# Men who avoid women at work because of fear of alleged reports of sexual harassment **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 1, 2021, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-who-avoid-women-at-work-because-of-fear-of-alleged-reports-of-sexual-harassment/949906 "2021-09-01T15:02:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2021, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-who-avoid-women-at-work-because-of-fear-of-alleged-reports-of-sexual-harassment/949906/101 "2021-09-03T01:50:31Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > and not to speak for Kimstu, but she was talking about “formerly oblivious men,” and I’m not sure you were one of the folks she was talking about. Ooooooo, ISWYDT. 😄 ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2021, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-who-avoid-women-at-work-because-of-fear-of-alleged-reports-of-sexual-harassment/949906/102 "2021-09-03T02:20:33Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > . Then one warm day in late spring she came in wearing a blouse that, well, showed an awful lot lf cleavage. My eyes popped. I am sure she noticed it, but neither of us said a word I worked in an office that was hiring, and a good looking young woman came in to be interviewed, showing a lot of cleavage and most of a tattoo. She caught the office manager looking at the tattoo during the interview. He was gay, and not used to being caught looking at breasts, or at avoiding being caught doing so, and was _extremely_ embarrassed. He was blushing again just telling us about it weeks later. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2021, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-who-avoid-women-at-work-because-of-fear-of-alleged-reports-of-sexual-harassment/949906/103 "2021-09-03T02:29:13Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > What it’s doing is getting us to think “So-and-so is a bitch” and just avoiding them completely (even in a professional context, as much as possible) which isn’t helpful. The thing is, these young women seem angry at _everything_ Are you sure they’re not just angry at you? If your reaction to thinking that a woman seems angry when it’s not instantly clear to you why is to conclude that she’s a bitch to be avoided even in a professional context which calls for you to be around her: I’ve got to consider the possibility that the reason you think they’re angry at everything is because they’re always angry around you. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2021, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-who-avoid-women-at-work-because-of-fear-of-alleged-reports-of-sexual-harassment/949906/104 "2021-09-03T02:31:53Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > I’ve got to consider the possibility that the reason you think they’re angry at everything is because they’re always angry around you. I guess he’ll just have to avoid you. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2021, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-who-avoid-women-at-work-because-of-fear-of-alleged-reports-of-sexual-harassment/949906/105 "2021-09-03T02:33:07Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > Are you sure they’re not just angry at you? I’ve seen it directed at other people as well; it’s not just me. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2021, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-who-avoid-women-at-work-because-of-fear-of-alleged-reports-of-sexual-harassment/949906/106 "2021-09-03T02:42:48Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > It’s okay to be irked at double standards, and it’s okay to articulate in a constructive way what it is about them that irks you. There is absolutely nothing wrong with your saying to a female HR staffer something like “You know, your having a beefcake calendar in the office makes me a bit uncomfortable, not because I think there’s anything wrong with your appreciating buff dudes, but because I don’t think a guy would get away with putting up a similar calendar with women on it in the office. If a new guy saw your calendar and thought it would be fine to put up a cheesecake calendar in the office, wouldn’t he get in some trouble for it? And wouldn’t that be kind of unfair?” Or, I could be a normal person about it and just ignore it IRL, because complaining to HR is a dick move that’ll cause a bunch of discontent in the office for not actual reason. > [@Kimstu](#): > > Those of us who have now become the senior people ourselves have a responsibililty to figure out these issues to make life easier for the younger folks (of whatever gender) coming up, IMHO. We have a responsibility to sort out genuine issues affecting workplace culture and help our teams succeed, not facilitate entitled Gen Z whining about how they can’t bring their dog to work or didn’t get their project element completed by deadline because they’re anxious about the impending climate disaster or whatever. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2021, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-who-avoid-women-at-work-because-of-fear-of-alleged-reports-of-sexual-harassment/949906/107 "2021-09-03T02:53:16Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > complaining to HR is a dick move that’ll cause a bunch of discontent in the office for not actual reason I was suggesting that you might gently raise the issue in conversation with a female HR staffer about her own beefcake calendar, not about a calendar put up by one of your co-workers. Would that gentle inquiry really “cause a bunch of discontent in the office”? > [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > We have a responsibility to sort out genuine issues affecting workplace culture and help our teams succeed, not facilitate entitled Gen Z whining about how they can’t bring their dog to work or didn’t get their project element completed by deadline because they’re anxious about the impending climate disaster or whatever Gosh, it just seems odder and odder that any young women at your workplace would seem to you to be acting angry or “narky/snide/sarcastic”. When you’re treating them so respectfully and working so hard to help them succeed and all. I’m not suggesting that you’re obligated to encourage people to bring their dogs to work or miss deadlines. But I’m not entirely convinced that the whole problem is actually the sole fault of “angry young women” gratuitously being “a bitch” and their “general bitchiness and unpleasantness” and “entitled Gen Z whining”. I mean, they’re not the ones we’re getting the whining from here. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2021, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-who-avoid-women-at-work-because-of-fear-of-alleged-reports-of-sexual-harassment/949906/108 "2021-09-03T03:33:14Z")
Perhaps my experience was atypical. But I had a long career in management. I had literally hundreds of people working for me at any given time and thousands over the course of my career, a substantial number of whom were women. I also had female supervisors and female colleagues who were at the same level I was. But I never felt I needed to avoid female employees (which would have been difficult anyway) or adopt any special practices when working around a female employee. And I never had any problems with female employees due to their gender nor was I ever accused of sexual harassment. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2021, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-who-avoid-women-at-work-because-of-fear-of-alleged-reports-of-sexual-harassment/949906/109 "2021-09-03T03:50:12Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > I mean, they’re not the ones we’re getting the whining from here. That’s because there’s almost literally no-one on the boards under 30. I don’t think you or many other people here appreciate the effect that has on collective attitudes to stuff (at least as expressed). ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2021, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-who-avoid-women-at-work-because-of-fear-of-alleged-reports-of-sexual-harassment/949906/110 "2021-09-03T04:02:09Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > there’s almost literally no-one on the boards under 30. I don’t think you or many other people here appreciate the effect that has on collective attitudes to stuff Hmmm. Personally, as a college faculty member who is constantly talking to people under 30 and hearing their conversations with each other, I get the impression that I accumulate quite a bit of information about young people’s “collective attitudes to stuff”. Of course, attitudes at your workplace could very well be different from the ones I’m seeing. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2021, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-who-avoid-women-at-work-because-of-fear-of-alleged-reports-of-sexual-harassment/949906/111 "2021-09-03T04:31:48Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > What it’s doing is getting us to think “So-and-so is a bitch” and just avoiding them completely (even in a professional context, as much as possible) which isn’t helpful. The thing is, these young women seem angry at _everything_ , and it’s coming across as general bitchiness and unpleasantness even when it’s totally unwarranted (ie, directed at everyone, including people who aren’t being sexist boors or acting like a real life Stan Smith). The women I knew weren’t angry at everything, they were angry at stuff that today you wouldn’t be surprised that they were angry about. Back then lots of men no doubt had problems understanding why anyone would be angry with their sexist comments. And any man expecting that people around him would respond to his obnoxiousness with sweetness and light was going to be sorely disappointed. And probably wasn’t going to make it through MIT. And, BTW, my year at least I think it is safe to say the women were on average smarter than the men, hardly surprising given greater selectivity. But the Student Government issued guide for freshmen had a little section denigrating MIT women. Not all the sexism was subtle. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2021, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-who-avoid-women-at-work-because-of-fear-of-alleged-reports-of-sexual-harassment/949906/112 "2021-09-03T04:44:20Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Hmmm. Personally, as a college faculty member who is constantly talking to people under 30 and hearing their conversations with each other, I get the impression that I accumulate quite a bit of information about young people’s “collective attitudes to stuff”. Of course, attitudes at your workplace could very well be different from the ones I’m seeing. I would imagine they are. And while we both work with significant numbers of younger people, that still doesn’t change the fact there aren’t any of them (or more than one or two) here on the boards to provide some first-hand thoughts on the subject (or any subject at all), which has wider issues for general discussion elements. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2021, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-who-avoid-women-at-work-because-of-fear-of-alleged-reports-of-sexual-harassment/949906/113 "2021-09-03T04:51:25Z")
