# Men who avoid women at work because of fear of alleged reports of sexual harassment **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 1, 2021, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-who-avoid-women-at-work-because-of-fear-of-alleged-reports-of-sexual-harassment/949906 "2021-09-01T15:02:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Falchion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@Falchion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falchion)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2021, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-who-avoid-women-at-work-because-of-fear-of-alleged-reports-of-sexual-harassment/949906/281 "2021-09-07T15:39:00Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > I once asked a guy if he’d lost weight. (He’s lost so much weight his clothes no longer fit, and I was relieved to hear that he’d been dieting.) I sometimes compliment pretty jewelry, or a nice tie. That’s about it for comments on personal appearance at work. A few years ago, I lost a bunch of weight (I put it all back on working from home the past 18 months ☹ ). I had several male and at least one female coworker comment it. It was nice. I also know that I would _never_ make a similar observation about a female coworker (and none of my male coworkers would either). ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2021, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-who-avoid-women-at-work-because-of-fear-of-alleged-reports-of-sexual-harassment/949906/282 "2021-09-07T16:41:12Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Of course, if a woman wouldn’t take a private 1:1 with a man due to concerns about sexual harassment (or worse), you wouldn’t for a moment call this discriminatory, because reasons. Although I’m not the person you were replying to here, I’ll just note that I already said back in post #238 that I would consider it just as unfair if a woman did this. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2021, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-who-avoid-women-at-work-because-of-fear-of-alleged-reports-of-sexual-harassment/949906/283 "2021-09-07T17:21:33Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > > [@puzzlegal](#): > > > > I am not a lawyer, but that would absolutely be my advice. I think it’s a no win situation for the person being harassed, and running away before it blows up is likely to be the best outcome for them. > > > > > Not the best for society, or for that company. But for them. > > They’re the one who’s going to be out of a job; and very probably to get a reputation for quitting with no reason, since you seem to be advising that they not report the reason. How on earth is that better for them? I would certainly advise them to find a new job, first, and not just quit today. People leave for new jobs all the time. Unless you do it regularly, it’s expected and doesn’t reflect badly on anyone. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2021, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-who-avoid-women-at-work-because-of-fear-of-alleged-reports-of-sexual-harassment/949906/284 "2021-09-07T19:03:19Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Workplaces with a small group of people whose work and social lives have gotten blurred together often do have a good deal more leeway; in large part because people get to know each other and the conversational rules become more those for talk among a group of friends than those for a business situation. Yeah, definitely. I worked at my last employer for nearly 10 years, and about 7 or so of that was with three women. We weren’t particularly raunchy, but our jokes and peanut gallery commentary about others in the company was definitely not employee handbook standard. I think a lot of the reason for the sentiment is actually because most companies have mandatory sexual harassment training, and while they always explain the egregious things and have those as the example situations in the training, they leave the rest VERY open ended, and basically imply that the burden of proof is on you to prove you DIDN’T do it. Basically if someone feels they’re being sexually harassed, then they are, even if it was a simple misunderstanding or misperception and there was no intent, there was nothing actually untoward going on, etc… So I can see some men who are uncomfortable around women and/or very risk averse, deciding that they’re just not going to play that game at all. ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2021, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-who-avoid-women-at-work-because-of-fear-of-alleged-reports-of-sexual-harassment/949906/285 "2021-09-07T19:19:13Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Yeah, definitely. I worked at my last employer for nearly 10 years, and about 7 or so of that was with three women. We weren’t particularly raunchy, but our jokes and peanut gallery commentary about others in the company was definitely not employee handbook standard. One aspect of this is how well people can read non-verbal clues. If you can really tell how people feel, then you’re unlikely to cross any boundaries. You’ll see that you’re approaching a line well before you get there and can back off. If the other person is fine with it, they they’ll also engage and it’ll all be friendly fun. But many people are terrible at it and don’t pick up signals that the other person is not interested. I’m sure we all have coworkers who plow on telling boring stories even though the other person has a blank expression, arms crossed, and is just murmuring “Mmm Hmmm” every now and then. For those kinds of people, it probably is best to have hard and clear restrictions on limiting interactions with women. If they can’t tell that a coworker is bored to tears after a 20 minute soliloquy about roof repair, then likely they won’t pick up on clues that the coworker is offended by off-color jokes or suggestive comments. