# Men who abuse young boys sexually are not homosexuals - Valid argument? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 23, 2012, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-who-abuse-young-boys-sexually-are-not-homosexuals-valid-argument/610349 "2012-01-23T00:48:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2012, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-who-abuse-young-boys-sexually-are-not-homosexuals-valid-argument/610349/1 "2012-01-23T00:48:11Z")
Despite going after young boys almost exclusively, the claim is made that male pedophiles are not necessarily “gay” in terms being attracted to males. This argument is discussed here [-“Homosexuality and Pedophilia: The False Link”](http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/gays-anatomy/200809/homosexuality-and-pedophilia-the-false-link) Do you think this argument is valid? > [@](#): > > Herek points out that child molestation and child sexual abuse refer to “actions,” without implying any “particular psychological makeup or motive on the part of the perpetrator.” In other words, not all incidents of child sexual abuse are perpetrated by pedophiles. Pedophilia can be viewed as a kind of sexual fetish, wherein the person requires the mental image of a child–not necessarily a flesh-and-blood child–to achieve sexual gratification. Rarely does a pedophile experience sexual desire for adults of either gender. They usually don’t identify as homosexual-the majority identify as heterosexual, even those who abuse children of the same gender They are sexually aroused by youth, not by gender. In contrast, child molesters often exert power and control over children in an effort to dominate them. They do experience sexual desire for adults, but molest children episodically, for reasons apart from sexual desire, much as rapists enjoy power, violence and controlling their humiliated victims. Indeed, research supports that a child molester isn’t any more likely to be homosexual than heterosexual. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2012, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-who-abuse-young-boys-sexually-are-not-homosexuals-valid-argument/610349/2 "2012-01-23T01:00:21Z")
Well for one thing, do they really molest “young boys almost exclusively”? And for another; I’ve seen it pointed out that in fact children resemble females more than males in many ways; smaller, higher pitched voices, smoother skin, lack of large muscles, etc. Children of both genders lack most of the features that homosexuals find attractive, and have female-ish features that they often find un-attractive. You could just as easily claim that pedophiles “must all be heterosexual” since they are attracted to something that so little resembles adult males. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2012, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-who-abuse-young-boys-sexually-are-not-homosexuals-valid-argument/610349/3 "2012-01-23T01:02:34Z")
Some are, some aren’t. Some just are that messed up. In the converse, I don’t see people speculating about the preferences of people who abuse girls. Or when a pastor has accusations of homosexual behavior, some people will suggest “he can’t be gay, he’s married” (or, he “chose” etc.) :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2012, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-who-abuse-young-boys-sexually-are-not-homosexuals-valid-argument/610349/4 "2012-01-23T01:19:20Z")
According to the class on Nursing Care for LGBT Elders I took yesterday, a homosexual person is not a person who has sex with a person of the same gender. Homosexuals are people who form or have the ability to form reciprocally meaningful \*relationships \*- mental, emotional, physical and sexual - with a person of the same gender. Men can have sex with men and not consider themselves homosexual, not relate to the homosexual community and live their entire lives as heterosexuals (who occasionally have sex, but not relationships, with other men). Kinsey found that 1 in 3 men had a same-sex encounter during his lifetime, and we have no reason to believe that number has changed, but we don’t say that one third of men are homosexual. Can a pedophile form reciprocally meaningful relationships with the children s/he’s having sex with? That’s a whole argument of its own, and I think the answer to that is the answer to this. If s/he can, then sure, if the gender of choice is the same as the gender of the pedophile, I guess you could call that homosexual in orientation. But I don’t think that’s even a very large minority of cases. Most of the time, there is no reciprocal meaningful relationship there, and so the question of orientation is the wrong question. That’s why we call it “pedophilia” and not “pedosexuality”… “Pedosexual” is indeed a term that some are trying to introduce into the vocabulary as a value neutral term, but most people aren’t buying it. Indeed, it seems to be becoming something of a shibboleth for the NAMBLA types. ---
**Author:** ![Vicullum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/6de8d8/32.png) [@Vicullum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vicullum)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2012, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-who-abuse-young-boys-sexually-are-not-homosexuals-valid-argument/610349/5 "2012-01-23T01:20:03Z")
I thought for sure that pedophiles have a preferred gender they target, but it seems some really are indiscriminate. [James Porter](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Porter_(Catholic_priest)) and [Albert Fish](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_fish) molested children of both sexes. ---
**Author:** ![carnut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnut/32/3531_2.png) [@carnut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnut)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2012, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-who-abuse-young-boys-sexually-are-not-homosexuals-valid-argument/610349/6 "2012-01-23T01:23:38Z")
There have been estimates of as many as one in four girls having been sexually molested by the time she reaches age 18. However, I have never seen study results that show how many were molested by adults, nor how many were pre-pubescent when molested. These are muddy waters. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2012, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-who-abuse-young-boys-sexually-are-not-homosexuals-valid-argument/610349/7 "2012-01-23T01:29:58Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > According to the class on Nursing Care for LGBT Elders I took yesterday, a homosexual person is not a person who has sex with a person of the same gender. Homosexuals are people who form or have the ability to form reciprocally meaningful \*relationships \*- mental, emotional, physical and sexual - with a person of the same gender. Maybe that’s how it is according to the class, but I think it’s BS. Some people _can’t_ form meaningful relationships with _anyone_ - they’re just sexual opportunists and/or sociopaths who use people. Is it then proper to say that these people have _no_ sexuality? No. The commonly accepted definition of hetero- or homo- sexual means you’re sexually attracted to that person. Sexual, not emotional. ---
