Is anonymous whistleblowing a possibility? Some places even have apps for that now.
The trouble I can see is a situation where there is nothing evidently actionably overt going on— say someone just does not like your face— and this affects your career. This can be exceedingly difficult to deal with.
There’s always going to be a bad egg. But from my experience I’ve had more sexual comments in all of my jobs. All of them, some of which I do absolutely nothing to ask for this behavior.
The problem is not women in the workplace. Avoiding women is a type of discrimination. This is equivalent to saying I’m avoiding people of color because I’m afraid they are going to shoot me.
If they’re punishing women by avoiding them, then yes they will achieve self-preservation, but they must get used to being “preserved”, and alone.
Agree. I think this is going to be one of those “talking past the other side” debates.
Both sides by and large agree on the same two things - men shouldn’t harass, and women shouldn’t falsely accuse. The problem comes when one side takes precautions against bad people that end up harming good people.
I’ve been retired for several years, so thank God, I don’t have to worry about this sort of thing in the workplace.
But I’m wondering… re my quote above, am I correct that these days even the latter statement (“that skirt looks cute”) is considered crossing a line? And that the territory on the offensive side of that line ranges from inappropriate to borderline offensive to blatant sexual harassment?
I got into a back-and-forth with another reader on WaPo a while ago, and she asserted that a man touching a woman’s arm (even accidentally) constituted not just inappropriate touching but sexual assault. 
I’m not saying we should go back to the Mad Men days (and I was a cute 20-year old working in a male-dominated organization in the mid-70s), but I can understand some men’s wariness in today’s workplace.
No, it’s the equivalent of saying you’re avoiding people of color because you’re afraid they’re going to accuse you of wanting to shoot them.
Not the same, but: I work at a university, and while I don’t avoid anyone, I never close the door of my office when meeting with a student (of any gender). This seems like common sense to me.
Scenario 1:
“That skirt looks cute.” “Thanks.”
Scenario 2:
“That skirt looks cute. on your thighs” (Looks up and down her body with googly eyes).
I think most women can tell the difference between a compliment or a creep.
Do you see men touching or pinching other men on the arm or back? I certainly have never seen it myself. Correct me if I’m wrong?
I suspect that this sort of thing is relatively rare but does happen.
I wouldn’t avoid women, but I might try to avoid women who seemed unhinged or malicious. Fortunately, not something I’ve seen personally.
If any of my female work colleagues become aware that I have a heterosexual orientation, it is either because we discussed the subject in a dry theoretical exploration of society and sexuality and it seemed relevant, or because they set out to find out themselves.
I’m not framing that as "how male people ought to behave, just identifying that as my context.
I could theoretically be accused falsely of sexual harassment in the same fashion that anyone else could be. It’s never happened and I’ve never worried about it.
Probably because being mistaken for intent to murder seems a bit less likely?
Seems like this is feeding a vicious cycle; they’re avoiding because of fear of assumptions; you’re making assumptions based on observed avoidance.
It is also natural: students are less likely to wander into your office when you sport the oak. They could knock, I suppose.
Okay. For some men that’s probably a good idea.
What have you experienced? Men keeping at arm’s length? Why is that a problem? How do we deal with what?
What is hindering career growth?
Perhaps this is what I’m looking for (the actual point of the thread). Are you saying that sexual harassers, after being told to stop the harassment, now refuse to assist the the person who was previously harassed with performing their job? If this person was in a role that was seen as supervisory to yours, then you possibly have a case of quid pro quo and/or retaliation harassment and should speak to a lawyer who specializes in that sort of thing.
I have yet to run across any actual accusations of sexual harassment that arise from something as innocuous as a shoulder pat, or “I like your new hairdo”, etc., in real life. Maybe that has happened, somewhere, to someone, but it doesn’t seem like something to worry about. Seems more likely to me that some harassers or clueless men are lying or exaggerating because they are annoyed by changes in society, at least for the bulk of such anecdotal reports.
