# Men who avoid women at work because of fear of alleged reports of sexual harassment **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 1, 2021, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-who-avoid-women-at-work-because-of-fear-of-alleged-reports-of-sexual-harassment/949906 "2021-09-01T15:02:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Somethingwitty1](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/somethingwitty1/32/8899_2.png) [@Somethingwitty1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Somethingwitty1)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2021, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-who-avoid-women-at-work-because-of-fear-of-alleged-reports-of-sexual-harassment/949906/161 "2021-09-05T06:05:06Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > And a lot of people assume by default that if there’s a woman somewhere in a workplace, those must be part of her job duties. It’s not just about what they instinctively expect of women psychologically: it’s that they look at a woman in a workplace and part of their brain just automatically clicks on “receptionist”. I must have misinterpreted this. ---
**Author:** ![HelenGawn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a88e4f/32.png) [@HelenGawn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HelenGawn)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2021, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-who-avoid-women-at-work-because-of-fear-of-alleged-reports-of-sexual-harassment/949906/162 "2021-09-05T07:38:06Z")
I’ll go one better. I took my car to a shop where a neighbor worked. We were friendly but not hang-out-together friends. When I went back I discovered there was much more work needed than I expected. Neighbor Bill walked with me over to the mechanic who was working on the car. That guy carefully explained _to Bill_ what was needed and why. Bill, BTW, was also a mechanic. ---
**Author:** ![yarblek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/71e660/32.png) [@yarblek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yarblek)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2021, 9:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-who-avoid-women-at-work-because-of-fear-of-alleged-reports-of-sexual-harassment/949906/163 "2021-09-05T09:20:50Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > Aren’t escort services mostly about sex or that it usually also includes sex as part of the evening? An [escort is just a (type of) prostitute](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskAnEscort/) so you are correct. They just advertise more services like ‘girlfriend experiences’ and such. I would find it incredulous to think pretty much any escort could primarily make a living _without_ offering sexual services in addition to non-sexual ones. They may exist but I imagine they are exceedingly rare. Of course, a client doesn’t _have_ to (always) partake in those sexual services if they don’t want to and most escorts would probably be happy to oblige. ---
**Author:** ![yarblek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/71e660/32.png) [@yarblek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yarblek)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2021, 9:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-who-avoid-women-at-work-because-of-fear-of-alleged-reports-of-sexual-harassment/949906/164 "2021-09-05T09:33:34Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > These delicate men who don’t want to be alone with a woman, for fear of being unjustly accused of something, are inevitably the same guys who’s egos are deeply offended if a pretty young girl hesitates to get into an elevator with them, or chooses not to sit beside them on the subway. > > Delicate creatures with delicate egos. So if a (burly) black man always or often gets a fearful response from white women for simply existing in their vicinity, they should be okay with this? How do you disentangle this (potentially) racist, and therefore unjustified, fear from the apparently justified (but still sexist, IMO) one? ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2021, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-who-avoid-women-at-work-because-of-fear-of-alleged-reports-of-sexual-harassment/949906/165 "2021-09-05T10:34:01Z")
I don’t worry about false allegations of sexual harassment because people can say whatever they want and there’s no controlling what someone says. I’m sure that there are instances of malicious false allegations but they’re also probably exceedingly rare. What’s more likely is that, in cases of false allegations, behavior or speech is misconstrued, and that happens when one or even both parties aren’t thinking about how the things they say or do can be interpreted by other people. So, no dick jokes in the office. So touching beyond offering a nice, firm handshake. Definitely be mindful of spending too much time alone in close proximity to someone in one-on-one contact situations. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2021, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-who-avoid-women-at-work-because-of-fear-of-alleged-reports-of-sexual-harassment/949906/166 "2021-09-05T11:01:32Z")
One thing I’ve noticed before in these threads is that there is are widely different opinions about whether or not being “talked to” is, in itself, being disciplined and a big deal. Like, if someone goes to a mutual manager or HR and says “Hey, [seemingly innocuous behavior] from my co-worker makes me uncomfortable, could you ask him to stop?” there seem to be some people who see that as a preventative measure, and others who see it as a career ending allegation of sexual harassment. I’m not unsympathetic. I HATE being “talked to” and any time I get anything approaching official criticism, I either want to never show up again, or write a 3 page email explaining why I was confused, how my motives were pure, and how it will never happen again, all in excruciating detail. I get that. But at the same time, I think there needs to be some way to communicate that sort of discomfort that is a little more formal than directly asking the person to knock it off. For one thing, some people just don’t hear it when told directly. It’s very frustrating. Or they keep forgetting, or don’t believe you mean it. Other people get very defensive or angry or offended, especially if it’s a gender/sex thing. This isn’t just about gender issues: it’s the coworker with BO, the one that roller skates down the hallways, the one that talks about politics all the time and doesn’t notice everyone else just gets silent and uncomfortable. I think there needs to be a level of “being talked to” that’s not “being accused”. I think there is a level. But if you see “being talked to” as “being accused”, it makes more sense to me why someone might be scared to be around a woman. