# Men, what \*would\* be a fair solution for unwanted child support? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 4, 2013, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-what-would-be-a-fair-solution-for-unwanted-child-support/657480 "2013-05-04T09:19:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2013, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-what-would-be-a-fair-solution-for-unwanted-child-support/657480/161 "2013-05-06T21:30:35Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > I think you are deliberately misunderstanding me. If sex involves responsibility of all partners and one partner can’t use their partner as an explanation for their own lack of responsibility, then women need to step up to the plate an accept the full responsibility of parenthood if they are not going to be mature about recreational sex and have an abortion when there is a birth control failure. Even assuming that unplanned pregnancy is caught in time, occurs in a state where abortion is legal, accessible, and affordable, no. I do not believe that surgery should be forced on anyone. ---
**Author:** ![EverwonderWhy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee59a6/32.png) [@EverwonderWhy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EverwonderWhy)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2013, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-what-would-be-a-fair-solution-for-unwanted-child-support/657480/162 "2013-05-06T21:31:04Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > Acknowledged and addressed. The awesome side effects and benefits which drive the biological imperative are divine, but the act of sex can never stand apart from its primary purpose, and anyone who assumes it exists solely for our recreational pleasure and enjoyment is foolish. Speak for yourself. Human sex is more than a biological urge. Humans are psychological, social as well as biological creatures. I have sex _solely_ for recreational reasons (as me and my partner are committed childfree), our urges stand completely apart from procreation and are not mere side effects of the some ‘divine biological imperative’ :rolleyes: Sure, humans have a biological urge to have sex, not necessarily to procreate, the procreation is more of the side effect. The biological urge even in animals is sexual, not driven by some ‘procreative’ desire. Your argument here is foolish. Men biologically can just walk away from their children too, otherwise modern and enlightened societies wouldn’t be using civil means to enforce their responsibility. Bad argument, seriously. ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2013, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-what-would-be-a-fair-solution-for-unwanted-child-support/657480/163 "2013-05-06T21:31:12Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > You are the only one who can control your reproductive potential and where your dick goes. As explicitly stated and uncontested, a man who is raped or who has his sperm stolen, or is the victim of statutory rape, will still be held responsible. So no, you are not the only one. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2013, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-what-would-be-a-fair-solution-for-unwanted-child-support/657480/164 "2013-05-06T21:31:58Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > The taxpayers should blame the person responsible: the woman who selfishly choose to bring an unwanted child into the world. You mean the woman and the man who selfishly choose to create a potentially viable zygote, right? ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2013, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-what-would-be-a-fair-solution-for-unwanted-child-support/657480/165 "2013-05-06T21:33:16Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > Even assuming that unplanned pregnancy is caught in time, occurs in a state where abortion is legal, accessible, and affordable, no. I do not believe that surgery should be forced on anyone. Neither should parenthood. Stop forcing financial obligations on men for babies they never agreeded to and no one will suggest forcing surgery on women. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2013, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-what-would-be-a-fair-solution-for-unwanted-child-support/657480/166 "2013-05-06T21:36:05Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > You mean the woman and the man who selfishly choose to create a potentially viable zygote, right? Only if you are going to grant the man the legal right to force the expulsion of the the zygote from the woman’s body prior to viability. Otherwise, no he’s not the selfish twit choosing to make an unwanted baby, she is. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2013, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-what-would-be-a-fair-solution-for-unwanted-child-support/657480/167 "2013-05-06T21:37:38Z")
> [@EverwonderWhy](#): > > Speak for yourself. Human sex is more than a biological urge. Humans are psychological, social as well as biological creatures. I have sex _solely_ for recreational reasons (as me and my partner are committed childfree), our urges stand completely apart from procreation and are not mere side effects of the some ‘divine biological imperative’ :rolleyes: > > Sure, humans have a biological urge to have sex, not necessarily to procreate, the procreation is more of the side effect. The biological urge even in animals is sexual, not driven by some ‘procreative’ desire. > > Your argument here is foolish. Men biologically can just walk away from their children too, otherwise modern and enlightened societies wouldn’t be using civil means to enforce their responsibility. Bad argument, seriously. Take a biology class, please. Sex serves a purpose; the side effects are secondary. And please note that divine isn’t capitalized; I suffer no illusion that anything other than evolution drives our urges. I, too, have been successfully having sex primarily for recreation for 25+ years and have only conceived one wanted child, as does my partner, but I suffer no illusions that sex is removed from procreation. I guess you’ll have to credit me with taking full responsibility for my own reproductive potential, too, huh? ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2013, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-what-would-be-a-fair-solution-for-unwanted-child-support/657480/168 "2013-05-06T21:41:27Z")