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2021, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-who-avoid-women-at-work-because-of-fear-of-alleged-reports-of-sexual-harassment/949906/286 "2021-09-07T19:27:50Z")
I think it depends on how much weight. Once a man I worked with occasionally lost weight………going from somewhere around 400 pounds to 175. I don’t think it would’ve been possible not to recognize it. Because I literally didn’t recognize him. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2021, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-who-avoid-women-at-work-because-of-fear-of-alleged-reports-of-sexual-harassment/949906/287 "2021-09-07T22:00:45Z")
> [@yarblek](#): > > An [escort is just a (type of) prostitute](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskAnEscort/) Not necessarily. American Heritage > **es·cort** (ĕskôrt′) > _n._ >      **1.** >          **a.** […] >          **b.** […] >          **c.** A person, often a prostitute, who is hired to spend time with another as a companion. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2021, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-who-avoid-women-at-work-because-of-fear-of-alleged-reports-of-sexual-harassment/949906/288 "2021-09-07T22:09:22Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > Like, if someone goes to a mutual manager or HR and says “Hey, [seemingly innocuous behavior] from my co-worker makes me uncomfortable, could you ask him to stop?” I speak for myself only, I would prefer that the first ask is to me directly. If, as you write, I ignore you - go right over my head. Full disclosure, I _am_ the manager at my workstation - but in any harassment situation, I would want to be asked directly if possible before involving the authorities / my superior. In general only involve authorities at the outset when there is danger of bodily harm. This opinion runs pretty deep, it goes all the way back to childhood tattle-tales and codes of honor. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2021, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-who-avoid-women-at-work-because-of-fear-of-alleged-reports-of-sexual-harassment/949906/289 "2021-09-07T22:15:13Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Every now and then, I would see a coworker show up to a corporate function with a date who they would introduce as “friend”, never seemed to know much about each other or have much of a backstory, and often spoke in an Eastern European accent. I always just assumed it was an escort (or prostitute). Ha! Remember when Boston Blackie (Daffy Duck) delivered Peter Lorre an ‘Acme House Instant Girl’? ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2021, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-who-avoid-women-at-work-because-of-fear-of-alleged-reports-of-sexual-harassment/949906/290 "2021-09-07T22:27:20Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > The very reasonable policy (imo) I observe in the workplace is: > > 1. never touch a woman, ever > 2. never comment on her appearance or clothing > 3. never meet with a woman in a place where others can’t see our feet > 4. avoid overfamiliarity or anything resembling innuendo > 5. no consuming alcohol around women, or socializing with women who are consuming alcohol > > I don’t think that puts any appreciable constraint on anyone’s career. If it does, folks will just have to accept my apologies for prioritizing the safety of my own career. > > That being said, I _strongly_ suspect some of the guys mentioned in the OP are just using caution as an excuse to be exclusionary. There’s a difference between avoiding women in potentially compromising situations, and just avoiding women as a general category. If you are a touchy-feely kind of person, especially a boss whose entire motivation for being your own boss is to work exclusively with friends who you can be intimate with outside of work, rules 1, 4, and 5 can be dealbreakers. I don’t drink alcohol, even as a guy I imagine that would close some doors for me in the business world. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Wrenching\_Spanners](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ecb155/32.png) [@Wrenching\_Spanners](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wrenching_Spanners)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2021, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-who-avoid-women-at-work-because-of-fear-of-alleged-reports-of-sexual-harassment/949906/292 "2021-09-08T11:02:48Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > > [@msmith537](#): > > > > Who asks random people of any gender to lunch? > > That’s what i wondered, too. Back when I wasn’t working from home. New peer-level male employee joins the team, and I’m going to the food court to buy lunch - I’ll ask him if he wants to come along because a) it’s an easy way to be friendly and b) I sympathize that it can be awkward getting around on your first few days at a new site. New peer-level female employee joins the team, and I’m going to the food court to buy lunch - unless I’m 100% sure my invitation won’t be seen as my hitting on her, I don’t ask her if she wants to come along. ---
