceptives, IUDs, etc), but I would still definitely at the very least wear a condom and pull out. All the time. Every time. Frankly, if you do the above three things and she still ends up pregnant, I suggest you happily fork over the support payments to feed that baby, because it is the second coming. (Yes, I realize it’s possible, but using those three things in conjunction with one another make the probability basically 0). ---
**Author:** ![randomface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/5fc32e/32.png) [@randomface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/randomface)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2013, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-what-would-be-a-fair-solution-for-unwanted-child-support/657480/103 "2013-05-06T19:50:36Z")
How utterly unsurprising to see feminists and traditionalists converging on the same opinion about the obligations of men. ---
**Author:** ![DiosaBellissima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@DiosaBellissima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiosaBellissima)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2013, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-what-would-be-a-fair-solution-for-unwanted-child-support/657480/104 "2013-05-06T19:51:03Z")
I think you mean equivalent obligations of all people. ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2013, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-what-would-be-a-fair-solution-for-unwanted-child-support/657480/105 "2013-05-06T19:51:59Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > Why do you feel entitled to sex with zero risk or repercussions? There was a case in the UK recently where a man was sent to prison for raping his wife, she’d consented but insisted that he should withdraw when he was close to climaxing, as she didn’t want to become pregnant. He declined to withdraw in time, although it’s perfectly possible to become pregnant from pre-ejaculate anyway. Not to outre, rape by deception is well established, such as women who think they’re having sex with their husbands, but are misled, or the famous case of the Palestinian imprisoned for rape because his lover would only sex it up with Jews. So, a simple remedy: if a woman claims to be on the pill or to not want children and then gives birth, prosecute for rape. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2013, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-what-would-be-a-fair-solution-for-unwanted-child-support/657480/106 "2013-05-06T19:53:20Z")
> [@DiosaBellissima](#): > > I think you mean equivalent obligations of all people. Seconded. There are many permanent, foolproof methods to prevent an unwanted pregnancy. I’ll be happy to provide a list and a biology lesson for those unfamiliar. You are free to choose not to create a child. ---
**Author:** ![DiosaBellissima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@DiosaBellissima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiosaBellissima)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2013, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-what-would-be-a-fair-solution-for-unwanted-child-support/657480/107 "2013-05-06T19:54:22Z")
While I don’t disagree that women who lie about their birth control status should suffer some consequence, surely you understand why what you described is totally different than the other situation you described, where in the act a person firmly and clearly stated that they wanted the act to stop, right? Right? Please tell me you understand how that’s different. You cry about false rape accusations, but want women to be prosecuted for rape if their birth control fails (something that does, statistically, happen even under perfect usage). Which, again, doesn’t even begin to address the fact that you are conflating two completely unrelated things in your examples. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2013, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-what-would-be-a-fair-solution-for-unwanted-child-support/657480/108 "2013-05-06T19:54:21Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > So, a simple remedy: if a woman claims to be on the pill or to not want children and then gives birth, prosecute for rape. Simpler remedy. Take responsibility for your own reproductive potential. ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2013, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-what-would-be-a-fair-solution-for-unwanted-child-support/657480/109 "2013-05-06T19:59:52Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > They aren’t. The present laws are notoriously biased against them, not fair. > > And it’s amazing how much of the rhetoric from women in this thread sounds like some gender flipped version of a Republican ranting about how women who need abortions or child support are sluts, and they should just “keep their legs shut”. You’re wrong: it’s not just women. Feminism is a viciously right-wing ideology, which holds to the most abhorrent of traditionalist ideas, that women are weak and need special protections, that men are bestial, that women are nurturing and should control children, that this modern music is licentious and evil (although with “misogynist” rape replacing rock and/or roll). The only difference seems to be on abortion. I mean, ark at the pope here: > [@Troppus](#): > > What’s next, a tantrum? I don’t care if you _want_ sex; sex exists to propagate the species. Are you under the impression that sex serves to entertain men? Yeah, sex for reasons other than procreation, you dirty pervert, Der Trihs. ---