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2021, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-who-avoid-women-at-work-because-of-fear-of-alleged-reports-of-sexual-harassment/949906/167 "2021-09-05T13:05:16Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > [N]o touching beyond offering a nice, firm handshake. In the 80’s … within a single week … two things happened: - I was angrily chastised for not shaking a woman’s hand with enough grip strength. Mea culpa on that one; - I was virtually yelled at for shaking ‘the next’ woman’s hand _too_ firmly. She had literally just had a manicure. > [@Somethingwitty1](#): > > It is a minefield. It can be 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2021, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-who-avoid-women-at-work-because-of-fear-of-alleged-reports-of-sexual-harassment/949906/168 "2021-09-05T13:18:03Z")
> [@Somethingwitty1](#): > > “Cute Skirt”? He was leering at me. I would never comment on any item of clothing a female employee or co-worker was wearing > > “Pat on the back” He violated me physically. Don’t touch female employees. > > “Shoulder rub”. Damn near sexual assault. > > “Asked me to lunch”. He asked me for a date. > > I have mentored many a female employee, including millennials and Gen Z. Keep it professional and you won’t have a problem. But you do have to be careful. > > None of the above would be considered problematic if it were male-male interaction. Wait, what? If my male boss told me my slacks were “cute,” or gave me a shoulder rub, it would freak me the fuck out. A male co-worker who did the same things, I would assume he was hitting on me and be really unhappy. A female co-worker who did the same things I would also really suspect was hitting on me and it would not be great. I’m not seeing the double standard you’re describing. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2021, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-who-avoid-women-at-work-because-of-fear-of-alleged-reports-of-sexual-harassment/949906/169 "2021-09-05T13:35:14Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > No personal experience here, either, but from what I read, it’s a very high percentage. Hostess clubs are not. There are rent a woman for the whole night places in Japan as well, but mostly you go to the establishment there and the women stay there the whole time with no back rooms. In fact, it cost extra to have the same woman stay at your table the whole time. Yeah, I’m pretty sure it’s close to 100%. Here is the US, “escort service” is understood to mean “high-end prostitute”. At least that’s what I’ve always assumed. Every now and then, I would see a coworker show up to a corporate function with a date who they would introduce as “friend”, never seemed to know much about each other or have much of a backstory, and often spoke in an Eastern European accent. I always just assumed it was an escort (or prostitute). ---
**Author:** ![Bootb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19b73/32.png) [@Bootb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootb)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2021, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-who-avoid-women-at-work-because-of-fear-of-alleged-reports-of-sexual-harassment/949906/170 "2021-09-05T14:43:41Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > These delicate men who don’t want to be alone with a woman, for fear of being unjustly accused of something, are inevitably the same guys who’s egos are deeply offended if a pretty young girl hesitates to get into an elevator with them, or chooses not to sit beside them on the subway. If you ever decide to take a vacation from your fantasy life, I recommend the real world. In it, you will find that ego is totally and utterly irrelevant to the thought process of considering the potential consequences of a false accusation that might land a person in jail. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2021, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-who-avoid-women-at-work-because-of-fear-of-alleged-reports-of-sexual-harassment/949906/171 "2021-09-05T14:53:43Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I have yet to run across any actual accusations of sexual harassment that arise from something as innocuous as a shoulder pat, or “I like your new hairdo”, etc., in real life. Maybe that has happened, somewhere, to someone, but it doesn’t seem like something to worry about. Seems more likely to me that some harassers or clueless men are lying or exaggerating because they are annoyed by changes in society, at least for the bulk of such anecdotal reports. I know two. 1. a colleague of my husband (then a college prof) was accused of sexual impropriety with a female student. My husband said the student was crazy, and she’d chased after him for a awhile, and he was very careful to never talk to her when they weren’t in earshot of witnesses. His friend, distracted by his engagement, was less cautious. The friend ended up being told to take a new job at a different school (that the college fund for him) because the college thought the suit would run his career, as well as be bad pr for them. 2. my brother was going on a business trip with a female colleague. The admin asked him if he wanted to take the same flight as she was in, and he said, “yes”. She got wind of it and accused him of sexual harassment. She also made up some stuff that had no basis in fact. She