**Author:** ![not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_what_you_d_expect/32/3246_2.png) [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_what_you_d_expect)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2021, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-who-avoid-women-at-work-because-of-fear-of-alleged-reports-of-sexual-harassment/949906/293 "2021-09-08T11:45:25Z")
How would you be 100% sure? Couldn’t the male also falsely accuse you of hitting on him? Or doing something else inappropriate? I get that it can be tricky, but man the obstacles that are put in our way, is very frustrating sometimes. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2021, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-who-avoid-women-at-work-because-of-fear-of-alleged-reports-of-sexual-harassment/949906/294 "2021-09-08T11:55:56Z")
I always invited a new employee out to lunch. Never considered the gender. That’s not random at all. When i was new at my current job and a guy asked me out to lunch i assumed it was because i was new. (It turned out it was more because he wanted to come out as gay, and felt that was more appropriate at lunch. But i accepted the invitation assuming it was nothing more than my being new.) ---
**Author:** ![Wrenching\_Spanners](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ecb155/32.png) [@Wrenching\_Spanners](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wrenching_Spanners)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2021, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-who-avoid-women-at-work-because-of-fear-of-alleged-reports-of-sexual-harassment/949906/295 "2021-09-08T12:51:15Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > It’s also telling that such men often get insulted if women “take enormous precautions” (or any detectable precautions at all, even) against the possibility of being harassed or assaulted by them. > > Women are expected to perpetually put up with and compensate for the not insignificant risk of sexual harassment, assault, etc., without causing any inconvenience or disadvantage to anybody else. My perspective, as a middle-aged man, is that I don’t want to be seen as a man that a woman needs to “take enormous precautions” against. And it makes me less friendly, and less spontaneous. I frequently have to work late. When I was going into the office, I’d often be in the office after-hours by myself, but occasionally I’d have a colleague who was also working late, and who I knew only casually. And it definitely felt different if it was a man I was alone in the office with, versus a woman. Take something as simple as asking “Are you finishing up soon?” when I’m nearly finished. I expect a man to interpret that as me being friendly, and that if he says yes, we’ll coordinate leaving at the same time and walk to the train station together. If I ask that same question to a woman, I hope she has the same interpretation. But I’m aware that she has to consider that I’m trying to get her out of the office alone with me. In that case I would (and have) ask the question anyway, aware that if she wants to be cautious, all she has to do is wait for me to leave first. But I can see why other men would avoid the situation because they didn’t want to seem creepy. ---
**Author:** ![Wrenching\_Spanners](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ecb155/32.png) [@Wrenching\_Spanners](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wrenching_Spanners)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2021, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-who-avoid-women-at-work-because-of-fear-of-alleged-reports-of-sexual-harassment/949906/296 "2021-09-08T14:21:52Z")
> [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](#): > > How would you be 100% sure? Couldn’t the male also falsely accuse you of hitting on him? Or doing something else inappropriate? I get that it can be tricky, but man the obstacles that are put in our way, is very frustrating sometimes. For a man, I’d presume he’d recognise that I’m heterosexual, especially if he’s gay. I’ve had gay teammates, but none that I’ve realised, at the time they joined my team, that they were gay. If there was a lot of noise about gay men being sexually harassed by their heterosexual male co-workers, then I probably wouldn’t invite an obviously gay male new co-worker to go to the food court with me. For a woman, if we’d been working closely for a few hours and she seemed comfortable and confident working with me, then I’d feel sure she’d recognise that an invitation to walk to the food court was a friendly gesture, and not a come-on. But it usually takes a few weeks to build up that sort of rapport, rather than a couple of days. It seems to me that the message is to avoid borderline actions and behaviours, but the border between men and women is different than the border between men, and also more ambiguous. If I’m reviewing documents with a young male colleague, and I suggest we do so over coffee instead of in a meeting room, I don’t have to worry if I could be perceived as a creepy older man. With a younger female colleague, unless we’ve developed a strong working relationship, I would worry about coming across that way. So I’d stick to the meeting room, or try to work quietly at one of our desks. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2021, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-who-avoid-women-at-work-because-of-fear-of-alleged-reports-of-sexual-harassment/949906/297 "2021-09-08T14:59:31Z")