**Author:** ![Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sleeps_With_Butterflies)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2013, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-what-would-be-a-fair-solution-for-unwanted-child-support/657480/110 "2013-05-06T20:02:23Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > Then let those women who get themselves pregnant do so. Thank you for the funniest thing I’ve read all week. Seriously, laughter almost to tears for at least a minute. Throwin’ down the knowledge like a BOSS. ---
**Author:** ![DiosaBellissima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@DiosaBellissima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiosaBellissima)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2013, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-what-would-be-a-fair-solution-for-unwanted-child-support/657480/111 "2013-05-06T20:02:18Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > Feminism is a viciously right-wing ideology, which holds to the most abhorrent of traditionalist ideas, that women are weak and need special protections, that men are bestial, that women are nurturing and should control children, that this modern music is licentious and evil (although with “misogynist” rape replacing rock and/or roll). The only difference seems to be on abortion. Nope, pretty sure we believe that men and women deserve as equal of treatment as is physically and logically possible. Certain things are biologically unfair-- like the idea that only a woman can decide to have an abortion because it’s her body and her choice. But beyond that, we all have the same responsibilities when creating babies. Again, I understand that you are under the ill-informed conclusion that women can make babies on our own, but we can’t. So, don’t ejaculate in a woman you don’t want to make a baby with, just like I request all men I don’t want to make babies with don’t ejaculate in me. See? Equality! ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2013, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-what-would-be-a-fair-solution-for-unwanted-child-support/657480/112 "2013-05-06T20:03:21Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > Yeah, sex for reasons other than procreation, you dirty pervert, Der Trihs. Keep reading. I acknowledged that we are darn lucky that we can often successfully enjoy a mutually satisfying sexual experience that doesn’t result in an unwanted pregnancy, but every sexually active adult should remember that the reason that sex is so enticing and feels so good is that it serves to propogate the species. No one should ever be surprised when that act results in pregnancy, not even you. ---
**Author:** ![Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sleeps_With_Butterflies)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2013, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-what-would-be-a-fair-solution-for-unwanted-child-support/657480/113 "2013-05-06T20:08:04Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > No one should ever be surprised when that act results in pregnancy, not even you. Well not now that you’ve told him how babby formed. ---
**Author:** ![Carmady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f04885/32.png) [@Carmady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carmady)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2013, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-what-would-be-a-fair-solution-for-unwanted-child-support/657480/114 "2013-05-06T20:08:19Z")
> [@DiosaBellissima](#): > > Frankly, if you do the above three things and she still ends up pregnant, I suggest you happily fork over the support payments to feed that baby, because it is the second coming. (Yes, I realize it’s possible, but using those three things in conjunction with one another make the probability basically 0). Since the probability is low, why not remove it altogether? We could have a system where a woman or man who knows they never want kids can do X, Y, and Z, and then be deemed immune from child support. Presumably X = tubal ligation or vasectomy. Y might be proof of purchase of birth control (condoms, pill, etc). If this system would allow responsible people to have sex without risking their livelihood, why not do it? ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2013, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-what-would-be-a-fair-solution-for-unwanted-child-support/657480/115 "2013-05-06T20:08:55Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > You should start a thread about what should happen in if sperm is stolen and used to impregnate a woman. Maybe Skald can help with this absurd and rare hypothetical. Meanwhile, care to answer why you feel entitled to sex without repercussions? Or why you refuse to take full responsibility for your own reproductive health? I’ll help. There’s [this one](http://www.mommyish.com/2011/11/23/woman-steals-ex-boyfriends-sperm-has-twins-sues-for-child-support-836/), where a woman saved the sperm from used condoms and took it to a fertility clinic so as to have her ex-boyfriend’s children. And she’s getting child support. Or [this one](http://www.lasisblog.com/2011/02/26/man-receives-oral-sex-ordered-to-pay-child-support/), where a woman saved sperm obtained during fellatio and impregnated herself with it. Yeah, he’s paying child support too. Those are commonplace, but [this](http://www.f4e.com.au/blog/2013/04/06/woman-steals-sperm-but-man-must-still-pay-child-support/), is odd. She stole the semen from a sperm bank, actually conning the sperm bank into giving it to her, after the man had deposited it for the mother of his child, another woman. Oh yeah, he’s still paying child support. Should anyone wish to start a thread about this absurd hypothetical, and the men who will spend nearly twenty years paying for a child they actively chose not to have, that might be a place to start. ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2013, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-what-would-be-a-fair-solution-for-unwanted-child-support/657480/116 "2013-05-06T20:13:28Z")