was eventually fired for lying about other things, and he was eventually cleared. But it delayed a promotion for a year. > [@Odesio](#): > > > [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > > > I wouldn’t avoid women, but I might try to avoid women who seemed unhinged or malicious. Fortunately, not something I’ve seen personally. > > But you’d probably avoid men who seemed unhinged or malicious as well, right? Yes. And both those women were unhinged and malicious. And the only two people i have personally avoided in my career due to that sort of thing were men. > [@DMC](#): > > I’m not a woman, but I can’t imagine being constantly concerned about being raped in a corporate office environment. I’m pretty sure the thought wouldn’t cross my mind. I am a woman, and i never worry about being raped or assaulted at work. And i never have. There are tons of people around. I really can’t imagine it happening. It’s perhaps relevant that all our offices have glass walls or large windows between the office and the hallway. But honestly, the vast majority of men I’ve worked with have been decent and professional people, and the thought has never crossed my mind at any work site. I did once have an uncomfortable and somewhat ambiguously sexual experience with a drunken manager at a party. It was incredibly disturbing, and led to my being reassigned to a job i didn’t want. But it didn’t come close to physical assault. > [@msmith537](#): > > Who asks random people of any gender to lunch? That’s what i wondered, too. > [@Kimstu](#): > > Speaking as a late-fifties decidedly no longer young woman: Buddy, we were always angry at the constant shitstream of systemic sexism we had to cope with in workplaces and everywhere else. Speaking as a late-fifties woman, i am WAY less angry and more relaxed than i was when i was younger and hotter. And mostly it’s because society has gotten better. > [@DemonTree](#): > > Am I just lucky, am I oblivious, or is it that there are many people who have no issues, but they don’t bother posting in threads like this? Probably a little of all three, but mostly the third. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2021, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-who-avoid-women-at-work-because-of-fear-of-alleged-reports-of-sexual-harassment/949906/172 "2021-09-05T14:57:37Z")
> [@Bootb](#): > > > [@elbows](#): > > > > These delicate men who don’t want to be alone with a woman, for fear of being unjustly accused of something, are inevitably the same guys who’s egos are deeply offended if a pretty young girl hesitates to get into an elevator with them, or chooses not to sit beside them on the subway. > > If you ever decide to take a vacation from your fantasy life, I recommend the real world. In it, you will find that ego is totally and utterly irrelevant to the thought process of considering the potential consequences of a false accusation that might land a person in jail. A man can accuse you of raping him. A person of any gender can accuse you of stealing their stuff. There is no way to completely avoid the risk of a false accusation. You CAN avoid the risk of a mistaken accusation of sexual impropriety by treating your female colleagues professionally. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2021, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-who-avoid-women-at-work-because-of-fear-of-alleged-reports-of-sexual-harassment/949906/173 "2021-09-05T15:00:43Z")
I think I’m a little more cynical than you. I think men actually do understand what’s appropriate and what isn’t. I’ve long stopped buying the “innocent misunderstanding” line. These guys know they’re being inappropriate - they just don’t want to stop so they adopt a sort of willful blindness, then blame the woman for ……misunderstanding. “I didn’t think hiding a sex toy inside a piece of equipment she was going to open up and service ( because when you replace a critical component with a sex toy the equipment isn’t going to pass testing) was inappropriate. I thought it would be funny. She has no sense of humor.” This is another one that really happened. I’ve gone into situations where I knew the guy I was working with had ulterior motives and I tailored all my verbal and written communication towards defusing those motives - for example, refusing a business dinner because “I’ve got a lot going on and I’m dedicating my evenings to my personal life”. No one EVER got the hint. Not once. Now, 90-95% of the men I’ve worked with were good guys that not only didn’t pull this crap, they were my allies against the guys that did. But it only takes a couple of guys that act like this to cause a problem in the workplace. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2021, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-who-avoid-women-at-work-because-of-fear-of-alleged-reports-of-sexual-harassment/949906/174 "2021-09-05T15:11:58Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > I am a woman, and i never worry about being raped or assaulted at work. And i never have. There are tons of people around. I really can’t imagine it happening. It’s perhaps relevant that all our offices have glass walls or large windows between the office and the hallway. But honestly, the vast majority of men I’ve worked with have been decent and professional people, and the thought has never crossed my mind at any work site. I think a lot of women do avoid working at the office late, where they might find themselves alone with men they don’t know well, or have to walk to their car in the dark in a situation that doesn’t seem safe. They may be more reluctant to travel. As far as being alone with men, it can be as much fear of inappropriate behavior as physical assault. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2021, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-who-avoid-women-at-work-because-of-fear-of-alleged-reports-of-sexual-harassment/949906/175 "2021-09-05T15:17:01Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > I think men actually do understand what’s appropriate and what isn’t. I’ve long stopped buying the “innocent misunderstanding” line. I totally agree, which is why I don’t worry about false allegations. I think most people, deep down, recognize when they are crossing boundaries; they just egotistically assume that their advances will be received well and don’t want to be told that what they’re doing is wrong. They feel entitled to engage in that behavior. But it’s not an issue of not knowing boundaries. In a lot of cases, offenders have probably been confronted with multiple complaints - either by the same employer or their previous ones. That said, there are some people who do occasionally get into trouble because they are not mindful that seemingly “harmless” comments or behaviors that were not intended to be injurious can be misinterpreted. But I agree - the number of guys who have been “misunderstood” are vastly outnumbered by the pricks who just didn’t want to take no for an answer. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2021, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-who-avoid-women-at-work-because-of-fear-of-alleged-reports-of-sexual-harassment/949906/176 "2021-09-05T15:23:42Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I have yet to run across any actual accusations of sexual harassment that arise from something as innocuous as a shoulder pat, or “I like your new hairdo”, etc., in real life. I had a friend that was investigated for sexual harrassment because a female coworker was walking by and heard the word “nipple”. FTR he was talking to a friend and the context was a baby-bottle nipple. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2021, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-who-avoid-women-at-work-because-of-fear-of-alleged-reports-of-sexual-harassment/949906/177 "2021-09-05T16:04:22Z")
The very reasonable policy (imo) I observe in the workplace is: 1. never touch a woman, ever 2. never comment on her appearance or clothing 3. never meet with a woman in a place where others can’t see our feet 4. avoid overfamiliarity or anything resembling innuendo 5. no consuming alcohol around women, or socializing with women who are consuming alcohol I don’t think that puts any appreciable constraint on anyone’s career. If it does, folks will just have to accept my apologies for prioritizing the safety of my own career. That being said, I _strongly_ suspect some of the guys mentioned in the OP are just using caution as an excuse to be exclusionary. There’s a difference between avoiding women in potentially compromising situations, and just avoiding women as a general category. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2021, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-who-avoid-women-at-work-because-of-fear-of-alleged-reports-of-sexual-harassment/949906/178 "2021-09-05T17:00:58Z")
Assuming that the investigation cleared him, would you consider this the system working, or not working? Like, does this illustrate how men are at constant risk of false accusation, or does it illustrate that yes, stupid misunderstandings can happen, but as long as you don’t do anything actually wrong, it’s okay? ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2021, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-who-avoid-women-at-work-because-of-fear-of-alleged-reports-of-sexual-harassment/949906/179 "2021-09-05T18:22:38Z")
> [@Somethingwitty1](#): > > Reading through this thread only reinforces my policy of avoiding anything remotely sexual. > > “Cute Skirt”? He was leering at me. I would never comment on any item of clothing a female employee or co-worker was wearing > > “Pat on the back” He violated me physically. Don’t touch female employees. > > “Shoulder rub”. Damn near sexual assault. > > “Asked me to lunch”. He asked me for a date. > > I have mentored many a female employee, including millennials and Gen Z. Keep it professional and you won’t have a problem. But you do have to be careful. > > None of the above would be considered problematic if it were male-male interaction. As a male, I assure you if another male coworker told me my outfit was “cute”, patted me on the back, and rubbed my shoulders, there would be a problem. As for asking a female coworker to lunch, drinks, etc, I’ve never found that “problematic”. Of course it depends on the context. “Hey do you want to grab lunch” as in down in the corporate cafeteria or the Weds food truck or whatever with someone from your team is fine, so long as you keep it to work or at least non-romantic stuff. “Hey I booked lunch for two at NoMad, do you want to split a bottle of wine with me?” not so much. ---
**Author:** ![Somethingwitty1](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/somethingwitty1/32/8899_2.png) [@Somethingwitty1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Somethingwitty1)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2021, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-who-avoid-women-at-work-because-of-fear-of-alleged-reports-of-sexual-harassment/949906/180 "2021-09-05T18:30:34Z")
The differing views on this subject in this thread illustrates my view that this topic is a “minefield” for men. I am not clear on the gender of all the posters. I am male. I am not a touchy feely person by nature. So I don’t go around giving back rubs to employees. Or Hug. Or comment on cute skirts. So that part is easy for me. I have had touchy feely bosses, male and female, who grab your shoulder, hug, etc. It was always uncomfortable for me. But as a male, I never felt I was being sexually harassed. I have gone to lunch with male and female co-workers. Hey Bob, ya wanna try that new Chinese place? Hey Jane, ya wanna try that new Swedish place? But I am definitely more conscious that Jane and I are work friends and nothing else. I am not gonna ask Susie, the new female who wears cute skirts, if she wants to have lunch. I don’t know if Susie is the type of Doper who just wants to be part of the gang, or is gonna think I’m hitting on her. So I err on the side of caution. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-who-avoid-women-at-work-because-of-fear-of-alleged-reports-of-sexual-harassment/949906.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/men-who-avoid-women-at-work-because-of-fear-of-alleged-reports-of-sexual-harassment/949906.md?page=10)