This argument is beyond ridiculous. I don’t have any children I don’t want; I suggest each of you take whatever steps necessary to ensure that unwanted pregancies don’t occur, and I’m not in the least inclined to encourage my government to force a surgical procedure on another human being, bail you out or excuse you from supporting the result of your having sex with a fertile partner. ---
**Author:** ![DiosaBellissima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@DiosaBellissima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiosaBellissima)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2013, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-what-would-be-a-fair-solution-for-unwanted-child-support/657480/169 "2013-05-06T21:43:40Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Make abortion free (a social program I wholeheartedly support), so there should be no reasonable excuse for a woman choosing to have an unwanted child. For the record, I actually agree completely: abortion should be free, easy, and as accessible as possible. But that ain’t the present reality in the US, particularly in states that are trying their damndest to make abortion impossible for women who desperately want it. But I also agree with that last lil bit **Troppus** just said. ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2013, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-what-would-be-a-fair-solution-for-unwanted-child-support/657480/170 "2013-05-06T21:45:26Z")
> **[Family Law Consulting - What We Do](https://famlawconsult.com/)** > > Memos, briefs, legal content, trial and appellate advocacy for matrimonial lawyers > [@](#): > > Another case reaching the same result on facts that are, quite frankly, bizarre is S.F. v. Alabama ex rel. T.M., 695 So. 2d 1186 (Ala. Civ. App. 1996). In that case, the father testified that he went to a party at the mother’s house. He had been drinking for several hours before he arrived, and had in fact gotten sick on the way to her house. At the mother’s house, the father continued to drink, and the last think he remembered was getting sick again and his brother putting him in bed at the mother’s house. The next morning, the father awoke in that same bed with only his shirt on. The father did not remember having sex with the mother, and he did not knowingly and purposely have sex with her. > > The father’s brother testified as to the same facts. A friend of both the mother testified as to the same facts, **plus the fact that about two months after the party, the mother said she had sex with the father while he was “passed out” and that it saved her a trip to the sperm bank**. Another friend testified that the mother had said she had sex with the father, “and he wasn’t even aware of it.” > > A physician testified that it is possible for a man who is intoxicated to the point of losing consciousness may nevertheless have an erection and ejaculate; they are not conscious, voluntary activities. > > The father argued that because he did not have sex voluntarily with the mother, he was not liable for child support. \*\*The court disposed of the argument, comparing it to the arguments made in L. Pamela P. v. Frank S.: the wrongful conduct of the mother in causing conception did not obviate the father’s support obligation. The court also compared the father’s argument to the arguments put forth in the statutory rape cases, concluding that the “rape” of the father could not preclude a finding of liability for support. > \*\* > The dissent would have held the father liable for child support, but would have deviated from the presumptive child support guidelines because “the mother’s sexual conduct was reprehensible and is a misdemeanor. Because of the mother’s inappropriate conduct, the trial court should have deviated from the guidelines.” 695 So. 2d at 1191. > > The lesson one can take from Frisard is simple: a man is strictly liable for where his sperm ends up when he voluntarily engages in a sexual act. The lesson one must take from S.F. v. T.M., however, is somewhat troubling: a man is strictly liable for where his sperm ends up even when he unknowingly and involuntarily engages in a sexual act. Instead of comparing the father’s predicament with the mother’s predicament in Division of Child Support Enforcement ex rel. Esther M. v. Mary L., No. 94-33812 (1994.DE.19031), **where a mother was relieved of her child support obligation because she was raped** , the court imposed a child support obligation because of the fact of paternity. This can only be termed a strict liability theory of sperm. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2013, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-what-would-be-a-fair-solution-for-unwanted-child-support/657480/171 "2013-05-06T21:46:02Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Only if you are going to grant the man the legal right to force the expulsion of the the zygote from the woman’s body prior to viability. Otherwise, no he’s not the selfish twit choosing to make an unwanted baby, she is. It really doesn’t matter one whit who had the final say in the kid being born once they are born. Kids deserve to be supported and those who created them are the ones with the obligation. The kid should ALWAYS come first. For virtually all of human history women had to carry the burden/pay the consequences no matter what they personally preferred (and no matter what their personal level of autonomy was where sex was concerned…women haven’t historically had a lot of say in that, either). Now they can make a choice and men have to carry a much less profound burden when they make a “mistake” based on their own personal choice. Seriously, I can’t work up a lot of sympathy. ---