**Author:** ![Toucanna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3bc359/32.png) [@Toucanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Toucanna)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2012, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-who-abuse-young-boys-sexually-are-not-homosexuals-valid-argument/610349/8 "2012-01-23T02:23:43Z")
I would say, “men who abuse young boys sexually are not necessarily homosexuals”. [_Vulnerable Populations, Volume 1_](http://www.amazon.com/Vulnerable-Populations-Vol-Suzanne-Sgroi/dp/0669163368) by Suzanne M. Sgroi, M.D. can explain why. It’s a tough read, with heart-breaking case histories, but very informational. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2012, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-who-abuse-young-boys-sexually-are-not-homosexuals-valid-argument/610349/9 "2012-01-23T02:45:53Z")
> [@astro](#): > > Despite going after young boys almost exclusively, the claim is made that male pedophiles are not necessarily “gay” in terms being attracted to males. A few years ago we had this discussion and I actually contacted Dr. William Marshall, an expert in deviant psychology who at the time worked at Queen’s University in Kingston. Dr. Marshall’s response was that is is in fact true that men who abuse young boys are overwhelmingly heterosexual when engaging in sexual relationships with other adults. He provided me with a lot of stuff but it boiled down to this: 1. Men who abuse prepubscent children and pubescent girls (e.g. starting around the beginning of puberty, e.g. age 11-12 to whatever the age of consent is) are almost invariably straight with respect to their relationships with adults. 2. Men who abuse pubescent boys are usually gay with respect to their relationships to other adults. ---
**Author:** ![typoink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@typoink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/typoink)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2012, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-who-abuse-young-boys-sexually-are-not-homosexuals-valid-argument/610349/10 "2012-01-23T03:41:30Z")
The supporting bit I’ve always heard on this, which has always made a lot of sense to me, boils down to: pedophiles are attracted to children, and are (I believe) overwhelmingly male. It’s a lot easier for men to be in exploitable situations with boys, except in cases of family members. Targeting boys over girls is, in many ways, an issue of opportunity. So, in this case, a pedophile could be heterosexual or homosexual, but that’s not necessarily relevant to who they target. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2012, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-who-abuse-young-boys-sexually-are-not-homosexuals-valid-argument/610349/11 "2012-01-23T04:20:30Z")
> [@typoink](#): > > It’s a lot easier for men to be in exploitable situations with boys Huh? Really? I’ll bet if one male and one female with equivalent qualifications advertised a bunch for babysitting or childcare, the female would get a lot more interest, primarily because of fears of leaving a strange man alone with kids. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2012, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-who-abuse-young-boys-sexually-are-not-homosexuals-valid-argument/610349/12 "2012-01-23T04:22:20Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > Huh? Really? I’ll bet if one male and one female with equivalent qualifications advertised a bunch for babysitting or childcare, the female would get a lot more interest, primarily because of fears of leaving a strange man alone with kids. It’s a lot easier for men to be in exploitable situations with boys _than with girls._ ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2012, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-who-abuse-young-boys-sexually-are-not-homosexuals-valid-argument/610349/13 "2012-01-23T04:24:41Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > Maybe that’s how it is according to the class, but I think it’s BS. Some people _can’t_ form meaningful relationships with _anyone_ - they’re just sexual opportunists and/or sociopaths who use people. Is it then proper to say that these people have _no_ sexuality? No. > > The commonly accepted definition of hetero- or homo- sexual means you’re sexually attracted to that person. Sexual, not emotional. That’d be true if we were writing descriptive discourse on animal behavior, but we aren’t. Terms like “homosexual” do not simply describe a behavior, but also it’s meaning in society. We are social animals. Being “gay” in prison is a different thing than being “gay” in a bathhouse is a different thing than being “gay” in Ancient Greece. It’s impossible to understand these ideas without understanding their social significance. They can’t be separated. A woman who sometimes notices that other women look pretty hot, and once made out with a girl it a party in college, but otherwise lives a 100% heterosexual life and doesn’t identify as LGBT in any way is not in anyway meaningfully bisexual. The guy who is having prison sex and actually does kind of appreciate his partner’s abs is probably not meaningfully gay. It’s kind of like the word “child.” You can describe a person in a zoological way as "juvenile’ based on their physical development. But in reality, being a child, identifying as a child, and being described as a child are heavily dependent on the social context. Anyway, I agree that pedophilia is it’s own kind of attraction. Pedophiles who target girls, for example, are often unable to sustain real relationships with women their own age. They are attracted to girls, not females. It’s a different sort of thing. ---
