# Menedez et al.: Now Is Not The Time To Sell Out America To BP **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 8, 2010, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/menedez-et-al-now-is-not-the-time-to-sell-out-america-to-bp/538730 "2010-05-08T06:44:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2010, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/menedez-et-al-now-is-not-the-time-to-sell-out-america-to-bp/538730/41 "2010-05-08T23:26:44Z")
Am I the only one who thinks **Richard Parker** and **Bricker** need their own regular head-to-head segment on Comedy Central? We could call it _Red Lawyer, Blue Lawyer_. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2010, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/menedez-et-al-now-is-not-the-time-to-sell-out-america-to-bp/538730/42 "2010-05-08T23:43:15Z")
Since they are both named Richard, how about _A Couple of Dicks Arguing_? ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2010, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/menedez-et-al-now-is-not-the-time-to-sell-out-america-to-bp/538730/43 "2010-05-08T23:59:53Z")
**Bricker** ’s not exactly the reddest lawyer around. More like…pink. And if I’m blue lawyer, wouldn’t ' **luci** have my back? So let’s call me violet. Our show will be called Pink Lawyer, Violet Lawyer, and we’ll mostly give fashion tips. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/menedez-et-al-now-is-not-the-time-to-sell-out-america-to-bp/538730/44 "2010-05-09T01:39:20Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > I read a right-leaning article about the spill which downplayed the effects. One of the points the author was celebrating was the fact that ecosystems generally bounce back from a spill like this in 30 years or so. A multi-billion dollar fishing industry x 30 years= 50+ billion. That is just the fishing costs. Imagine what this can do to private property. That assumes total destruction of the fishing industry in that area for 30 years. Highly unlikely. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/menedez-et-al-now-is-not-the-time-to-sell-out-america-to-bp/538730/45 "2010-05-09T05:27:05Z")
Fish oil production should rise dramatically. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/menedez-et-al-now-is-not-the-time-to-sell-out-america-to-bp/538730/46 "2010-05-09T17:41:46Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > That assumes total destruction of the fishing industry in that area for 30 years. Highly unlikely. Granted, but the $50 billion estimate of mine (yep, it is just a guess) is a lowball estimate. The affected areas have a better than $2 billion a year industry. If it turns out this thing whips around Florida and up the East Coast, fuggedaboudit. And who knows- the ecosystem was already under stress before this happened. It may just become a big sewer- it is not as if there will be a shitload of flora oxygenating the waters down there anytime soon. Who can say for sure? Anybody aware of any more reliable damage estimates to the fishing industry? Who can answer questions like ‘How long does it take an ancient oyster bed utterly wiped out by an oil spill to recover?’ Too soon to tell? Ah, maybe it is also too soon to cap the damages, no? Leave the cap off, send 'em the bill. ---
**Author:** ![padabe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/919ad9/32.png) [@padabe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/padabe)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/menedez-et-al-now-is-not-the-time-to-sell-out-america-to-bp/538730/47 "2010-05-09T18:04:48Z")
You’ve got a quick, cheap, and painless plan to eliminate our dependence on oil overnight? Or do you think that perhaps maybe you’re being a little ridiculous? ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2010, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/menedez-et-al-now-is-not-the-time-to-sell-out-america-to-bp/538730/48 "2010-05-09T20:24:05Z")
> [@padabe](#): > > Or do you think that perhaps maybe you’re being a little ridiculous? I can see that the damages may be divvied up in various ways before this is over. My position is that BP ought to be on the hook for their full share of it. $10 billion ain’t it. ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/menedez-et-al-now-is-not-the-time-to-sell-out-america-to-bp/538730/49 "2010-05-10T01:18:40Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > To put it simply, caps are good because they allow well operated companies with good asset backing to compete on the same playing field as low asset cowboys in high risk operations. You might think that BP have a lot of money and so they should pay it all over, but BP is only there because of the caps. If the caps go, so will BP and in future rigs like this will be operated only by cowboys with nothing to lose beyond what they are insured for, and their insurance policies will be limited (there ain’t no such thing as a policy for an infinite amount). Meanwhile, their trustworthiness will not be better than BP: it will be worse. Help me understand this. Let’s say that three States file a brief showing that the oil spill has cost a combined $30 billion dollars in damages . If BP is only going to pay $10 billion, who is going to come up with the $20 billion short fall? I’m curious, too. Do these caps persist for all industries? If BP hypothetically owned a nuclear facility that turned Philadelphia to Pittsburgh into a moon crater - assuming it was really accident - BP would only have to pay 10 billion dollars to the State of Pennsylvania? Right? ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/menedez-et-al-now-is-not-the-time-to-sell-out-america-to-bp/538730/50 "2010-05-10T01:31:09Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > Help me understand this. > > Let’s say that three States file a brief showing that the oil spill has cost a combined $30 billion dollars in damages . If BP is only going to pay $10 billion, who is going to come up with the $20 billion short fall? I’m curious, too. Do these caps persist for all industries? If BP hypothetically owned a nuclear facility that turned Philadelphia to Pittsburgh into a moon crater - assuming it was really accident - BP would only have to pay 10 billion dollars to the State of Pennsylvania? Right? See post #30. The extra comes out of a fund (which itself is only a billion or two and has to pay for things beyond the damage cap). Presumably once they’ve maxed out of the fund, it will be covered by the feds, who will then be repayed by a general tax on oil companies. As for **Princhester** ’s wider point, its the only semi-reasonable justification for the cap I’ve heard. I’m still fairly skeptical of it, however. The cap was only established ~1990, surely large oil companies were active in off-shore drilling before then? I guess to some extent, its just the feds forcing oil companies to buy insurance against oil spill damages. Presumably the “worse case scenario” spills are bad enough so that regular insurance companies wouldn’t be able to cover them, so the government itself manages the spill insurance. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/menedez-et-al-now-is-not-the-time-to-sell-out-america-to-bp/538730/51 "2010-05-10T01:56:18Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > The cap was only established ~1990, surely large oil companies were active in off-shore drilling before then? > [@](#): > > The Santa Barbara oil spill occurred in 1969 in the Santa Barbara Channel. The source was a January 28, 1969 blow-out on Union Oil’s Platform A, six miles offshore, in the Dos Cuadras Offshore Oil Field. Over a 10-day period, an estimated 80,000 to 100,000 barrels [1] of crude oil spilled into the channel and onto the beaches of Santa Barbara County in Southern California, fouling the coastline from Goleta to the Rincon, and all four of the northern Channel Islands. Upward of 10,000 birds were killed in the ecological disaster.[2] [1969 Santa Barbara oil spill](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1969_Santa_Barbara_oil_spill) ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/menedez-et-al-now-is-not-the-time-to-sell-out-america-to-bp/538730/52 "2010-05-10T02:04:47Z")
Just to clarify, **Squink** , you’re showing that large oil companies were involved in drilling and spilling prior to 1990? I’m not familiar with “Union Oil”, so I’m not really sure what your trying to demonstrate. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/menedez-et-al-now-is-not-the-time-to-sell-out-america-to-bp/538730/53 "2010-05-10T02:11:02Z")
[Union Oil/Unocal](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unocal_Corporation) used to be a major player. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/menedez-et-al-now-is-not-the-time-to-sell-out-america-to-bp/538730/54 "2010-05-10T02:24:15Z")
Gottcha, thanks. So yea, I’m skeptical lack of a cap kept pre-1990’s big name oil companies from drilling (or apparently, spilling) for oil of the US coast. ---
**Author:** ![cornflakes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9d8465/32.png) [@cornflakes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cornflakes)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/menedez-et-al-now-is-not-the-time-to-sell-out-america-to-bp/538730/55 "2010-05-10T04:46:24Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > [link](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12430867&postcount=12) Amen. I don’t have direct knowledge of the oil patch, but I have a little knowledge about Superfund sites, arguably a similar situation. My impression is that Superfund sites are disproportionately created by small businesses that are more willing to take the gamble that the regulatory agencies will overlook what their little operation is doing. As an alternative, the US could require something like bonding before a well is drilled. This would throw the responsibility back to the market and could allow both big and small companies to compete, but this also has its limits. Assuming that the choice is either liability caps or the big guys bowing out, then the best option is probably to have taxes on production pay for the government to be ready to clean up. It may not be the best answer, but the public is the only group that is guaranteed to still be around after the mess happens. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2010, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/menedez-et-al-now-is-not-the-time-to-sell-out-america-to-bp/538730/56 "2010-05-11T04:06:12Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > My view on caps of this nature is ambivalent. On the one hand they are good long term policy (which is why they exist) and on the other hand they are utterly unsaleable to the lay public after a big incident like the present one. This leads to extra legal pressures (such as will be put on BP here) and calls for retrospective legislation etc. It also means that justice isn’t seen to be done, whether it is or not. These things are bad for the rule of law generally and perhaps it’s better to just have no caps even if that is bad long term policy. > > To put it simply, caps are good because they allow well operated companies with good asset backing to compete on the same playing field as low asset cowboys in high risk operations. You might think that BP have a lot of money and so they should pay it all over, but BP is only there because of the caps. If the caps go, so will BP and in future rigs like this will be operated only by cowboys with nothing to lose beyond what they are insured for, and their insurance policies will be limited (there ain’t no such thing as a policy for an infinite amount). Meanwhile, their trustworthiness will not be better than BP: it will be worse. > > As I understand it Exxon paid out a lot of money over the Valdez. You can argue all day about whether it was enough and how long they took to pay and so on but in the end they paid an amount that not many companies \*could \*pay. And with no caps, Exxons and BP’s just won’t be in the game: it will be Lucky Ocean Company SA of Panama who own one ship worth a few tens of millions, and an insurance policy to the lawful minimum and if they have a big spill those assets will be exhausted and then that will be that. Maybe they’d have as good crews as a reasonably well run multinational and as much (or little) chance of causing a big spill. Maybe. Personally I doubt it. I meant to comment on this but was too busy. The rhetoric is more persuasive than most, however, the entire project fails for lack of comprehensiveness in the term ‘good long-term policy’. Blowout disasters _can’t_ happen. Period. BP has to go. BP’s liability cap needs to be equal to their cap on political contributions. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/menedez-et-al-now-is-not-the-time-to-sell-out-america-to-bp/538730/57 "2010-05-12T03:53:54Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > Blowout disasters _can’t_ happen. Period. BP has to go. Zero risk is just rhetoric much beloved of people who don’t actually have any responsibility for achieving anything and consequently don’t have to concern themselves with the fact that the only way to achieve zero risk is to do nothing at all ever. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/menedez-et-al-now-is-not-the-time-to-sell-out-america-to-bp/538730/58 "2010-05-12T03:57:43Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > Zero risk is just rhetoric much beloved of people who don’t actually have any responsibility for achieving anything and consequently don’t have to concern themselves with the fact that the only way to achieve zero risk is to do nothing at all ever. Its a nice stab, but sorry. You lose. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/menedez-et-al-now-is-not-the-time-to-sell-out-america-to-bp/538730/59 "2010-05-12T04:21:56Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > Its a nice stab, but sorry. You lose. Oh. Damn. Thanks for letting me know anyway. In future if I need to know whether I’ve won or lost I’ll be sure to check with you from now on. Guys, take note: **Try2B Comprehensive** is the decider on whether any of us have won or lost. I think we should all try to respect that. Agreed? ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2010, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/menedez-et-al-now-is-not-the-time-to-sell-out-america-to-bp/538730/60 "2010-05-12T05:04:55Z")
You’re comparing preparing for a blowout to some unachievable zero risk mathematical model?? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/menedez-et-al-now-is-not-the-time-to-sell-out-america-to-bp/538730.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/menedez-et-al-now-is-not-the-time-to-sell-out-america-to-bp/538730.md?page=4)