Yes this happened on a BS level I have ever seen, but it’s once in a blue moon. You will be surprised what kind of weirdos are out there.
But the greater problem is when this movement becomes some sort of shield in which more and more men have decided to follow and completely disengage with women as all cost because of a irrational ‘fear’ that they will get reported.
Sexual assault is much more common than false accusations. How many women do you think are worried about their male bosses? How many have been taken aside and warned not to be alone with that guy? Alone at a party? Alone in the city? Alone after dark? Alone walking home? How many of those women have the luxury of allaying those fears by simple inaction? Inaction whose consequences are mostly felt by the other party, not themselves.
Yet I hear much mockery of women who consider all men potential rapists. Often that mockery comes from the same crowd that makes a big deal out of false accusations. What are we discussing here if not viewing all women as potential accusers?
This is me as well. I work in a female-dominated work place, so it’s not possible to avoid anyone if I want to get anything done. It’s not difficult to treat all your colleagues professionally and with respect, and if it’s not clear to someone what topics may be over the line, then the regularly scheduled workplace respect training we all have to do is not sinking-in, and that person should go work somewhere else IMHO.
The only time I feel a bit shy about this topic is in a more private situation where I may be sharing some personal info with someone when getting to know each other better (my company promotes this). Beyond superficial info like where you live, went to school, hobbies, how many kids, etc. the rest of their life is none of my business (and, likewise, my life is none of theirs).
As for touching, IMHO the only permissible location for a touch is a mutual hand-shake. I avoid hugs in the work place.
Obviously the second is off limits. But you didn’t answer my question: is the first one now considered off limits, too?
Oh God, yes! This is Texas, honey. Men slapping each other on the back, grabbing an arm, poking another guy in the chest, even putting an arm around another guy’s shoulder-- very common behavior.
I’m leaving this thread so y’all carry on without me.
Repeating: so glad I’m retired!
No, I’m very aware that there are a shit-ton of weirdos out there and also that women are far more likely to be a target of said weirdos.
This is where you lose me. I’m not saying that it’s not possible, but I’ve worked in companies large and small and I can’t remember a single one where a man ignoring all women would still be able to accomplish their job. Are these men avoiding you or avoiding all women? If it’s all women, what sort of work environment is it where they can still function?
I would assume that all women whose bosses sexually assault them worry about their male bosses. I would also assume that all women whose bosses don’t sexually assault them spend little time worrying about that sort of thing.
There are rational fears and irrational fears. It sure feels like there’s a little of both above.
All men are potential rapists in the same way as all women are potential rapists. I’m not a woman, but I can’t imagine being constantly concerned about being raped in a corporate office environment. I’m pretty sure the thought wouldn’t cross my mind.
False accusations are bad as they make it more difficult for valid accusations to be believed. I’m pretty sure they are also rare, so it’s not something I concern myself with at the office.
I’m still not sure what we’re discussing here. It seems to drift a bit. All women are potential accusers in the same way as all men are potential rapists and all women are potential rapists. Potential is an easy criteria to meet.
IMHO any comment about the way someone looks is off limits. I won’t even notice someone’s new haircut/style.
That’s what I understood to be the case these days.
Agreed. I’ve worked in a bunch of different environments in my adult work life from professional offices to warehouse/factories to retail and restaurants and it would never occur to me to comment on a coworkers personal appearance. Male or female. Not even something as innocuous as “That’s a nice shirt.” It’s just not done.
Ever since I started working in a professional environment the rules were do not talk politics, religion or sex at work. Amazing how many people didn’t get or ignored the memo, including me in the early years. I’ve dated and had one night stands with people from work and always regretted it as it changed our work relationship, but it never went to the point of harassment. Just damn awkward.
Still some people meet their spouse at work and everything works out fine. How can that happen if people are afraid to interact with the opposite (or same) sex?