**Author:** ![Namkcalb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c89c15/32.png) [@Namkcalb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Namkcalb)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2012, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-who-abuse-young-boys-sexually-are-not-homosexuals-valid-argument/610349/14 "2012-01-23T05:30:30Z")
Boy-abusers are to homosexuals like someone who eats people alive is a meat eater. Whilst they meet the definition, it is not the most salient thing about their identity. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2012, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-who-abuse-young-boys-sexually-are-not-homosexuals-valid-argument/610349/15 "2012-01-23T05:58:56Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > That’d be true if we were writing descriptive discourse on animal behavior, but we aren’t. Terms like “homosexual” do not simply describe a behavior, but also it’s meaning in society. We are social animals. Being “gay” in prison is a different thing than being “gay” in a bathhouse is a different thing than being “gay” in Ancient Greece. It’s impossible to understand these ideas without understanding their social significance. They can’t be separated. > > A woman who sometimes notices that other women look pretty hot, and once made out with a girl it a party in college, but otherwise lives a 100% heterosexual life and doesn’t identify as LGBT in any way is not in anyway meaningfully bisexual. **The guy who is having prison sex and actually does kind of appreciate his partner’s abs is probably not meaningfully gay**. > > It’s kind of like the word “child.” You can describe a person in a zoological way as "juvenile’ based on their physical development. But in reality, being a child, identifying as a child, and being described as a child are heavily dependent on the social context. > > Anyway, I agree that pedophilia is it’s own kind of attraction. Pedophiles who target girls, for example, are often unable to sustain real relationships with women their own age. They are attracted to girls, not females. It’s a different sort of thing. (bolding mine) Could you clarify what you mean by “meaningfully gay”? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2012, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-who-abuse-young-boys-sexually-are-not-homosexuals-valid-argument/610349/16 "2012-01-23T06:10:07Z")
Would you call a man only attracted to pre pubescent girls (say age 5) heterosexual? I wouldn’t, he is a pedophile by definition. However I do think sometimes the media uses the term pedophile when it doesn’t make sense and [Ephebophilia - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephebophilia) would make sense. I recall some of the catholic priest scandals involved boys aged 15 and up, which while still illegal and a gross violation of trust isn’t pedophilia. ---
**Author:** ![Untoward\_Parable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/51bf81/32.png) [@Untoward\_Parable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Untoward_Parable)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2012, 9:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-who-abuse-young-boys-sexually-are-not-homosexuals-valid-argument/610349/17 "2012-01-23T09:26:34Z")
As a man if you are not attracted to adult men even 16-18 year old men you are not gay (assuming you are significantly older than the people you are attracted to). Period end of story not interesting or complicated. ---
**Author:** ![MostlyClueless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@MostlyClueless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MostlyClueless)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2012, 9:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-who-abuse-young-boys-sexually-are-not-homosexuals-valid-argument/610349/18 "2012-01-23T09:37:56Z")
> [@](#): > > The guy who is having prison sex and actually does kind of appreciate his partner’s abs is probably not meaningfully gay. > [@Ambivalid](#): > > (bolding mine) > > Could you clarify what you mean by “meaningfully gay”? 😕 _“Situational sexual behavior is sexual behavior of a kind that is different from that which the person normally exhibits, due to a social environment that in some way permits, encourages, or compels those acts. This can also include situations where a person’s usual sexual behavior may not be possible, so rather than not engaging in sexual activity at all they may engage in different sexual behaviors.”_ Quoth [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Situational_sexual_behavior). ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2012, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-who-abuse-young-boys-sexually-are-not-homosexuals-valid-argument/610349/19 "2012-01-23T13:48:19Z")
That Wki cite sounds like the old “Queen for a day” waiver that let a lot of guys stay in the military pre-DADT. I could say “normal is as normal does,” or “‘normal’ is just a setting on a washing machine.” As for “meaningful homosexual,” is that the distinction between someone who has gay sex for pleasure, but is not liable to form a “meaningful” romantic attachmen? If that’s the distinction, there are few if any meaningful heterosexuals under age 35. This stinks of PC “gays are not bad.” No they are not. Gay menare not The gay community (whatever that is, but let’s consider it a political community working for its human rights) is not bad. Jeffrey Dahmer was bad, and he was gay. He killed young smooth boys and preserved them so he could have meaningful relationships with their corpses, and he had sex with adult gay men at bathhouses. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2012, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-who-abuse-young-boys-sexually-are-not-homosexuals-valid-argument/610349/20 "2012-01-23T14:49:53Z")
> [@Slithy\_Tove](#): > > s for “meaningful homosexual,” is that the distinction between someone who has gay sex for pleasure, but is not liable to form a “meaningful” romantic attachmen? If that’s the distinction, there are few if any meaningful heterosexuals under age 35. It’s the difference between a man who’s sexual attraction is to other men vs. someone whose sexual attraction is to women, but who has sex with another man due to social constraints. Prison sex is a prime example: gay sex is the only outlet (there are other issues, such as power relationships). And back in the 20s, it was considered acceptable for unmarried to have sex with another man for sexual release (masturbation, as everyone knew, was a dangerous and debilitating vice), as long as you didn’t “play the woman.” [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-who-abuse-young-boys-sexually-are-not-homosexuals-valid-argument/610349.md?page=2)