Alright, I reconsidered some things that I said. I concede that some of my takes in this thread have not been great. I have some outdated habits and anxieties left over from a particular work environment in a different time, and maybe these need revisiting. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2021, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-who-avoid-women-at-work-because-of-fear-of-alleged-reports-of-sexual-harassment/949906/298 "2021-09-08T15:07:28Z")
Thank you for that; and for publicly saying so. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2021, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-who-avoid-women-at-work-because-of-fear-of-alleged-reports-of-sexual-harassment/949906/299 "2021-09-08T15:50:02Z")
> [@Wrenching\_Spanners](#): > > It seems to me that the message is to avoid borderline actions and behaviours, but the border between men and women is different than the border between men, and also more ambiguous. If I’m reviewing documents with a young male colleague, and I suggest we do so over coffee instead of in a meeting room, I don’t have to worry if I could be perceived as a creepy older man. With a younger female colleague, unless we’ve developed a strong working relationship, I would worry about coming across that way. So I’d stick to the meeting room, or try to work quietly at one of our desks. This isn’t one-directional, though. I also don’t want to be perceived as “coming on” to a dude, when I am an old married woman, and I’ve adjusted my actions accordingly. I’ve known men who are very quick to assume that a woman who was only being friendly was “hitting on them” and who were happy to gossip about that. If she’s unattractive, there’s an element of mockery, for added fun. This can absolutely be professionally damaging. Anxiety about being formally accused of sexual impropriety may be a special burden of men, but once you get into the more vague “I wouldn’t want her to think I was flirting with her”, that’s just everyone. I go to the AP Reading every year: this is like summer camp for English teachers. 1500 of us sit in a big room at silent tables scoring papers from 8-5 for seven days straight, and then we burst out onto the town. Almost everyone is flying solo. There’s lots of spontaneous dinner and drink invitations. There have been many times over the years when I’ve made a friend, or the start of a friend, at my table, but not asked him if he wanted a drink after work because I didn’t want it to come across as a pass (even though it absolutely would not have been–old married woman). I don’t think that’s a gendered issue. ---
**Author:** ![echoreply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/echoreply/32/3641_2.png) [@echoreply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/echoreply)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2021, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-who-avoid-women-at-work-because-of-fear-of-alleged-reports-of-sexual-harassment/949906/300 "2021-09-08T17:36:14Z")
One way to keep somebody of either gender from thinking you’re hitting on them, is to not hit on them. A lunch invitation is easy to misinterpret, but if the actual lunch proceeds with no hitting then everybody will know the invitation was friendly. If the invitation is declined, then a series of future interactions with no hitting, will help to categorize the next lunch invitation as friendly. Yes, lots of men (and probably women) can be confused by friendly attention from somebody of their preferred gender into thinking that person is interested in them. If this is a work colleague, then reciprocate friendly attention with friendly responses, and don’t escalate to hitting. If you don’t know how to interact with women (or men) without hitting on them, then spend some time on self improvement. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2021, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-who-avoid-women-at-work-because-of-fear-of-alleged-reports-of-sexual-harassment/949906/301 "2021-09-08T18:19:10Z")
> [@echoreply](#): > > Yes, lots of men (and probably women) can be confused by friendly attention from somebody of their preferred gender into thinking that person is interested in them. If this is a work colleague, then reciprocate friendly attention with friendly responses, and don’t escalate to hitting. > > If you don’t know how to interact with women (or men) without hitting on them, then spend some time on self improvement. > [@MandaJo](#): > > I’ve known men who are very quick to assume that a woman who was only being friendly was “hitting on them” and who were happy to gossip about that. If she’s unattractive, there’s an element of mockery, for added fun. This can absolutely be professionally damaging. What MandaJo’s describing is a real thing, and may have nothing whatsoever to do with the fact that the woman’s neither hitting on the man, nor doing anything that could reasonably be interpreted as hitting on the man. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-who-avoid-women-at-work-because-of-fear-of-alleged-reports-of-sexual-harassment/949906.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-who-avoid-women-at-work-because-of-fear-of-alleged-reports-of-sexual-harassment/949906.md?page=16)