> [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > Then, one day when I was late, and then discovered I was a couple weeks pregnant, there was no fear and little hassle. One last time we discussed it, now that the possibility had become reality, but it was more a formality than anything. The total amount of time that passed between my discovering I was pregnant and then terminating was less than a week. It wasn’t hard, because it was something we had talked about and decided long ago. It’s good that you were reasonable, but for that time he was at your mercy. Through your choice you could have made him a parent, or made yourself a parent a made him pay for it. That is the injustice. As **Amara** says, biology isn’t fair. But this isn’t biology, biology gives you the power to abort, but also gives him the power to walk away if he chooses to. ---
**Author:** ![Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sleeps_With_Butterflies)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2013, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-what-would-be-a-fair-solution-for-unwanted-child-support/657480/117 "2013-05-06T20:15:34Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > I’ll help. There’s [this one](http://www.mommyish.com/2011/11/23/woman-steals-ex-boyfriends-sperm-has-twins-sues-for-child-support-836/), where a woman saved the sperm from used condoms and took it to a fertility clinic so as to have her ex-boyfriend’s children. And she’s getting child support. Or [this one](http://www.lasisblog.com/2011/02/26/man-receives-oral-sex-ordered-to-pay-child-support/), where a woman saved sperm obtained during fellatio and impregnated herself with it. Yeah, he’s paying child support too. **Those are commonplace** , but [this](http://www.f4e.com.au/blog/2013/04/06/woman-steals-sperm-but-man-must-still-pay-child-support/), is odd. She stole the semen from a sperm bank, actually conning the sperm bank into giving it to her, after the man had deposited it for the mother of his child, another woman. Oh yeah, he’s still paying child support. > > Should anyone wish to start a thread about this absurd hypothetical, and the men who will spend nearly twenty years paying for a child they actively chose not to have, that might be a place to start. com·mon·place /ˈkämənˌplās/ Adjective Not unusual; ordinary. Noun A usual or ordinary thing. These are ordinary things to you? Honest and true? ---
**Author:** ![DiosaBellissima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@DiosaBellissima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiosaBellissima)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2013, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-what-would-be-a-fair-solution-for-unwanted-child-support/657480/118 "2013-05-06T20:15:48Z")
Common place? _Really_? It’s common place that women are siphoning jizz out of condoms left and right to secretly impregnate themselves? What a horrible reality you live in. I can’t stop laughing at the mental image you’ve put forth. That said, again, if the average child support payment in the US is $380, what- exactly- is the net benefit of stealing your baby juice? ---
**Author:** ![EverwonderWhy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee59a6/32.png) [@EverwonderWhy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EverwonderWhy)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2013, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-what-would-be-a-fair-solution-for-unwanted-child-support/657480/119 "2013-05-06T20:20:52Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > . > Some of you men have seem to have forgotten what sex is\* for\*, if you ever knew in the first place. Sex isn’t analogous to smoking, drinking, or enjoying a good nap or a game of badminton; it feels good because _it promotes and facilitates the propagation of a species._ How in the hell can any adult with an elementary school education let the blatant purpose of sex escape you? > > For God’s sake, _viruses_ have more innate knowledge of the desire and drive to have intercourse; it is an ideal vector because living creatures can’t resist the urge to mix it up. Viruses have no innate knowledge or desires. Viruses are not really even considered ‘living’ things. The biological purpose of sex may be to propagate the species, but as humans, creatures capable of higher cognition and reason, we are able to employ intellect (unlike viruses, bacteria and a great number of species on the planet) when it comes to our biological urges. Unless you are Jim Bob or Michelle Duggar, most humans primarily engage in sex for recreational (non-procreative) purposes: emotional and psychological connection, physical release, pair bonding, pleasure, for pay, etc. The argument that sex is primarily for procreation is an incredibly bad one; seriously, just as bad when it’s used by the anti-sex, anti-contraception, anti-choice crowd or when people try to excuse piggish/sexist/misogynist behavior as a product of biological evolution :rolleyes: Just NO, the ‘sex is for propagation of species’ argument is not useful here. > [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > But I wonder how many men abandon their bastards when they are still embryos–and how many wait until they’re messy, crying little babies. Most relationships I know about that led to child support didn’t end so