The OP herself falls into that category. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2021, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-who-avoid-women-at-work-because-of-fear-of-alleged-reports-of-sexual-harassment/949906/114 "2021-09-03T04:51:35Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > But the Student Government issued guide for freshmen had a little section denigrating MIT women. Yeah, I remember the old song lyrics: “My girl’s from MIT, she is a travesty, Girls who go for engineering Are not so hot-appearing”. People just get tired of the contempt, you know? ---
**Author:** ![Tusculan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecd19e/32.png) [@Tusculan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tusculan)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2021, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-who-avoid-women-at-work-because-of-fear-of-alleged-reports-of-sexual-harassment/949906/115 "2021-09-03T05:49:01Z")
About men touching other men: it’s common, but I think it is a means of asserting dominance or solidarity. Men don’t slap a large strong man (think The Rock!) on the back if they aren’t friends. The trope is even seen in movies where a guy starts to move for a back slap and holds back for fear of offending the strong man. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2021, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-who-avoid-women-at-work-because-of-fear-of-alleged-reports-of-sexual-harassment/949906/116 "2021-09-03T05:51:02Z")
Phrase this a different way. If a colleague states that a meeting was an “old boy’s network” with zero examples, I interpret that meaning as an unfounded smear meant to damage my reputation or get me fired. Be specific. State specific examples of what “old boy’s network” was exhibited in the meeting. Otherwise, it is akin to hearing “my colleage dropped the n-bomb in conversation” with the sub-text that he’s a racist piece of crap. OK, maybe poor analogy. Someone saying the “old boy’s network” to HR or to a senior level manager, is levelling an emotional accusation that I’m a sexist a-hole sans evidence or even examples. IMHO that is a total dick move. I have no choice but to go to defcon 5 to make sure I keep my job from an unfounded (IMHO) accusation. I’m totally fine with “you said xxxx, and it made me uncomfortable.” That’s open and honest communication, and I self reflect and more than willing to change to not make others uncomfortable. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2021, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-who-avoid-women-at-work-because-of-fear-of-alleged-reports-of-sexual-harassment/949906/117 "2021-09-03T06:53:48Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Yeah, I remember the old song lyrics: “My girl’s from MIT, she is a travesty, Girls who go for engineering Are not so hot-appearing”. > > People just get tired of the contempt, you know? That I never heard. Not like we men from MIT were so hot appearing either. But what I was referring to was worse. It said that “coeds” (what MIT women were called back then) were rumored to be various bad things. In reality, it said, they are worse. So not exactly surprising that freshman women started off with some anger. I can hardly imagine how much worse it was 10 years earlier. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2021, 10:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-who-avoid-women-at-work-because-of-fear-of-alleged-reports-of-sexual-harassment/949906/118 "2021-09-03T10:35:48Z")
> [@China\_Guy](#): > > Be specific. State specific examples of what “old boy’s network” was exhibited in the meeting. Otherwise, it is akin to hearing “my colleage dropped the n-bomb in conversation” with the sub-text that he’s a racist piece of crap. OK, maybe poor analogy. Oh–you’re analogizing _being accused_ of being an old boys network to _being accused_ of using a racial epithet, not to the use itself. That makes way more sense. Thank you for clarifying! ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2021, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-who-avoid-women-at-work-because-of-fear-of-alleged-reports-of-sexual-harassment/949906/119 "2021-09-03T11:12:17Z")
I’ve encountered almost none of this. No men afraid to interact with women, no inappropriate calendars of either sex, no angry young women. I’ve heard sexist comments, but rarely. Nothing that would qualify as sexual harassment. Am I just lucky, am I oblivious, or is it that there are many people who have no issues, but they don’t bother posting in threads like this? ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2021, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-who-avoid-women-at-work-because-of-fear-of-alleged-reports-of-sexual-harassment/949906/120 "2021-09-03T11:12:17Z")
> [@China\_Guy](#): > > I have no choice but to go to defcon 5 to make sure I keep my job from an unfounded (IMHO) accusation. So, the lowest state of readiness? > **[DEFCON | Levels](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DEFCON#Levels)** > > Defense readiness conditions vary between many commands and have changed over time, and the United States Department of Defense uses exercise terms when referring to the DEFCON levels during exercises. This is to preclude the possibility of confusing exercise commands with actual operational commands. > On January 12, 1966, NORAD "proposed the adoption of the readiness conditions of the JCS system", and information about the levels was declassified in 2006: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-who-avoid-women-at-work-because-of-fear-of-alleged-reports-of-sexual-harassment/949906.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-who-avoid-women-at-work-because-of-fear-of-alleged-reports-of-sexual-harassment/949906.md?page=7)