**Author:** ![DiosaBellissima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@DiosaBellissima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiosaBellissima)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2013, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-what-would-be-a-fair-solution-for-unwanted-child-support/657480/172 "2013-05-06T21:49:21Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > [Family Law Consulting - What We Do](http://www.supportguidelines.com/articles/art199903.html) Cool story, bro. Got any actual studies about “spermjacking”? ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2013, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-what-would-be-a-fair-solution-for-unwanted-child-support/657480/173 "2013-05-06T21:56:27Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > [Family Law Consulting - What We Do](http://www.supportguidelines.com/articles/art199903.html) Here’s a crazy, rare outlier that is as rare and absurd as the nonsense you’re throwing out here. “The [rapist sued for custody and visitation rights](http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/22/opinion/prewitt-rapist-visitation-rights/index.html?hpt=hp_t2)to the baby. In 31 of 50 U.S. states, rapists have the right to do so.” > **[Raped, pregnant and ordeal not over | CNN](https://www.cnn.com/2012/08/22/opinion/prewitt-rapist-visitation-rights/index.html?hpt=hp_t2)** > > Shauna Prewitt’s baby was conceived through rape and her rapist sued for parental rights. She calls for laws to prevent this injustice. How long do you want to play the “but what if” game? ---
**Author:** ![Fubaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@Fubaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fubaya)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2013, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-what-would-be-a-fair-solution-for-unwanted-child-support/657480/174 "2013-05-06T22:11:11Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > It really doesn’t matter one whit who had the final say in the kid being born once they are born. Kids deserve to be supported and those who created them are the ones with the obligation. The kid should ALWAYS come first. This. And some if the things others have said. I haven’t read all the replies so maybe I’m missing something, but i don’t even understand the question. Once a child is here, there’s no “but I didn’t want it so I shouldn’t have to support it.” That’s not how courts work. The parents feelings simply don’t enter the equation, nor should they. Child support, parenting, visitation etc are not for the parents, they’re for the child that is already living in this world and that the parent helped create. They may not have wanted it, but they made it, now they’re stuck with it, period. ---
**Author:** ![randomface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/5fc32e/32.png) [@randomface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/randomface)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2013, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-what-would-be-a-fair-solution-for-unwanted-child-support/657480/175 "2013-05-06T22:15:02Z")
According to the [CDC on page 48 of this report](http://www.cdc.gov/ViolencePrevention/pdf/NISVS_Report2010-a.pdf)(warning: pdf), over 10% of men and over 8.5% of women reported their partner trying to get them or themselves pregnant without their consent. It may not meet a strict definition of “spermjacking” but it definitely isn’t something men just made up. ---
**Author:** ![EverwonderWhy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee59a6/32.png) [@EverwonderWhy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EverwonderWhy)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2013, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-what-would-be-a-fair-solution-for-unwanted-child-support/657480/176 "2013-05-06T22:25:10Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > Take a biology class, please. Sex serves a purpose; the side effects are secondary. And please note that divine isn’t capitalized; I suffer no illusion that anything other than evolution drives our urges. Actually, I work in clinical research so I am pretty well versed in university level human biology, anatomy, physiology, pathophysiology, microbiology, clinical healthcare, etc, I was also a graduate level TA in human anatomy. The human biological urge is for sex - not to procreate. The desire for children is a human concept. You, your rhetoric and failed argument are doing a great disservice on this topic. You might as well be speaking as a fundy member of the RCC or quiverfull movement. ---
**Author:** ![DiosaBellissima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@DiosaBellissima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiosaBellissima)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2013, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-what-would-be-a-fair-solution-for-unwanted-child-support/657480/177 "2013-05-06T22:26:23Z")
> [@randomface](#): > > According to the [CDC on page 48 of this report](http://www.cdc.gov/ViolencePrevention/pdf/NISVS_Report2010-a.pdf)(warning: pdf), over 10% of men and over 8.5% of women reported their partner trying to get them or themselves pregnant without their consent. It may not meet a strict definition of “spermjacking” but it definitely isn’t something men just made up. So, it happens more or less the same to men and women is what you’re saying? ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2013, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-what-would-be-a-fair-solution-for-unwanted-child-support/657480/178 "2013-05-06T22:30:20Z")
> [@EverwonderWhy](#): > > Actually, I work in clinical research so I am pretty well versed in university level human biology, anatomy, physiology, pathophysiology, microbiology, clinical healthcare, etc, I was also a graduate level TA in human anatomy. > > The human biological urge is for sex - not to procreate. The desire for children is a human concept. > > You, your rhetoric and failed argument are doing a great disservice on this topic. You might as well be speaking as a fundy member of the RCC or quiverfull movement. You don’t think that sex evolved to be enjoyable as a way of ensuring the species would propagate? ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2013, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-what-would-be-a-fair-solution-for-unwanted-child-support/657480/179 "2013-05-06T22:44:56Z")
> [@EverwonderWhy](#): > > The human biological urge is for sex - not to procreate. The desire for children is a human concept. So what drives non-human creatures to copulate? Don’t say the potential to obtain child support payments. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2013, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-what-would-be-a-fair-solution-for-unwanted-child-support/657480/180 "2013-05-06T23:13:46Z")
I know it’s not fair to the child, but I’ve always thought that a party should be able to legally sign away any obligations to an unwanted child \*before[/i[ the sex act takes place. Somehow, these guys never go for it. It seems like letting a woman know upfront that you intend to abandon your children gets in the way of their desire to have unprotected sex with you. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-what-would-be-a-fair-solution-for-unwanted-child-support/657480.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-what-would-be-a-fair-solution-for-unwanted-child-support/657480.md?page=10)