quickly. And many of he guys who left still wanted to have some relationship with their children… This is my take and I wonder about this too. There is difference (in my mind, at least) in a man who says from the get go he’s not interested in parenthood (and takes precautions, but still BC failures happen) and a man that sticks around making promises/commitments until the relationship gets messy and then wants to bail on child support. Though, I think both men are on the hook for child support, I think the guy that made promises (perhaps influencing the woman’s decision in maintaining the pregnancy) is the real deadbeat. Men need more birth control options, condoms or sterilization are not ideal and women would do well to ally themselves with this. Vasectomies are advised for men who don’t want _anymore_ children _ever_ and are considered pretty much permanent (though they _may_ be reversed). I wouldn’t advise a woman to get sterilised as protection from unintended pregnancy unless she was sure she didn’t want (anymore) children _ever_ and I wouldn’t advise it to a man under similar circumstances either – unless he was secure in it’s permanence. So, I think it’s a bit simpleminded to spout “just get snipped if you don’t want to pay child support,” things are a lot more complicated than that. Condoms, of course, should be used vigilantly and women should insist on them as well, but they can fail too. Vasectomies are expensive, invasive and for the most part permanent, this is a very relevant factor. I am extremely disappointed that the Preventive Care Provisions of the ACA did NOT include vasectomies in the contraceptive mandate portion. This is a great injustice, IMO. Women look to men to ally with them in contraceptive access and reproductive freedom, we should reciprocate and partner with men in seeking increased access to vasectomies and the development of long-acting male contraceptives (like a male IUD or pill). ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2013, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-what-would-be-a-fair-solution-for-unwanted-child-support/657480/120 "2013-05-06T20:22:32Z")
For many, many years the law was exactly as a lot of folks in the thread suggest it should be today, fathers owed child support to children born into wedlock and owed nothing to children born out of wedlock. That was just how things were until about 40 years ago, when a child born out of wedlock went before the U.S. Supreme Court and said (or rather his lawyer said) “wait a minute. The State has two sets of laws for two different classes of children, and I’m getting differential treatment under the law (aka the shaft) based on a classification that I have no control over whatsoever, in violation of the Equal Protection Clause of the U.S. Constitution.” The Court agreed, and child support laws in the country changed fundamentally. By and large, that change has become widely accepted, largely because society as a whole doesn’t want to have to pay for someone else’s children in the form of public assistance. The number of people who believe that it’s not fair to make fathers who don’t want to be fathers pay child support is dwarfed by the number of taxpayers who thi nk it’s unfair to have to pay for other people’s children because they don’t want to. In 2012, 51% of unpaid child support obligations were owed to unpaid families, and the remaining 49% was owed to taxpayers because payments weren’t made to custodial parents who then had to go on public assitance, to the tune of $53 billion dollars. [Cite](http://money.cnn.com/2012/11/05/news/economy/unpaid-child-support/index.html). Not 53 million, 53 billion. If we allowed anyone who wanted out of child support to simply opt out of the system, the demand on public assistance would be higher than than that by a magnitude of many billions of dollars. So if the position being advocated is to allow unmarried biological fathers to unilaterally opt out of fatherhood, here’s what has to happen: (1) convince the state legislature to change state law so as to put a multi-billion dollar burden on public assistance programs, then when the law gets challenged in federal court convince the U.S. Supreme Court to overturn extremely uncontroversial and well settled 40 year old Equal Protection precedent, or (2) get a constitutional amedment approved by two-thirds majority vote in both the House of Representatives and the Senate or a constitutional convention called for by two-thirds of the State legislatures, followed by a ratification three-fourths of the States. In other words, no matter how many threads we have on it here it’s never, _never_ going to happen, ever. You would have a much easier time overturning _Roe v. Wade_. And while we’re on it, no, a mother cannot simply give a child up for adotption over the protest of the father, even if she flees to Utah. Parental termination is one of the few instances where the best interest of the child is _not_ the sole issue; the child’s interest must be balanced against the parent’s substantive due process rights under the U.S. Constitution to the parent-child relationship. If you read through the Terry Achane case you’ll see that the trial judge ordered that the child be returned to the father, saying that he was “astonished and deeply troubled” that the adoption agency proceeded with the adoption without Achane’s consent, and the Utah Supreme Court denied the adoptive parents request to overturn that decision. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-what-would-be-a-fair-solution-for-unwanted-child-support/657480.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-what-would-be-a-fair-solution-for-unwanted-child-support/657480.md?page=7)